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We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in WWII, says Polish PM
Evening Standard ^ | June 21, 2007

Posted on 06/21/2007 10:54:10 AM PDT by RWR8189

The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.

In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.

"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.

"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."

The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit.

A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more.

Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people.

Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.

The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.

Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland.

"You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."

It sets the scene for a rancorous dinner tonight when leaders of the 27 EU states need to thrash out a series of disputes to avoid a crisis.

Mr Blair, notching up his 47th EU summit, told his Cabinet in London that he was prepared to walk away from the table unless his own demands were met in full.

Before flying out, he and Gordon Brown had telephone talks with Mrs Merkel - indicating that Mr Brown is intensely involved in the negotiations.

Mr Blair came under fire for trying to water down the EU's "son of constitution" treaty. Mr Juncker a veteran federalist, fumed: "We will not stand by and see all the substance removed from the treaty."

New French president Nicolas Sarkozy said there were multiple disputes.

"We don't just have problems with Poland," he said. "We have problems with the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, a little bit with the Czech Republic. The problems are numerous."

Privately, No 10 indicated that Mr Blair wanted his demands met "100 per cent". But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso retorted: "All the leaders say that they want 100 per cent achievement. But in Europe you've got to be reasonable and rational.

"At the end there has to be some, let's say, agreement."

Mrs Merkel sent an 11th-hour letter pleading with the leaders to compromise, so that Europe could move on from inwardlooking disputes to pressing issues such as climate change, energy supplies and globalisation.

"The European public now expects us to put the necessary reforms of the Union in hand," she wrote. "The time has now come to set out the roadmap for the impending reform of the treaties."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: affirmativeaction; crimes; eu; germany; kaczynski; poland; racism; reparations; ww2
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To: SolidWood
The point of this is to give voting rights in the EU parliament. The parliament should reflect the current population of the EU member states, and current issues.

Germany acted very badly in World War 2, and Poland's population today might have been higher had the Nazis not killed many Poles. But they did, and today Poland is a medium sized country (population) and Germany is a large one. Germany should have more votes in the parliament to represent the Germans living in the EU today.

151 posted on 06/22/2007 1:52:42 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: wideawake
The EU parliament isn't all that analogous to the House of Representatives, and the EU Commission definitely isn't all that analogous to the Senate (in its present, directly voted form), because the EU is not yet a single country, and its member states still wield powers which American states do not.

The EU parliament has relatively little power, though the constitution--and potentially this new treaty--could change that. The EU Commission makes most of the EU's rules, and the Commissioners are selected by the member states' national governments.

152 posted on 06/22/2007 1:57:14 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: thackney

The Benelux countries and much of Germany should be light green, and more of North Africa should be colored. Also more of the Crimea.


153 posted on 06/22/2007 1:58:54 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: dfwgator
The Austrian death toll from World War 1 was also very.....impressive. Especially since many of those killed were child-bearing aged men (normally considered child-bearing age), and Austria lost the Hungary part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

So should tiny Austria be given many more votes, including all of Hungary's? (rhetorical).

154 posted on 06/22/2007 2:01:38 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: Sonny M
You might not consider it to be so, but you are advocating reparations--just not one of the monetary sort.

You're arguing that Germans, many of whom were not involved in World War 2, should be proportionally less represented in the parliament, and Poland should be over-represented to compensate for those killed in World War 2.

So you're supporting taking from the descendants of the 'bad guys' and giving to the descendants of the 'good guys.'

155 posted on 06/22/2007 2:08:08 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: wolf78

Can you explain the German phrase? You’re translation was helpful, but it still (personally) doesn’t make much sense with the rest of your post.


156 posted on 06/22/2007 2:15:15 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: monday

You picked two of the few Western European countries which aren’t in the EU (Lichtenstein and Monaco). You could use Luxembourg and Ireland, though for two small countries with strong economies.


157 posted on 06/22/2007 2:18:37 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Japan basically went almost unpunished (culturally) after the war. Germany was definitely punished—to the point that many Germans today feel as though they are somehow responsible for what their ancestors did.


158 posted on 06/22/2007 2:24:20 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: tophat9000
Arkansan Arkansas (ARK-KAN-SAW). If you're an American, this wasn't to be facetious.

