Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in WWII, says Polish PM
Evening Standard ^ | June 21, 2007

Posted on 06/21/2007 10:54:10 AM PDT by RWR8189

The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.

In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.

"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.

"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."

The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit.

A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more.

Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people.

Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.

The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.

Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland.

"You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."

It sets the scene for a rancorous dinner tonight when leaders of the 27 EU states need to thrash out a series of disputes to avoid a crisis.

Mr Blair, notching up his 47th EU summit, told his Cabinet in London that he was prepared to walk away from the table unless his own demands were met in full.

Before flying out, he and Gordon Brown had telephone talks with Mrs Merkel - indicating that Mr Brown is intensely involved in the negotiations.

Mr Blair came under fire for trying to water down the EU's "son of constitution" treaty. Mr Juncker a veteran federalist, fumed: "We will not stand by and see all the substance removed from the treaty."

New French president Nicolas Sarkozy said there were multiple disputes.

"We don't just have problems with Poland," he said. "We have problems with the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, a little bit with the Czech Republic. The problems are numerous."

Privately, No 10 indicated that Mr Blair wanted his demands met "100 per cent". But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso retorted: "All the leaders say that they want 100 per cent achievement. But in Europe you've got to be reasonable and rational.

"At the end there has to be some, let's say, agreement."

Mrs Merkel sent an 11th-hour letter pleading with the leaders to compromise, so that Europe could move on from inwardlooking disputes to pressing issues such as climate change, energy supplies and globalisation.

"The European public now expects us to put the necessary reforms of the Union in hand," she wrote. "The time has now come to set out the roadmap for the impending reform of the treaties."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: affirmativeaction; crimes; eu; germany; kaczynski; poland; racism; reparations; ww2
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 251-273 next last
To: CarrotAndStick
Or were they just "not-so-special" people?

Its why I said, I din't want to see it going on for infinity, and wasn't going that far, the question is what is the limitations going to be?

101 posted on 06/21/2007 1:44:43 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: Michael81Dus
How does Germany BENEFIT from WW2? Do you think more innocents should have died? The complete destruction of the big cities wasn´t enough? It´s not that no Germans died during WW2.

As the saying goes, "just cuz you lose some of your boys stealing diamonds, doesn't mean your off the hook, or get to keep the diamonds"

102 posted on 06/21/2007 1:46:09 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: vox_PL

The purple area corresponds to the assumed Urheimat (Samara culture, Sredny Stog culture). The red area corresponds to the area which may have been settled by Indo-European-speaking peoples up to ca. 2500 BC; the orange area to 1000 BC.

http://www.tcnj.edu/~fickas3/index.htm

103 posted on 06/21/2007 1:47:24 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 98 | View Replies]

To: Sonny M
The question is what is the limitations going to be?

To which, an answer can never be found.

104 posted on 06/21/2007 1:49:09 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: RWR8189

Ya gotta love Poland. They tell it like it is.


105 posted on 06/21/2007 1:52:34 PM PDT by shekkian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HaveHadEnough
This is about reparations. It is about making people who had nothing to do with WWII pay for the crimes of the generation that caused it.

Y'know, I was buying Poland's argument, until I saw yours. You're exactly right. The time to settle up is right after the war, and events that occur some sixty years later should have had the reparations figured into them.

Poland's present day economic situation comes from its time spent under communism, perhaps there should be reparations paid by Russia to the former Warsaw Pact nations. Now that's within recent history.

106 posted on 06/21/2007 1:55:50 PM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: RWR8189

As a person of German descent, I encourage Poles to get down to the business of making more Poles as quickly as possible. I hear Polish women are lovely and I’m sure that Polish men desire no help from either the Germans or Russians in this matter.


107 posted on 06/21/2007 2:07:13 PM PDT by Theophilus (Nothing can make Americans safer than to stop aborting them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RWR8189

Germany and France have to worst run governments in the EU. Everyone in the EU would be better off if they had less power than say Lichtenstin or Monaco, not more power.


108 posted on 06/21/2007 2:29:08 PM PDT by monday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: skimbell
“If the Poles wa-wa enough about this, they stand a pretty good chance of getting the Germans to start feeling all guilty. Just a hop, skip and a jump to reparations from that point.”

On the other hand, anyone who thinks Germany and France should have more votes than any other country in the EU just because they are larger needs to have their head examined. Germany and France are the worst run socialist cess pools in the EU.

