Posted on 06/21/2007 10:54:10 AM PDT by RWR8189
The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.
In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.
"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.
"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."
The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit.
A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more.
Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people.
Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.
The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.
Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland.
"You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."
It sets the scene for a rancorous dinner tonight when leaders of the 27 EU states need to thrash out a series of disputes to avoid a crisis.
Mr Blair, notching up his 47th EU summit, told his Cabinet in London that he was prepared to walk away from the table unless his own demands were met in full.
Before flying out, he and Gordon Brown had telephone talks with Mrs Merkel - indicating that Mr Brown is intensely involved in the negotiations.
Mr Blair came under fire for trying to water down the EU's "son of constitution" treaty. Mr Juncker a veteran federalist, fumed: "We will not stand by and see all the substance removed from the treaty."
New French president Nicolas Sarkozy said there were multiple disputes.
"We don't just have problems with Poland," he said. "We have problems with the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, a little bit with the Czech Republic. The problems are numerous."
Privately, No 10 indicated that Mr Blair wanted his demands met "100 per cent". But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso retorted: "All the leaders say that they want 100 per cent achievement. But in Europe you've got to be reasonable and rational.
"At the end there has to be some, let's say, agreement."
Mrs Merkel sent an 11th-hour letter pleading with the leaders to compromise, so that Europe could move on from inwardlooking disputes to pressing issues such as climate change, energy supplies and globalisation.
"The European public now expects us to put the necessary reforms of the Union in hand," she wrote. "The time has now come to set out the roadmap for the impending reform of the treaties."
Germany acted very badly in World War 2, and Poland's population today might have been higher had the Nazis not killed many Poles. But they did, and today Poland is a medium sized country (population) and Germany is a large one. Germany should have more votes in the parliament to represent the Germans living in the EU today.
The EU parliament has relatively little power, though the constitution--and potentially this new treaty--could change that. The EU Commission makes most of the EU's rules, and the Commissioners are selected by the member states' national governments.
The Benelux countries and much of Germany should be light green, and more of North Africa should be colored. Also more of the Crimea.
So should tiny Austria be given many more votes, including all of Hungary's? (rhetorical).
You're arguing that Germans, many of whom were not involved in World War 2, should be proportionally less represented in the parliament, and Poland should be over-represented to compensate for those killed in World War 2.
So you're supporting taking from the descendants of the 'bad guys' and giving to the descendants of the 'good guys.'
Can you explain the German phrase? You’re translation was helpful, but it still (personally) doesn’t make much sense with the rest of your post.
You picked two of the few Western European countries which aren’t in the EU (Lichtenstein and Monaco). You could use Luxembourg and Ireland, though for two small countries with strong economies.
Japan basically went almost unpunished (culturally) after the war. Germany was definitely punished—to the point that many Germans today feel as though they are somehow responsible for what their ancestors did.
Considering most Americans would be able to spell Arkansas, guessing that you aren't American. Apologies if that isn't the case.
Seem to be almost the only freeper that posts so much in a row.
I think perhaps the laugh is on you, in that this “tactic” is the exact rational used to arbitrarily create a Polish state where there had been none for almost two centuries.
You notice that Germany and Russia never get any credit for all the good they did. If not for Germany and Russia, not only would there be 66 Million Poles (and numerous other Eastern Europeans) but they'd be living like Swedes or West Germans and generating megatons of CO2.
It´s alright. You´re answering to posts.
Anything showing Slovakian economy to be less free than German is worth s*it, no matter how respected institution made It.
Give Poland additional votes to make up for population loss through genocide. Take the votes from Germany.
Between 1.6 million and 1.25 million Poles (the lowest estimate) were deported to Siberia and Kazakhstan between 1939-1941 as a result of Soviet “ethnic cleansing”.==
Total nonsense.
Yep. And the war in Vietnam was worse than Stalin’s crimes...
Doesn’t Poland have the lowest birthrate in the EU? The leaders may be right but they also need to tell their folks the basics on increasing the population again. And here I thought the Germans might be best at avoiding the natural consequences of natural sex.
Well, Puttie Poot is not an option here, but there are other neighbors to have fun with - for instance Ukraine, Baltic states and Georgia. Potentially they could make up a strong alliance supported by the USA or even form their own Eastern European Union (EEU) within or outside the EU with uncertain results. The near future of Europe seems to be a damned interesting show!==
Seem for me it is very likely. Maybe Poland will unite GUAM countries?
Appreciated.
Yep. And the war in Vietnam was worse than Stalin’s crimes...==
Stupid to lie even on the Stalin’ crimes. Stalin didn’t deported Poles to Sibiria ever. I was born in Siberia I didn’t here about no Poles there deported after the WW2.