Considering most Americans would be able to spell Arkansas, guessing that you aren't American. Apologies if that isn't the case.

159 posted on 06/22/2007 2:29:23 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: All
Can one of you freepers, especially if you're an older one, answer whether it is rude to post a lot of comments (5/10+) in a row on a thread?

Seem to be almost the only freeper that posts so much in a row.

160 posted on 06/22/2007 2:38:57 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: The Blitherer

I think perhaps the laugh is on you, in that this “tactic” is the exact rational used to arbitrarily create a Polish state where there had been none for almost two centuries.


161 posted on 06/22/2007 2:59:05 AM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: texas_mrs
How awful that a trivial thing like mass genocide is getting in the way of something important, like global warming discussions.

You notice that Germany and Russia never get any credit for all the good they did. If not for Germany and Russia, not only would there be 66 Million Poles (and numerous other Eastern Europeans) but they'd be living like Swedes or West Germans and generating megatons of CO2.

162 posted on 06/22/2007 3:07:15 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (I never consented to live in the Camp of the Saints.)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

It´s alright. You´re answering to posts.


163 posted on 06/22/2007 3:10:40 AM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: RWR8189
Not a very smart speech, but dude’s point was that population shouldn’t directly decide about the number of votes in the EU, not that Poland actually should get something more because of WW2 losses... unfortunately most of the media in Europe (even these “conservative”) are “pro-European” (deeper integration, Euro “Constitution” and so on) so they are twisting words of those with even only a bit different attitude to make them look like idiots.
164 posted on 06/22/2007 4:20:49 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: wolf78

Anything showing Slovakian economy to be less free than German is worth s*it, no matter how respected institution made It.


165 posted on 06/22/2007 4:23:28 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: RWR8189

Give Poland additional votes to make up for population loss through genocide. Take the votes from Germany.


166 posted on 06/22/2007 4:28:34 AM PDT by BuffaloJack
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Comment #167 Removed by Moderator

To: dfwgator

Between 1.6 million and 1.25 million Poles (the lowest estimate) were deported to Siberia and Kazakhstan between 1939-1941 as a result of Soviet “ethnic cleansing”.==

Total nonsense.


168 posted on 06/22/2007 4:41:30 AM PDT by RusIvan (Western MSM zombies the western publics.)
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To: RusIvan

Yep. And the war in Vietnam was worse than Stalin’s crimes...


169 posted on 06/22/2007 4:44:29 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
It's something you say when somebody bases his argument on absurd hypothetical. E.g.: "I'm not lazy. If my parents had given me proper emotional support as a child, I would be a millionaire by now.". The answer would then be: "Boo-Hoo, if cowsh*t were butter, farmers would all be millionaires!".

Meaning: If you're allowed to randomly change the premises of your argument, you can claim anything, even the biggest nonsense.
170 posted on 06/22/2007 4:45:13 AM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
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To: RWR8189

Doesn’t Poland have the lowest birthrate in the EU? The leaders may be right but they also need to tell their folks the basics on increasing the population again. And here I thought the Germans might be best at avoiding the natural consequences of natural sex.


171 posted on 06/22/2007 4:49:30 AM PDT by Puddleglum
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To: tetuhe1898

Well, Puttie Poot is not an option here, but there are other neighbors to have fun with - for instance Ukraine, Baltic states and Georgia. Potentially they could make up a strong alliance supported by the USA or even form their own Eastern European Union (EEU) within or outside the EU with uncertain results. The near future of Europe seems to be a damned interesting show!==

Seem for me it is very likely. Maybe Poland will unite GUAM countries?


172 posted on 06/22/2007 4:59:52 AM PDT by RusIvan (Western MSM zombies the western publics.)
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To: wolf78

Appreciated.


173 posted on 06/22/2007 5:21:02 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: Grzegorz 246

Yep. And the war in Vietnam was worse than Stalin’s crimes...==

Stupid to lie even on the Stalin’ crimes. Stalin didn’t deported Poles to Sibiria ever. I was born in Siberia I didn’t here about no Poles there deported after the WW2.