109 posted on 06/21/2007 2:34:56 PM PDT by monday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: monday
On the other hand, anyone who thinks Germany and France should have more votes than any other country in the EU just because they are larger needs to have their head examined. Germany and France are the worst run socialist cess pools in the EU.

Compared to the Socialist People's Republic of Poland? *LOL



Source: Heritage.org
110 posted on 06/21/2007 2:55:57 PM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: wolf78; monday
We are moving slowly ahead. Kaczynski’s are great for sure but they are not as bad as some people here claim.

Poland: Sticking with fiscal conservatism

Government passes Kluska Packet The government Tuesday passed the so-called Kluska packet of liberal business laws. The new legislation will come in force next autumn.

111 posted on 06/21/2007 3:09:58 PM PDT by Lukasz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 110 | View Replies]

To: wolf78
And there would also be another 25 million Germans living in Pomerania and Silesia. Should these also be counted?

Nearly all ethnic Germans who found themselves living on the Polish side of the post-war border moved back to Germany. Hence Germany's population did not decline nearly as much as Poland's as a result of the war, which a Germany started, I might add.

I mean, is it possible to be any more stupid than the Kaczynski twins?

Apparently yes, judging by your comments.

112 posted on 06/21/2007 3:13:29 PM PDT by curiosity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: hunter112
The time to settle up is right after the war, and events that occur some sixty years later should have had the reparations figured into them.

The Poles would have loved to have settled up after the war. Unfortunately, the Soviet Union wouldn't let them.

113 posted on 06/21/2007 3:14:56 PM PDT by curiosity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: wolf78
Why are you turning this into a discussion about land? That's not Kaczynski's, or anyone else's point.

This is an issue about how much extra power is given to countries with larger populations. This is the same argument the founding fathers had about deciding the composition of the legislative branch. There are a whole host of reasons why apportioning power strictly on the basis of population is a bad idea (which is why we have a Senate). Kaczynski has simply used a dramatic means of illustrating this point.

Where did Kaczynski ask for reparations? He didn't, so stop acting like he did.

114 posted on 06/21/2007 3:24:34 PM PDT by curiosity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: Sensei Ern

LOL


115 posted on 06/21/2007 3:32:21 PM PDT by tetuhe1898
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: curiosity
Where did Kaczynski ask for reparations? He didn't, so stop acting like he did.

He is asking for reparations. You can't get much plainer than this:

"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.

He's not saying that there is a better way to divide power. He wants his pound of flesh, and Germany is a more convenient target than the Soviet Union.
116 posted on 06/21/2007 3:44:43 PM PDT by HaveHadEnough
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: curiosity
Why are you turning this into a discussion about land? That's not Kaczynski's, or anyone else's point.

I never did that. I just mockingly presented a counterargument as stupid as that of the Polish marxists-in-chief. If you had quoted my complete posting the irony would have been hard to overlook. The point is: Historical revisionism never works. Sure: Without WWII Poland's demographic would look different. Without Nazi idiocy Germany would also have been the first country to possess nuclear weapons (Oppenheimer would probably have stayed in Oppenheim). Who knows what Europe would look like today as a result of that??

There are a whole host of reasons why apportioning power strictly on the basis of population is a bad idea (which is why we have a Senate).

Actually, the compromise proposal advocated by the German side includes exactly that: A double majority of countries and population (and not population alone! Does nobody actually check facts?). The Polish demand (square root) does away with exactly that principle.

Kaczynski has simply used a dramatic means of illustrating this point.

As I explained to you: They have no point at all. It's just nationalistic posturing.

Where did Kaczynski ask for reparations? He didn't, so stop acting like he did.

I never did that. I just reserve my right to call bullsh*t when something smells like bullsh*t.
117 posted on 06/21/2007 3:59:04 PM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: curiosity
Hence Germany's population did not decline nearly as much as Poland's as a result of the war, which a Germany started, I might add.

Actually Germany lost even more people as a result of the war than Poland did. Of cause, speaking in generalized terms Germany started the war and Poland was a victim, but the whole what-a-big-country-we-would-be-if-you-did-not-attack-us concept is fallacious and can lead only to a dead end. Past is past, and it's not about to change.

118 posted on 06/21/2007 4:01:41 PM PDT by tetuhe1898
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

Comment #119 Removed by Moderator

To: vox_PL
So help us God!
But then again, shouldn't we finally decide... are we going to integrate with the rest of Europe in the spirit of EU or just leave it altogether? I mean.. true, Germans did start the war, Soviets also had their share of genocides on their hands, and this and that... but shouldn't we move on and as I say "at least try to be civil to each other?"