Plz explain me on what base your country wants to be same influential in EU as Germany or France? Those 2 are the founders of EU after all. I think those country has the most economical and political weight too. Why they should share it with Poland?
Siberia is huge. If considered to be all of Asian Russia, it could still be larger than every other country on Earth. So arguing that since you were born in Siberia that you should have more insight on whether Poles were or weren’t deported there is a bit of a stretch.
Germany (both of them) certainly rearmed quicker than Japan did.
One reason Japan has not had the pressure put upon it by Western liberals that Germany has is that it is a "non-Western" culture and thus, according to multiculturalism, is beyond critique by "Western" standards. Notice that even though World War II was "the good war," our war against Japan is now considered "bad."
I have long maintained that the contemporary Left has much more in common with WWII-era Japan than with the USSR. I don't think the ideology of WWII-era Japan has been studied to the extent that European fascism has, and I believe it would pay us to learn more about it.
You’re trying to be funny ? So how the hell in the Asian part of the Soviet Union in 41/42 the whole army was created, which later went to Persia and fought in Italy in 44 ? And next one more army, which fought on the Soviet side ?
You better tell us why Russia is in G8...
One should remind the EU that the Neanderthals have no votes.
So how the hell in the Asian part of the Soviet Union in 41/42 the whole army was created, which later went to Persia and fought in Italy in 44 ? ==
Dear dear you do not pay attention:). The post said about AFTER ww2 1.6 vln of Poles was deported to Sibiria. AFTER the war not before the war.
You better tell us why Russia is in G8...==
Because she is the important country:).
.
No... Go to your own #168...
“Because she is the important country:).”
In vodka consumption...
Isn’t Poland largely Catholic?
LOL
In reality the kaszinskys are flaming friends of everything german.
They never blew the polish strategy in negatiations by making everybody angry with utterly stupid emotional nationalistic remarks.
It was all due to media spin and translation errors.
If Germany and Russia team up - it has always been in our best interests.
Ok maybe not in polish interests - but they always keep on bashing the russians anyhow - and then they complain if WE do business with you guys. (See Gazprom)
:)=)
No seriously how can a hard working and bright folk like the poles vote for these krawallniks ? Was there really no alternative ?
given the “abgeltungssteuer” and the new laws on transport of personal capital in cash across european (!) borders our country is definatly on the way to light blue.
It’s about time somebody stood up for their nation!
This pell mell rush to a Euro Union stinks...it’s been nothing but mischief since they started the attempt.
I’d like to see more nations standing up to the Euros as well.
Bravo Poland!
Nope, I'm saying Germany shouldn't benefit, long story short, just go back to the drawing board and start over again. I'm NOT saying penalize Germany, just do not reward them, so, go back and start from scratch.
No doubt about it—between the reich on one hand and the Soviet Union on the other-—Poland is lucky to be around at all!
For that Poles and other nations especially in Eastern Europe need to congratulated for their Christian faith.
It’s easy to have a small show running free.
Try and free an economy like the US has.
Poland deserves representation in the EU parliament
No. Poland deserves fair representation in the EU parliament.
Better yet, get rid of the EU parliament!
I actually do know a couple of people who fought in the war, (granted they are really old), I'm not one of those guys who dismisses things like a bloody war, to people who fought in it.
That said, Germany should not directly benefit, if anyone over in the EU had brains, they would go back to the drawing board, and rework a more palable solution.
And the difference between individual guilt and collective should not be, "guilty" and "off the hook".
but the netherlanders have.... oh I am sorry.
Kind of feels good to be Germany, more people, more power, from a situation created.
Would it not be more prudent, to simply work a better plan out that would be more fair and easy to work?
results of the election in 2005
Law and Justice (PiS) - 155
Civic Platform (PO) - 133
Self-defence (Samoobrona) - 56
Democratic Left Alliance (SLD) - 55
League of Polish Families (LPR) -34
Polish Peasant Party (PSL) - 25
The German minority -2
the debate is not about germany and wether it is profiting... well it used to be not about it.
in fact noone in europe had a problem with a weighting of votes related to the number of inhabitants - if it wasn’t for that K. that was only voted for by a small minority of poles (only 40% showed up for the elections).
As K realized that he’s gonna be one very isolated show stopper he pulled the NAZI grenade and vanished in the smokes.
As I said before in the end he will do what he’s supposed to do until a grown up reigns in poland - shut up - and england will take the role of blocking europe.
The Polish position is far more intellectualy valid than anything the Germans are trying to do in their grab for power.
When has the German position ever been objective? You got to be kidding or delusional!
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