174 posted on 06/22/2007 5:56:31 AM PDT by RusIvan (Western MSM zombies the western publics.)
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To: vox_PL; dfwgator

Plz explain me on what base your country wants to be same influential in EU as Germany or France? Those 2 are the founders of EU after all. I think those country has the most economical and political weight too. Why they should share it with Poland?


175 posted on 06/22/2007 6:34:42 AM PDT by RusIvan (Western MSM zombies the western publics.)
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To: RusIvan

Siberia is huge. If considered to be all of Asian Russia, it could still be larger than every other country on Earth. So arguing that since you were born in Siberia that you should have more insight on whether Poles were or weren’t deported there is a bit of a stretch.


176 posted on 06/22/2007 6:50:11 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
Japan basically went almost unpunished (culturally) after the war. Germany was definitely punished—to the point that many Germans today feel as though they are somehow responsible for what their ancestors did.

Germany (both of them) certainly rearmed quicker than Japan did.

One reason Japan has not had the pressure put upon it by Western liberals that Germany has is that it is a "non-Western" culture and thus, according to multiculturalism, is beyond critique by "Western" standards. Notice that even though World War II was "the good war," our war against Japan is now considered "bad."

I have long maintained that the contemporary Left has much more in common with WWII-era Japan than with the USSR. I don't think the ideology of WWII-era Japan has been studied to the extent that European fascism has, and I believe it would pay us to learn more about it.

177 posted on 06/22/2007 6:59:15 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator ( . . . veyiqchu 'eleykha farah 'adummah temimah, 'asher 'ein-bah mum, 'asher lo'-`alah `aleyha `ol.)
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To: RusIvan
“Stalin didn’t deported Poles to Sibiria ever.”

You’re trying to be funny ? So how the hell in the Asian part of the Soviet Union in 41/42 the whole army was created, which later went to Persia and fought in Italy in 44 ? And next one more army, which fought on the Soviet side ?

178 posted on 06/22/2007 7:02:11 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: RusIvan

You better tell us why Russia is in G8...


179 posted on 06/22/2007 7:03:05 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: mngran
Likewise, Germany and France might have larger populations had not Romans invaded and made war on them for many years.

One should remind the EU that the Neanderthals have no votes.

180 posted on 06/22/2007 7:05:27 AM PDT by Rightwing Conspiratr1
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To: Grzegorz 246

So how the hell in the Asian part of the Soviet Union in 41/42 the whole army was created, which later went to Persia and fought in Italy in 44 ? ==

Dear dear you do not pay attention:). The post said about AFTER ww2 1.6 vln of Poles was deported to Sibiria. AFTER the war not before the war.


181 posted on 06/22/2007 7:12:45 AM PDT by RusIvan (Western MSM zombies the western publics.)
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To: Grzegorz 246

You better tell us why Russia is in G8...==

Because she is the important country:).


182 posted on 06/22/2007 7:14:12 AM PDT by RusIvan (Western MSM zombies the western publics.)
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To: vox_PL
I wish you would read your own posts. I have a question: How can you be against a deranged madman--like Hitler? You sound so much like him. I thought most of you had died off in the last century. Nowadays most people associate such venomous words as yours with Islamic fascist idiots. There's no doubt that if everyone were to adopt your attitude, we would be living in a world of constant and perpetual wars. Are you concealing some long repressed guilt about living through WWII and doing nothing to stop the killing. Obviously, there is only one solution to your problem: self-termination with extreme prejudice. Ironic, eh?

.

183 posted on 06/22/2007 7:16:31 AM PDT by OESY
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To: RusIvan

No... Go to your own #168...


184 posted on 06/22/2007 7:20:06 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: RusIvan

“Because she is the important country:).”

In vodka consumption...


185 posted on 06/22/2007 7:22:42 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: RWR8189

Isn’t Poland largely Catholic?


186 posted on 06/22/2007 7:25:20 AM PDT by fso301
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To: Grzegorz 246

LOL

In reality the kaszinskys are flaming friends of everything german.

They never blew the polish strategy in negatiations by making everybody angry with utterly stupid emotional nationalistic remarks.

It was all due to media spin and translation errors.