A little more goodwill and politness on all parts would be in order IMO.

As for the reparations, if it would be up to me I'd say to our German friends, bring some landjagers (my all time favorites) and spaten bier and we'll call it even... I'll bring some vodka to the table and we can discuss politics then... anybody up for it?
120 posted on 06/21/2007 5:01:27 PM PDT by Konrad_PL (Still Polish.... still proud ;))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 119 | View Replies]

To: RWR8189; wideawake
It's actually refreshing to see Germany being picked on for its Nazi past by a shamefully forgotten (and politically incorrect) victim. For years the International Elite Left has used Nazi Germany as its supreme bugbear and excuse for everything it wants to do (while the Nazis' primary victims, the Jews, have received all the resentment for this). Add on top of this all those "palaeos" who want to rewrite history and people begin to forget what an imperialistic rampage the Nazis actually embarked on almost seventy years ago (goodness knows, the only thing the ADL seems to find wrong with the Nazis is that they were "bigots").

This could get very interesting.

121 posted on 06/21/2007 5:09:05 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator ( . . . veyiqchu 'eleykha farah 'adummah temimah, 'asher 'ein-bah mum, 'asher lo'-`alah `aleyha `ol.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
The Poles make a strong point: Germany should not get rewarded with extra political clout because they were able to murder millions of their neighbors' citizens.

This isn't about reparations or whining - it's about equity.

You're not supposed to be able to profit from crime.

I wholeheartedly agree! Unfortunately the Cold War mitigated the punishment dished out to Germany and Japan (though Germany was divided and Japan disarmed). And I'm not saying that we could afford to ignore the Russians and let the Axis Powers have it full tilt, but I imagine that Germany and Japan would be far more rehabilitated (and Japan is still a notorious revisionist nation) had we not had to switch to opposing the Russians so suddenly.

Of course, Germany and Japan were certainly punished more than Russia ever will be, and that's not just either.

122 posted on 06/21/2007 5:15:49 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator ( . . . veyiqchu 'eleykha farah 'adummah temimah, 'asher 'ein-bah mum, 'asher lo'-`alah `aleyha `ol.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: wideawake; CarrotAndStick; Sonny M; Zionist Conspirator
The Poles make a strong point: Germany should not get rewarded with extra political clout because they were able to murder millions of their neighbors' citizens. This isn't about reparations or whining - it's about equity. You're not supposed to be able to profit from crime.

To insist on a kind of "justice" the Polish leadership is not able to enforce, leaves a very weak impression. It only reveals the actual insignificance of the Kaczynski brothers, since they are obviously unable to verify the effective importance of their country if they are forced to construct such moronic argumentations. WWII is over since 60 years and most of the participants (no matter if we speak about victims or offenders) are dust. It is boring to beat a dead horse*.

Although this time they are obviously still not among the decisive nations in Europe, the Poles could make a good deal since other, bigger and more powerful countries want to keep them in the boat. We (the other Europeans) all know that there will be a time without this funny Polish president and his twin brother. Therefore the whining of the twins might be a nuisance but is de facto irrelevant. Obviously a strange form of folklore.

* I do not deny the nameless crimes of German forces in Poland but I doubt their actual political relevance.

123 posted on 06/21/2007 5:48:15 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (In varietate concordia!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Atlantic Bridge
To insist on a kind of "justice" the Polish leadership is not able to enforce, leaves a very weak impression. It only reveals the actual insignificance of the Kaczynski brothers, since they are obviously unable to verify the effective importance of their country if they are forced to construct such moronic argumentations. WWII is over since 60 years and most of the participants (no matter if we speak about victims or offenders) are dust. It is boring to beat a dead horse*.

What Germany did, was shoot Polands horses, then argue that Germany should handle the transportation since Poland has no horses. Its that kind of arguement.

I had a better description of it in post #100.

124 posted on 06/21/2007 5:54:38 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 123 | View Replies]

To: Sonny M
So what? It happend a long time ago. The Romans also killed the German, French, African, Jewish and etc. etc. etc. tribes and conquered large parts of Europe.

You should tell Prodi that it is time to pay the bill. :-)))

125 posted on 06/21/2007 6:00:13 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (In varietate concordia!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

To: curiosity
The Poles would have loved to have settled up after the war. Unfortunately, the Soviet Union wouldn't let them.

