Skip to comments.We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in WWII, says Polish PM
Posted on 06/21/2007 10:54:10 AM PDT by RWR8189
The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.
In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.
"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.
"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."
The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit.
A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more.
Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people.
Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.
The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.
Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland.
"You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."
It sets the scene for a rancorous dinner tonight when leaders of the 27 EU states need to thrash out a series of disputes to avoid a crisis.
Mr Blair, notching up his 47th EU summit, told his Cabinet in London that he was prepared to walk away from the table unless his own demands were met in full.
Before flying out, he and Gordon Brown had telephone talks with Mrs Merkel - indicating that Mr Brown is intensely involved in the negotiations.
Mr Blair came under fire for trying to water down the EU's "son of constitution" treaty. Mr Juncker a veteran federalist, fumed: "We will not stand by and see all the substance removed from the treaty."
New French president Nicolas Sarkozy said there were multiple disputes.
"We don't just have problems with Poland," he said. "We have problems with the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, a little bit with the Czech Republic. The problems are numerous."
Privately, No 10 indicated that Mr Blair wanted his demands met "100 per cent". But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso retorted: "All the leaders say that they want 100 per cent achievement. But in Europe you've got to be reasonable and rational.
"At the end there has to be some, let's say, agreement."
Mrs Merkel sent an 11th-hour letter pleading with the leaders to compromise, so that Europe could move on from inwardlooking disputes to pressing issues such as climate change, energy supplies and globalisation.
"The European public now expects us to put the necessary reforms of the Union in hand," she wrote. "The time has now come to set out the roadmap for the impending reform of the treaties."
You have no idea what´s the difference betweeen individual and collective guilt, have you? And even worse for your position: The war ended 62 years ago.
Well, in the relation to Germany, Poland got a settlement: one third of Germany´s territory (of 1937). It´s not Germany´s fault that the Soviets took about the same size of Poland´s East. They should complain in Moscow, not Berlin.
It IS sad. In fact, I have underestimated the power of the twins to damage the German-Polish relationship. Here, the media is repeating all over again that the twins DO NOT represent a majority of the Polish people with regard to the relations with Germany. I hope the media is right.
And how big would the United States be if it won the War of 1812, took over all of Mexico after the Mexican-American War, and Cuba and the Philippines became states some time after the Spanish-American War? Even had Congress accepted that crazy American who temporarily took over Nicaragua and tried to offer it to the United States.
While on the topic of hypothetical populations.
Many Americans who discover that they have a bit of African blood find that discovery difficult, when they shouldn't.
If you have German blood, so what? That doesn't make you less Polish.
Exactly. And by the way, it’s not many, it would most likely be a lot with ‘African’ blood in them, yet not knowing it.
When things such as these are taboo, it is pushed under the rug much too often, leading to false beliefs of genetic purity.
The twins are more motivated by their real life experiences under Communism.
They waited their entire lives to throw off the shackels of Socialism only to find themselves forced by neo-,third way EuroSocialists and the Clinton Socialists into the EU.
The twins have been absolute adorers of The Constitution of The United States of America and capitalist free enterprise under the rule of law. Oh, they like property rights, contracts, and guns, too.
Off topic post about your comment: for the Americas, some estimates range from about 50% (one of the most common) to a whopping 95% of the Amerindian population dying as an effect of European contact. Much of this was due to diseases the Europeans unwittingly brought, but some was due to warfare and harsh slavery conditions at the hands of the Europeans.
By your logic, it should be the Nazis of Germany who should pay, not the entire German populations. But there are no (longer) Nazis (officially) in Germany.
So, using your Germany/Poland view and analogy, it should be the former segregationist states who should pay (and it wasn't only the Democrat-dominated South--miscegenation was illegal in California until relatively recently.
Germany acted very badly in World War 2, and Poland's population today might have been higher had the Nazis not killed many Poles. But they did, and today Poland is a medium sized country (population) and Germany is a large one. Germany should have more votes in the parliament to represent the Germans living in the EU today.
The EU parliament has relatively little power, though the constitution--and potentially this new treaty--could change that. The EU Commission makes most of the EU's rules, and the Commissioners are selected by the member states' national governments.
The Benelux countries and much of Germany should be light green, and more of North Africa should be colored. Also more of the Crimea.
So should tiny Austria be given many more votes, including all of Hungary's? (rhetorical).
You're arguing that Germans, many of whom were not involved in World War 2, should be proportionally less represented in the parliament, and Poland should be over-represented to compensate for those killed in World War 2.
So you're supporting taking from the descendants of the 'bad guys' and giving to the descendants of the 'good guys.'
Can you explain the German phrase? You’re translation was helpful, but it still (personally) doesn’t make much sense with the rest of your post.
You picked two of the few Western European countries which aren’t in the EU (Lichtenstein and Monaco). You could use Luxembourg and Ireland, though for two small countries with strong economies.
Japan basically went almost unpunished (culturally) after the war. Germany was definitely punished—to the point that many Germans today feel as though they are somehow responsible for what their ancestors did.
Considering most Americans would be able to spell Arkansas, guessing that you aren't American. Apologies if that isn't the case.
Seem to be almost the only freeper that posts so much in a row.