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We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in WWII, says Polish PM
Evening Standard ^ | June 21, 2007

Posted on 06/21/2007 10:54:10 AM PDT by RWR8189

The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.

In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.

"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.

"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."

The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit.

A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more.

Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people.

Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.

The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.

Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland.

"You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."

It sets the scene for a rancorous dinner tonight when leaders of the 27 EU states need to thrash out a series of disputes to avoid a crisis.

Mr Blair, notching up his 47th EU summit, told his Cabinet in London that he was prepared to walk away from the table unless his own demands were met in full.

Before flying out, he and Gordon Brown had telephone talks with Mrs Merkel - indicating that Mr Brown is intensely involved in the negotiations.

Mr Blair came under fire for trying to water down the EU's "son of constitution" treaty. Mr Juncker a veteran federalist, fumed: "We will not stand by and see all the substance removed from the treaty."

New French president Nicolas Sarkozy said there were multiple disputes.

"We don't just have problems with Poland," he said. "We have problems with the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, a little bit with the Czech Republic. The problems are numerous."

Privately, No 10 indicated that Mr Blair wanted his demands met "100 per cent". But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso retorted: "All the leaders say that they want 100 per cent achievement. But in Europe you've got to be reasonable and rational.

"At the end there has to be some, let's say, agreement."

Mrs Merkel sent an 11th-hour letter pleading with the leaders to compromise, so that Europe could move on from inwardlooking disputes to pressing issues such as climate change, energy supplies and globalisation.

"The European public now expects us to put the necessary reforms of the Union in hand," she wrote. "The time has now come to set out the roadmap for the impending reform of the treaties."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: affirmativeaction; crimes; eu; germany; kaczynski; poland; racism; reparations; ww2
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To: Rummenigge

NO - you are wrong again.

The statistics are at 51% and this is after three consecutive election in 2 months!

The Right is in firm control in Poland.

Too bad for the Socialists.


251 posted on 06/25/2007 7:51:07 AM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: Rummenigge

You can make assertions like that until the cows come home but you cannot prove it!


252 posted on 06/25/2007 7:52:20 AM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: RobbyS

global warming is the not the fattest political pig ever chased through the village but for sure the loudest.

Everybody and his dog wants to stick some agenda to it while it passes.

- Merkel wants to use it for her restart auf nuclear power programms in germany.
- France wants to enlarge their market share of cheap and small cars.
- Every party seeks to grab in our pocket to ‘safe our lifes’.
- China should be throtteling it’s soaring economy that drives the prices of raw materials.
- Solar pannels - expensive as hell - should be sold.
- Energy dependence should be lowered (not only bad agendas on that piggy)
- Efficient German Diesel Cars have to be sold.

Poor piggy - so much burden on such a skinny bone.


253 posted on 06/25/2007 7:56:53 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Rummenigge

In fact, EU support is on the decline everywhere in Europe.

Your wishful but unrealistic thinking reminds one of certain German dreamers of the past

Germany is making a fatal error again..and again...and again.


254 posted on 06/25/2007 7:57:37 AM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: eleni121

and to bad for poland - beeing conservative is not enough you have to be successful.


255 posted on 06/25/2007 8:29:10 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: eleni121

I see that.

So why do you want to be in it ?


256 posted on 06/25/2007 8:29:58 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Rummenigge

“and to bad for poland - beeing conservative is not enough you have to be successful.”

As long as you use the name Rummenigge: success for the Germans and that “Miracle of Bern”; though they probably are not worst than some of the other World Cup winners; with the Hand of God; Mussolini and all that, still; concerning 1954:

“It’s just a shame that it now seems that those 11 miracle-workers and German Heroes may have cheated to do it.” - http://www.planetworldcup.com/GUESTS/matt20040610.html

And in 1982; Schumacher punched out that French player who may have been on his way to a goal; though Coach Klinsmann’s team and the one from 2002 were good, one can’t help but contemplate diving by the Germans in 1990; not to be outdone by Diego’s antics in ‘86.

I only mention these things, because it does depend on how one defines “success”, honesty and the great financial aid realized by West Germany after the war also plays a part.


257 posted on 06/25/2007 8:38:39 AM PDT by RGPII
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To: RGPII

I was not aiming onto the astonishing economic performances poland showed to be capable of but I was referring to the negotiation skills of these expert diplomates who wanted to start WWII again for same square root regulation that wouldn’t have brought them any use because they couldn’t convince stone to follow gravity.


258 posted on 06/25/2007 8:52:39 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: RGPII

“I only mention these things, because it does depend on how one defines “success”, honesty and the great financial aid realized by West Germany after the war also plays a part.”

Not only a part but a base for the opportunity we used in such a way that it really makes me proud.

Poland does the same with my tax money. Cool. We will hopefully benefit from that as the US reaped what they saw in germany.

Still it strikes me that US conservatives bring the talk to the marshall plan - it’s just what they would never have done - dropping cash onto their enemies.