187 posted on 06/22/2007 7:32:47 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: RusIvan

If Germany and Russia team up - it has always been in our best interests.

Ok maybe not in polish interests - but they always keep on bashing the russians anyhow - and then they complain if WE do business with you guys. (See Gazprom)

:)=)

No seriously how can a hard working and bright folk like the poles vote for these krawallniks ? Was there really no alternative ?


188 posted on 06/22/2007 7:37:04 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: wolf78

given the “abgeltungssteuer” and the new laws on transport of personal capital in cash across european (!) borders our country is definatly on the way to light blue.


189 posted on 06/22/2007 7:43:46 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: RWR8189

It’s about time somebody stood up for their nation!

This pell mell rush to a Euro Union stinks...it’s been nothing but mischief since they started the attempt.

I’d like to see more nations standing up to the Euros as well.

Bravo Poland!


190 posted on 06/22/2007 7:46:58 AM PDT by eleni121 ((+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
So you're supporting taking from the descendants of the 'bad guys' and giving to the descendants of the 'good guys.'

Nope, I'm saying Germany shouldn't benefit, long story short, just go back to the drawing board and start over again. I'm NOT saying penalize Germany, just do not reward them, so, go back and start from scratch.

191 posted on 06/22/2007 7:48:36 AM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: dfwgator

No doubt about it—between the reich on one hand and the Soviet Union on the other-—Poland is lucky to be around at all!

For that Poles and other nations especially in Eastern Europe need to congratulated for their Christian faith.


192 posted on 06/22/2007 7:49:45 AM PDT by eleni121 ((+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: Grzegorz 246

It’s easy to have a small show running free.

Try and free an economy like the US has.


193 posted on 06/22/2007 7:51:19 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

Poland deserves representation in the EU parliament


No. Poland deserves fair representation in the EU parliament.

Better yet, get rid of the EU parliament!


194 posted on 06/22/2007 7:52:14 AM PDT by eleni121 ((+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: Michael81Dus
You have no idea what´s the difference betweeen individual and collective guilt, have you? And even worse for your position: The war ended 62 years ago.

I actually do know a couple of people who fought in the war, (granted they are really old), I'm not one of those guys who dismisses things like a bloody war, to people who fought in it.

That said, Germany should not directly benefit, if anyone over in the EU had brains, they would go back to the drawing board, and rework a more palable solution.

And the difference between individual guilt and collective should not be, "guilty" and "off the hook".

195 posted on 06/22/2007 7:52:22 AM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

but the netherlanders have.... oh I am sorry.


196 posted on 06/22/2007 7:53:58 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
Germany also has a large population in part because of forced resettlement of ethnic Germans from other countries such as Poland after the war.

Kind of feels good to be Germany, more people, more power, from a situation created.

Would it not be more prudent, to simply work a better plan out that would be more fair and easy to work?

197 posted on 06/22/2007 7:54:13 AM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: Michael81Dus; All
Mr Kaczyński certainly does represent the overwhelming majority of the Polish people!

results of the election in 2005

Law and Justice (PiS) - 155
Civic Platform (PO) - 133
Self-defence (Samoobrona) - 56
Democratic Left Alliance (SLD) - 55
League of Polish Families (LPR) -34
Polish Peasant Party (PSL) - 25
The German minority -2

198 posted on 06/22/2007 7:58:55 AM PDT by eleni121 ((+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: Sonny M

the debate is not about germany and wether it is profiting... well it used to be not about it.

in fact noone in europe had a problem with a weighting of votes related to the number of inhabitants - if it wasn’t for that K. that was only voted for by a small minority of poles (only 40% showed up for the elections).

As K realized that he’s gonna be one very isolated show stopper he pulled the NAZI grenade and vanished in the smokes.

As I said before in the end he will do what he’s supposed to do until a grown up reigns in poland - shut up - and england will take the role of blocking europe.


199 posted on 06/22/2007 8:00:13 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: wolf78

The Polish position is far more intellectualy valid than anything the Germans are trying to do in their grab for power.

When has the German position ever been objective? You got to be kidding or delusional!


200 posted on 06/22/2007 8:02:48 AM PDT by eleni121 ((+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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