Very true. Another negative effect of not taking Patton's advice, and knocking off the Russkies when they were down, and we were coming on strong.

126 posted on 06/21/2007 6:01:04 PM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: Sonny M
oderint dum metuant

Ave America! Lucrifacturi te salutant!

127 posted on 06/21/2007 6:05:30 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (In varietate concordia!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

Comment #128 Removed by Moderator

To: PAR35
Suggested compromise - give Poland the extra votes, and move the borders back to their 1938 locations. Everyone should be happy with that, shouldn’t they?

I don't think Ukraine/Russia would ... they would have to give back a hell of a lot of land to Poland

129 posted on 06/21/2007 6:29:24 PM PDT by tophat9000 (My 2008 grassroots Republican platform: Build the fence, enforce the laws, and win the damm WAR!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Atlantic Bridge
So what? It happend a long time ago.

I guess time is the question here, some folks would argue 9/11 happened "a long long time ago".

Its also not like victims and perpetrators are not still alive, to either be punished or benefit.

130 posted on 06/21/2007 6:37:33 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 125 | View Replies]

To: ozzymandus; PAR35; wolf78; wideawake
Poland got 40,000 square miles of German territory. Apparently the “history obsessed” twins aren’t aware of that

And lost 70,000 square miles to Soviet Union for a net post war loss of 30,000 square miles... bottom line, blame Germany, blame the Soviet Union, but Poland didn't attack any one and got screw at the beginning of the war and got screw at the end of the war ...

--------------

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005599

Poland's eastern border was moved westward and, as a result, Poland lost more than 70,000 square miles of territory to the Soviet Union. Poland was compensated, however, with German territory from the provinces of Silesia, Pomerania, and the southern part of East Prussia; her western border (as determined at the July 1945 Potsdam conference) would run along the line of the Oder and Neisse Rivers. Thus, Poland received more than 40,000 square miles of territory from Germany, including Silesian coal mines and a Baltic Sea coastline. This territorial shift of Polish borders moved the country decisively westward, closer to the heart of Europe. Nevertheless, Poland emerged from World War II slightly reduced in size from its 1939 boundaries.

Link to Map of Poland in 1945

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_nm.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005599&MediaId=2373

131 posted on 06/21/2007 6:58:52 PM PDT by tophat9000 (My 2008 grassroots Republican platform: Build the fence, enforce the laws, and win the damm WAR!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: Sonny M
Its also not like victims and perpetrators are not still alive, to either be punished or benefit.

The simple truth is: Very few perpetrators still are. Someone who was 18 in 1945 is 80 now. And most of these young ones were just cannon fodder. So realistically we are talking about 90-95 years and older.


132 posted on 06/21/2007 7:11:52 PM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: tophat9000
And lost 70,000 square miles to Soviet Union for a net post war loss of 30,000 square miles... bottom line, blame Germany, blame the Soviet Union, but Poland didn't attack any one and got screw at the beginning of the war and got screw at the end of the war ...

Noone is blaming Poland for anything, that would be idiotic. But it's just as stupid to hold the German chancellor (Angela Merkel, born 1954) responsible for something she had no part in.
133 posted on 06/21/2007 7:16:57 PM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 131 | View Replies]

To: wolf78
Well you point was

Sure. And there would also be another 25 million Germans living in Pomerania and Silesia. Should these also be counted?

Your point would seem that Poland had a net gain after the war at Germany expense in both in territory and or population ...

Yet the reality is Poland had a net loss of territory of 30,000 square miles and it's population "permanently" reduced by the German policy to create German "living space"... also note that Poland did not gain the German population of Pomerania and Silesia as the Soviet Union forcibly moved them inside the new postwar German border

An in the scheme of things forcible population relocation beats forcible population reduction ... as the dead don't vote (there not Dems) or reproduce...so it does effect relative power in the new EU...

Poland main gripe is as legitimate an small population state's in the US with the added factor that it was one of there New Co-EU states that thinned out there potential Polish EU voting power ...

If Texas invaded Arkansan, after the dust settled Arkansan would at the very least, be pissy, probably for quite a few years, about having less Congressmen in the house and less political clout, money, etc. at the Federal level because of a forcible reduced population by some one they are now being asked to share population proportional voting power with in that same Federal government

134 posted on 06/21/2007 8:18:03 PM PDT by tophat9000 (My 2008 grassroots Republican platform: Build the fence, enforce the laws, and win the damm WAR!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: vox_PL
We don't need Germany to be in Europe, either we don't need their money. I despise it just like 30 silver coins of Judas. I'd rather die than take any German subsidy, or so. To sum up - the whole of Europe YES, except for Germany. That's all.