259 posted on 06/25/2007 9:04:00 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Rummenigge
and to bad for poland - beeing conservative is not enough you have to be successful.

There are conservatives in Poland? Where?
260 posted on 06/25/2007 9:14:26 AM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
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To: eleni121

My guess is that almost every German over the age of 15 wishes he had the Deutschmark back.


261 posted on 06/25/2007 9:55:10 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: eleni121

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the twins never wanted Poland to be out of the EU?

They may be stupid, but they aren’t that stupid. Poland is at the moment the biggest beneficiary of EU money.
They have no problem taking the money and making demands after demands, what they still need to learn is, that there are not just benefits but also responsibilities.


262 posted on 06/25/2007 9:59:22 AM PDT by Cerb
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To: RobbyS

not me.

Most germans - according to studies from 2004 - apprechiate the euro - and quite right so.

It’s a small but valuable stronghold against the agressive money printers in the US.

(That’s why it creaps slowly out of the cellar as a reserve currency - though it’s still underrepresented as such)

Let’s hope we can hold it after the dollar crash that is immanent.


263 posted on 06/25/2007 10:12:26 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Cerb

no - but they want everybody else to leave.


264 posted on 06/25/2007 10:13:15 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: RobbyS

I bet that is right...I know other Euros who feel the same way about their own currency.

The EU is a recipe for failure for Europeans.


265 posted on 06/25/2007 10:24:05 AM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: Cerb

No. The responsibility is the West’s. They abandoned Poland and all of Central Europe to the Soviet wolves

The West has a sordid record of abandoning their European brethren in the past.

Here is another example:

Balkans to the Ottoman enlavement for 400 years.

Germans have additional responsibility to SHUT UP! given their terror in WWI and WWII

Got that?...and welcome to FR


266 posted on 06/25/2007 11:07:46 AM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: eleni121

You see, that is exactly the problem: the past is used as means to make Germany shut up.

I agree that Germany (and other western European countries) have a special responsibility concerning Poland and I think there were quite some occasions where Germany put in its weight to support Poland (I even read a quote from a Polish newspaper calling Germany “Poland’s lawyer”).

I know and understand the consequences of our WW II past, however, what you should begin to understand is that modern Germans, although knowing their responsibilities, don’t like to be blackmailed by that past. Our Nazi history was a “Totschlagargument” (an argument to make Germans shut up in every discussion) for a long time. However, it is no more.We are aware of what our people has done to Europe and the world, and we won’t forget it, I assure you. But the mood in Germany has changed in recent years, and we won’t step back all the time when someone brings up our terrible history, for the simple reason that we are living in a new world and a new post- cold war - Europe.

We shouldn’t forget our past, but neither should the past dominate our future.

So, yes, I “got that”, but I don’t agree. As one of the biggest and most important countries in Western Europe, Germany has the right to argue for its interests, just like Poland has the right to fight for its interests. Germany has to take responsibility for its past crimes, and is by no means a perfect country, but if you expect us to cower in shame whenever your president brings up our past to push us in acting against our own interests, you will be disappointed.


267 posted on 06/25/2007 12:13:39 PM PDT by Cerb
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To: Cerb
Nobody stops you from taking care of your own interests, but somehow in the pell mell haste to re create another European experiment in empire certain powers decided to bomb and coerce other smaller nations.

Was Germany acting in its own interests when it decided to go along with Clinton and Blair’s bombing of civilians in Serbia? If anything Germans should have yelled “HALT!” given the genocide in WWII

You know that incident alone is the death knell for any kind of lasting EU.

268 posted on 06/25/2007 1:10:15 PM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: eleni121

Actually, the German politicians back then argued that the bombings were to stop a genocide. I don’t know much about the topic, but I know that the whole area was a mess back then.
If the bombings helped to stop the war or not....dunno.


269 posted on 06/25/2007 1:42:25 PM PDT by Cerb
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To: Cerb

The only genocide was the one perpetrated against the Serbs..again.

The bombing was aimed at women and children—innocent civilians. Who was the disgusting leader then? I think it was Schroeder...another Clinton buddy.

As I said, Germany should do what is right for Germany but not bomb others who disagree with them.


270 posted on 06/25/2007 3:47:29 PM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: wideawake

If they do, then Poland should declare war on Germany and take out just a little over half of their current population.
Sounds fair, eh?


271 posted on 06/25/2007 3:51:22 PM PDT by mabelkitty
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To: mabelkitty

that seems to be the attitude of the polish prime...

it’s hard to see a country like poland fall under the influence of such a sicko.


272 posted on 06/28/2007 7:22:36 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: dfwgator
Thank you for presenting the duel invaders of Poland, Nazi Germany and communist Russia. The Russians continued the terror in Poland during the post war years.


273 posted on 06/28/2007 8:43:07 PM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is never free)
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