With all due respect to your pride, but the times are a changing. You know very well that contemporary Germany is not the country you have to fear. Beside of that it is not Poland to decide wheter Germany is a member of the European family or not.

The problem might be that Germany is a country you Poles export/import roundabout 30% to/from while Germany exports/imports roundabout 3% to/from Poland. The fact is, that Poland is completely dependent from the access to the German market. If you would not be allowed to do so, Poland will fall into the economical status of Belarus (the "North Korea" of Europe) while Germany is for sure not reliant on Poland or its markets (BuHuHaHa!). I also do not like the comparisons between our countries with the US/Mexican situation but economically they hit the point for sure. There are many nations of Europe who want to cooperate with us because they simply like us as their reliable partner. If you Poles do not want to do this is okay with me. You even can try to convince the rest of Europe. Just ask the EU-nations which partner is more important to them. Poland or Germany. You should start with your direct neighbour, the Czechs.

:-)

Nevertheless your President well advised to leave this summit and tell everbody that he want absolutely no connection to my country. He even can close the boarder. No problem. Germany will survive it for sure. If you search for friends in your neighbourhood you can turn to Russia then. Have fun with Puttie Pooth.

135 posted on 06/21/2007 8:30:36 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (In varietate concordia!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 128 | View Replies]

To: tophat9000
Your point would seem that Poland had a net gain after the war at Germany expense in both in territory and or population ...

My point was: Such calculations are nonsense per se. What I said was that if you argue that without WWII Poland would have a population of 66 million today, you could also argue that without WWII a larger Germany could feed 100+ million. Both arguments are equally true (or not). Why? Because both are pure speculation.

Got it now?

And to use such phantasy numbers contributes nil to the discussion at hand. It's just BS.

An in the scheme of things forcible population relocation beats forcible population reduction ...

Except for the 2.2 million who just "got lost" while being relocated...
136 posted on 06/21/2007 8:43:06 PM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 134 | View Replies]

To: Atlantic Bridge
If you search for friends in your neighbourhood you can turn to Russia then. Have fun with Puttie Pooth.

Well, Puttie Poot is not an option here, but there are other neighbors to have fun with - for instance Ukraine, Baltic states and Georgia. Potentially they could make up a strong alliance supported by the USA or even form their own Eastern European Union (EEU) within or outside the EU with uncertain results. The near future of Europe seems to be a damned interesting show!

137 posted on 06/21/2007 9:38:14 PM PDT by tetuhe1898
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 135 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator

Accurate. I agree with a post here that said that Poland suffered more than any nation during and after WWII. It’s been less than two decades that Poland is free and the people are not forgetting yet. My Dad (WWII Vet) said that when Russia/Soviet army freed Poland from Nazi Germany, the people felt they went from bad (Nazi) to worse (Soviets). Poland, the people, hoped/prayed that the US or Britain would be the military that freed them from the Nazis. They suffered under Soviet rule more than they did under Nazi Germany. History shows that, too.

This isn’t about reparations, imo. They fought too long and too hard for many decades after WWII. The people of this country never surrendered (and they got screwed with Yalta) even when the war was long over for Europe. The Soviet Union was able to pacify, to an extent, all of the countries they controlled, but never Poland. I have such respect for Poland and tend to side with them on this.


138 posted on 06/21/2007 10:11:49 PM PDT by Twink
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: wolf78
The simple truth is: Very few perpetrators still are. Someone who was 18 in 1945 is 80 now. And most of these young ones were just cannon fodder. So realistically we are talking about 90-95 years and older.

Point taken, my gripe is only that I see it as germany, trying to take advantage of a situation, they caused in the first place, to get similiar results, that they tried to to get earlier.

To me, if you did something wrong, and you know it was wrong, and a situation arises later on, that you helped create, you should not now make rules that benefit you from prior bad acts.

The question here is basically time, as in how much time, or how little, which is a big question, I made a joke about the whole thing in post #100.

In some sense, I see this is as Germany trying to do the political opposite (in spirit) of what the "son of sam" law does .

139 posted on 06/21/2007 10:47:38 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies]

To: tetuhe1898
Well, Puttie Poot is not an option here, but there are other neighbors to have fun with - for instance Ukraine, Baltic states and Georgia. Potentially they could make up a strong alliance supported by the USA or even form their own Eastern European Union (EEU) within or outside the EU with uncertain results.

My suggestion of Putin was of cause only sarcasm.

The problem for Poland is that the Balts, Georgia or the Ukraine might be pleasant neighbours, but they are a matter of complete unimportance since those nations do not offer any economical potence. Their potential of development is -due to the alarmingly shrinking population- quite limited. The US only play a role in security matters for the Poles. Economically they are also completely irrelevant for them. The US can and want not afford a second Israel to subsidize. Therefore Poland is completely dependend on western Europe and particulary on Germany.

That are the facts.

This is the reason why we Germans understand the noisy appearance of the leading twins of Poland as just a smeary show to cache their own irrelevance and the potential weakness of their country. The sad thing is that it could be so easy. With a littlebit more capitalism and a intelligent foreign policy Poland could leave the 2nd/3rd world to become a real industrial 1rd world nation. Now they are struck in their national pride and in dumb socialism.

As I said: Sad.

140 posted on 06/21/2007 10:50:29 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (In varieatate concordia!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]

To: Sonny M

You have no idea what´s the difference betweeen individual and collective guilt, have you? And even worse for your position: The war ended 62 years ago.


141 posted on 06/21/2007 11:34:31 PM PDT by Michael81Dus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies]

To: curiosity; hunter112

Well, in the relation to Germany, Poland got a settlement: one third of Germany´s territory (of 1937). It´s not Germany´s fault that the Soviets took about the same size of Poland´s East. They should complain in Moscow, not Berlin.


142 posted on 06/21/2007 11:38:07 PM PDT by Michael81Dus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: Atlantic Bridge; Lukasz

It IS sad. In fact, I have underestimated the power of the twins to damage the German-Polish relationship. Here, the media is repeating all over again that the twins DO NOT represent a majority of the Polish people with regard to the relations with Germany. I hope the media is right.


143 posted on 06/21/2007 11:42:37 PM PDT by Michael81Dus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 140 | View Replies]

To: Jedi Master Pikachu
Poland deserves representation proportional to its current population in the EU parliament.

And how big would the United States be if it won the War of 1812, took over all of Mexico after the Mexican-American War, and Cuba and the Philippines became states some time after the Spanish-American War? Even had Congress accepted that crazy American who temporarily took over Nicaragua and tried to offer it to the United States.

While on the topic of hypothetical populations.

144 posted on 06/22/2007 12:12:15 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: vox_PL
While you probably didn't intend for that comment to be racist, it was.

Many Americans who discover that they have a bit of African blood find that discovery difficult, when they shouldn't.

If you have German blood, so what? That doesn't make you less Polish.

145 posted on 06/22/2007 12:18:04 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 98 | View Replies]

To: Jedi Master Pikachu

Exactly. And by the way, it’s not many, it would most likely be a lot with ‘African’ blood in them, yet not knowing it.

When things such as these are taboo, it is pushed under the rug much too often, leading to false beliefs of genetic purity.


146 posted on 06/22/2007 12:36:26 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: Michael81Dus
"The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.

The twins are more motivated by their real life experiences under Communism.

They waited their entire lives to throw off the shackels of Socialism only to find themselves forced by neo-,third way EuroSocialists and the Clinton Socialists into the EU.

The twins have been absolute adorers of The Constitution of The United States of America and capitalist free enterprise under the rule of law. Oh, they like property rights, contracts, and guns, too.

yitbos

147 posted on 06/22/2007 12:37:36 AM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: skimbell

Off topic post about your comment: for the Americas, some estimates range from about 50% (one of the most common) to a whopping 95% of the Amerindian population dying as an effect of European contact. Much of this was due to diseases the Europeans unwittingly brought, but some was due to warfare and harsh slavery conditions at the hands of the Europeans.


148 posted on 06/22/2007 1:40:12 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
Why the Democrats?

By your logic, it should be the Nazis of Germany who should pay, not the entire German populations. But there are no (longer) Nazis (officially) in Germany.

So, using your Germany/Poland view and analogy, it should be the former segregationist states who should pay (and it wasn't only the Democrat-dominated South--miscegenation was illegal in California until relatively recently.

149 posted on 06/22/2007 1:44:01 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Sonny M
Germany also has a large population in part because of forced resettlement of ethnic Germans from other countries such as Poland after the war.
150 posted on 06/22/2007 1:45:56 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 251-273 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson