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We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in WWII, says Polish PM
Evening Standard ^ | June 21, 2007

Posted on 06/21/2007 10:54:10 AM PDT by RWR8189

The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.

In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.

"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.

"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."

The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit.

A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more.

Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people.

Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.

The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.

Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland.

"You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."

It sets the scene for a rancorous dinner tonight when leaders of the 27 EU states need to thrash out a series of disputes to avoid a crisis.

Mr Blair, notching up his 47th EU summit, told his Cabinet in London that he was prepared to walk away from the table unless his own demands were met in full.

Before flying out, he and Gordon Brown had telephone talks with Mrs Merkel - indicating that Mr Brown is intensely involved in the negotiations.

Mr Blair came under fire for trying to water down the EU's "son of constitution" treaty. Mr Juncker a veteran federalist, fumed: "We will not stand by and see all the substance removed from the treaty."

New French president Nicolas Sarkozy said there were multiple disputes.

"We don't just have problems with Poland," he said. "We have problems with the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, a little bit with the Czech Republic. The problems are numerous."

Privately, No 10 indicated that Mr Blair wanted his demands met "100 per cent". But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso retorted: "All the leaders say that they want 100 per cent achievement. But in Europe you've got to be reasonable and rational.

"At the end there has to be some, let's say, agreement."

Mrs Merkel sent an 11th-hour letter pleading with the leaders to compromise, so that Europe could move on from inwardlooking disputes to pressing issues such as climate change, energy supplies and globalisation.

"The European public now expects us to put the necessary reforms of the Union in hand," she wrote. "The time has now come to set out the roadmap for the impending reform of the treaties."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: affirmativeaction; crimes; eu; germany; kaczynski; poland; racism; reparations; ww2
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1 posted on 06/21/2007 10:54:12 AM PDT by RWR8189
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To: RWR8189
Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.

They are bad guys for knowing their history, apparently.

And if they didn't know it, they would be bad guys for being so ignorant.

Ah, the media.

2 posted on 06/21/2007 10:57:37 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: RWR8189
In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.

Ouch!

3 posted on 06/21/2007 10:58:10 AM PDT by The Blitherer (What would a Free Man do?)
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To: RWR8189
How awful that a trivial thing like mass genocide is getting in the way of something important, like global warming discussions.
/s
4 posted on 06/21/2007 11:01:00 AM PDT by texas_mrs (It's an invasion, not immigration)
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To: RWR8189

Suggested compromise - give Poland the extra votes, and move the borders back to their 1938 locations. Everyone should be happy with that, shouldn’t they?


5 posted on 06/21/2007 11:01:11 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: wideawake
Oh-Oh, sounds to me like the Euro’s are fiddling around and heading toward an “American” solution here. If the Poles wa-wa enough about this, they stand a pretty good chance of getting the Germans to start feeling all guilty. Just a hop, skip and a jump to reparations from that point.
6 posted on 06/21/2007 11:01:47 AM PDT by skimbell
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To: RWR8189

Reparations!


7 posted on 06/21/2007 11:03:00 AM PDT by HaveHadEnough
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To: PAR35

Another suggested compromise (likely by the Germans and the French): import more Muslims into Poland.


8 posted on 06/21/2007 11:03:24 AM PDT by gunservative
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To: RWR8189

Don’t mention the War. ;)


9 posted on 06/21/2007 11:03:38 AM PDT by kalee (The offenses we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we write in marble. JHuett)
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To: RWR8189

While our memories are alive, Germany’s crimes are alive.


10 posted on 06/21/2007 11:04:03 AM PDT by Lexington Green (Paris Hilton did more time than Sandy Berger.)
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To: RWR8189

Seems reasonable to me. Maybe not diplomatic, but true, and thoroughly provoked. Germany is saying they deserve more power in the EU because they’re the biggest boys on the block. Poland is responding that they won’t agree to letting an axis run by the Germans dictate to them.

I think they’re tired of being told to pipe down and do what they’re told, or else.

Frankly, I’m very disturbed that Merkel and Sarkozy agreed to a backroom deal with socialist Tony Blair on imposing what amounts to a new constitution on Europe without any vote, discussion, or national referendums allowed. The sooner the whole thing goes down in flames, the better for the future of Europe.


11 posted on 06/21/2007 11:04:56 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: texas_mrs
Right. Telling the unvarnished truth is ‘undiplomatic’ in anybody’s book. Oh well, only lunatic, religiously fanatic ME leaders are allowed to tell the ‘unvarnished truth’ and continue to be regarded as diplomats and leaders.
12 posted on 06/21/2007 11:06:44 AM PDT by SMARTY ("Stay together, pay the soldiers and forget everything else." Lucius Septimus Severus)
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To: RWR8189

Heck, Poland should be rewarded for saving Vienna and ending the 2nd Jihad. That action was the catalyst for everything ill that befell Poland since.


13 posted on 06/21/2007 11:12:37 AM PDT by pacelvi
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To: RWR8189

Likewise, Germany and France might have larger populations had not Romans invaded and made war on them for many years. Reduce the votes of the Italians. Oh, and remember when Henry V invaded France? Extra votes for the French. I kind of remember some guy named Princip (ok, he wasn’t from an EU nation, but still) executing Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, so that’s two more votes for Austria.


14 posted on 06/21/2007 11:13:17 AM PDT by mngran
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To: skimbell

Is he not right? Didn’t the Nazis kill millions of Poles? Or did I miss something?


15 posted on 06/21/2007 11:14:08 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Fred Thompson/John Bolton 2008)
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To: skimbell
The Poles make a strong point: Germany should not get rewarded with extra political clout because they were able to murder millions of their neighbors' citizens.

This isn't about reparations or whining - it's about equity.

You're not supposed to be able to profit from crime.

16 posted on 06/21/2007 11:15:45 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: A. Pole
The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.
17 posted on 06/21/2007 11:21:48 AM PDT by Max in Utah (If you would be an American, then look to our Founders' principles.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Is he not right? Didn’t the Nazis kill millions of Poles? Or did I miss something?

You are correct. Approximately 1 in 5 Poles died, or something extraordinary like that. Some FReeper no doubt can supply the correct figures.

18 posted on 06/21/2007 11:25:34 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: skimbell
Oh-Oh, sounds to me like the Euro’s are fiddling around and heading toward an “American” solution here. If the Poles wa-wa enough about this, they stand a pretty good chance of getting the Germans to start feeling all guilty. Just a hop, skip and a jump to reparations from that point.

If they don't "wa wa" about it, Germany gets to benefit from its past acts.

Its like me stealing your wallet, taking your cash, and buying a lottery ticket and winning, then telling you to pipe down when you complain.

19 posted on 06/21/2007 11:25:44 AM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: wideawake; Atlantic Bridge

But then where would one put a start-point to when reparations/ power bargains can be considered? Like someone earlier pointed out, will the Italians begin to lose its weightage of votes because of what the Romans did eons ago?

If they quibble over this, the only benefit might be the end of the European Union. The Nazis as a government, is long dead.


20 posted on 06/21/2007 11:26:35 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: RWR8189

Now THAT’S gonna leave a mark...


21 posted on 06/21/2007 11:26:55 AM PDT by Principled
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To: mngran
Likewise, Germany and France might have larger populations had not Romans invaded and made war on them for many years. Reduce the votes of the Italians. Oh, and remember when Henry V invaded France? Extra votes for the French. I kind of remember some guy named Princip (ok, he wasn’t from an EU nation, but still) executing Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, so that’s two more votes for Austria.

This isn't a few hundred years or a thousands of years ago, just a few decades.

Germany wants to benefit now from prior bad acts, its kind of like a serial killer wanting to write a book and keep all the profits from his crimes using the arguement that his killings happened along time ago, while the families of his victims are still alive.

22 posted on 06/21/2007 11:28:03 AM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: PAR35
Suggested compromise - give Poland the extra votes, and move the borders back to their 1938 locations. Everyone should be happy with that, shouldn’t they?

One problem. Poland would then have to reclaim the land the Soviets stole from them after the war. I don't think the Ukrainians and Belarussians would much care for that.

23 posted on 06/21/2007 11:29:20 AM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: wideawake
You're not supposed to be able to profit from crime.

Exactly what crime has some 30 year-old machinist living in Bonn committed?

This is about reparations. It is about making people who had nothing to do with WWII pay for the crimes of the generation that caused it.
24 posted on 06/21/2007 11:29:24 AM PDT by HaveHadEnough
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To: agere_contra
You are correct. Approximately 1 in 5 Poles died, or something extraordinary like that. Some FReeper no doubt can supply the correct figures.

The Polish intelligentsia and business classes were targeted for extermination by the Nazis. And the ones the Nazis didn't get, the Soviets did. Those who did manage to escape the country were not welcomed back by the Soviet puppets who ran Poland after the war.

25 posted on 06/21/2007 11:32:19 AM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: Sonny M
This isn't a few hundred years or a thousands of years ago, just a few decades.

So will the Blacks say the same, about Segregation. And most likely, the Native Americans too.

26 posted on 06/21/2007 11:33:29 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: HaveHadEnough
Reparations!

Germany got The Marshall Plan after the war, Poland got 40+ years of Soviet Domination, thanks to Yalta.

27 posted on 06/21/2007 11:34:17 AM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: CarrotAndStick
There are people still alive that were harmed by the Nazis, so “long dead” doesn’t make much sense here. Yes, the Roman Empire, or some “long dead” regime shouldn’t come into play, but many of our fathers and grandfathers (and I daresay a few FReepers, themselves) fought the Nazis, so they are still relevant, IMO.
28 posted on 06/21/2007 11:35:43 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Fred Thompson/John Bolton 2008)
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To: lizol; vox_PL

ping


29 posted on 06/21/2007 11:35:47 AM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: wideawake; 2ndDivisionVet
"...You're not supposed to be able to profit from crime."

While we're at it, lots of people say that the U.S. committed a huge crime by "stealing" this country from the then current owners. Any profit from that action? I'll bet there are some staggering numbers associated with the death toll among the natives as a result of our action there.

The bottom line is that a lot of things have happened throughout history. If it makes you feel better to blame someone, great. It's probably not going to do much to set thing right though.

30 posted on 06/21/2007 11:36:33 AM PDT by skimbell
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To: CarrotAndStick

Segregation, the Confederacy and the pre War-between-the- States South were all controlled by the democratic party, which now garners about 90% of the black vote. Are they going to sue themselves?


31 posted on 06/21/2007 11:38:08 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Fred Thompson/John Bolton 2008)
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To: skimbell
While we're at it, lots of people say that the U.S. committed a huge crime by "stealing" this country from the then current owners.

They can say that all they want, but the facts do not tally with their claims.

32 posted on 06/21/2007 11:41:00 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: The Blitherer
That is why I like Ambassador John Bolton so much; he doesn’t speak in the usual diplomatic mealymouthed double-talk, he comes out and says what he means!!
33 posted on 06/21/2007 11:41:51 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Fred Thompson/John Bolton 2008)
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To: CarrotAndStick
So will the Blacks say the same, about Segregation. And most likely, the Native Americans too.

There is a bit of a differance between killing somones family, and then trying to claim the benefits from doing so, and having great great great great grand papi killing someone elses great great great great grand papi, or segregation, which afforded no benefits to anyone, just mistreatment of one group.

Its akin to a "son of sam" law in New York barring someone from profitting directly from the crimes they committed, especially, when those survivors are still alive and now are being asked to give up power.

The best way to look at it, Germany, not that long ago, went to war so as to become the dominant power of europe, they killed lots of people, now not to long after, they want to be the dominant power of europe because they have a bigger population then other nations, which is a direct result, of them having tried to be the dominant power not to long ago, its like if after first you do not succeed, try something different and then try again, but do not toss away the fruits of your previous labor.

34 posted on 06/21/2007 11:42:40 AM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: Sonny M
...its kind of like a serial killer wanting to write a book and keep all the profits from his crimes using the arguement that his killings happened along time ago, while the families of his victims are still alive.

Grandchildren of Archduke Ferdinand still living:

-HSH Prince Franz Ferdinand Karl Georg Ernst von Hohenberg
-HSH Prince Ernst Georg Elemer Albert Josef Antonius Peregrinus Rupertus Maria von Hohenberg
- HSH Princess Eva Anne Maria von Hohenburg
- HSH Georg, Duke of Hohenberg
- HSH Prince Albrecht von Hohenberg
- HSH Prince Peter von Hohenberg
- HSH Prince Gerhard von Hohenberg
- Countess Sophie Amalia Theresia Quirinia Henriette Lucretia Magdalena Maria Ignatia von Nostitz-Rieneck
- And numerous great grandchildren, etc.

So, I still say two more votes for Austria if we're giving the Poles exrtra points. And whom do you think populates Germany and France? Survivors of Roman invasions. Into the minus column, Italy!

Where do you propose to draw the line. Only atrocities from 60 years ago? 100 years? 5? 1000? I vote for zero.
35 posted on 06/21/2007 11:42:47 AM PDT by mngran
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To: RWR8189

36 posted on 06/21/2007 11:43:17 AM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: agere_contra
You are correct. Approximately 1 in 5 Poles died, or something extraordinary like that. Some FReeper no doubt can supply the correct figures.

Approx 6 million Poles were killed in WW2 - 50% of those were Jews.
Note that a portion of those were killed by the Ruskies when they took over part of Poland as part of a deal with the Germans and also later near the end of the war when the Ruskies aided in the elimination of Polish nationlists in order to engineer the establishement of a commie state.
Personally, I think the Poles are unwise in whinning about WW2. They took over a large portion of eastern Germany at the end of WW2 as part of a settlement and if they push things too far, they could be in for another ass kicking.

37 posted on 06/21/2007 11:46:03 AM PDT by Riodacat (Ignorance is bliss. Knowledge, truth and reality sucks....)
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To: mngran
Where do you propose to draw the line. Only atrocities from 60 years ago? 100 years? 5? 1000? I vote for zero.

So if someone murders someones family, they get to write a book and keep all the profits?

The son of sam could be a millionaire under this type of scenario, as could most serial killers who can put a pen (or marker) to paper.

One should not benefit from crimes one committed, or even worse, use the fruits of that crime to benefit immediatly over those very victims.

Also, you mentioned Austria, couldn't an arguement be made to take away votes?

38 posted on 06/21/2007 11:46:10 AM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: dfwgator
. I don't think the Ukrainians and Belarussians would much care for that.

But it would cure most of the current conflict within the Ukraine between the Catholics and the Orthodox, the Europhiles and those who look toward Russia.

39 posted on 06/21/2007 11:47:05 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: Riodacat
Poland took over a large portion of eastern Germany at the end of WW2

... while loosing even more territory to the Soviet-Union.

40 posted on 06/21/2007 11:48:21 AM PDT by SolidWood (UN delenda est.)
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To: RWR8189
If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million.

Sure. And there would also be another 25 million Germans living in Pomerania and Silesia. Should these also be counted?



Pre-WWII German language area.

I mean, is it possible to be any more stupid than the Kaczynski twins?
41 posted on 06/21/2007 11:48:37 AM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
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To: wideawake
They are bad guys for knowing their history, apparently.

No, they are just whiners for bitching about something that happened more than six decades ago.
42 posted on 06/21/2007 11:49:38 AM PDT by HEY4QDEMS (Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.)
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To: wolf78
I mean, is it possible to be any more stupid than the Kaczynski twins?

The Kaczynski twins, even in the depths of their purported stupidity, probably wouldn't try to pass off a map of the German "language area" as a map of prewar Germany.

43 posted on 06/21/2007 11:55:14 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: dfwgator

Not just the Nazis, remember Katyn Forest.


44 posted on 06/21/2007 11:56:36 AM PDT by 1066AD
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To: wideawake
The Kaczynski twins, even in the depths of their purported stupidity, probably wouldn't try to pass off a map of the German "language area" as a map of prewar Germany.

lol, isn't that the tactic Hitler himself used? He wanted to "liberate" the German speaking peoples in the surrounding nations.

45 posted on 06/21/2007 11:57:23 AM PDT by The Blitherer (What would a Free Man do?)
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To: PAR35
and move the borders back to their 1938 locations

Why stop at 1938? Europe has a long history of wars and its effects.

46 posted on 06/21/2007 11:58:21 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; wideawake; Sonny M

As much as you’d want to wish the Polish well, I honestly don’t see a movement in this direction towards reparations/ power redistribution, etc., doing anything to improve the situation the parties involved, are in presently. Even if they did, what would the reparations consist of? Who determines how long it should go on? To whom? For how many generations?

The past was a bad mess. Anything done to change the wrongs of history would only seem to justify the actions of Idi Amin and Robert Mugabe. IMHO.


47 posted on 06/21/2007 11:58:24 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: Sonny M
Also, you mentioned Austria, couldn't an arguement be made to take away votes?

Exactly! That's why this proposal from Poland is dumb. Has a Polish person ever killed someone from another EU country (even, say in the last 60 years, which seems to be your cutoff)? Of course. So do we need to search for all cross-national murder convictions in the EU, extrapolate how many people were killed and the likely number of offspring they would have had and then run some algorithim to figure out what the populations of each nation would have been if there weren't evil in the world? Good luck.

You keep on about serial killers writing books, but we're not talking about writing books, we're talking about votes. Here's one for you: The Green River Killer murdered at least 48 women in Washington state in the '70s through '90s. He was from Utah. Should we try to figure out whether the addional population Washington would have had were it not for this murderous Utah resident would entitle Washington to extra votes in the electoral college? That's the kind of thing you're advocating.
48 posted on 06/21/2007 11:59:02 AM PDT by mngran
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To: mngran

The slaughter of the Poles is within living memory. The Poles are saying to the Germans: Who the heck do you think you are talking to!


49 posted on 06/21/2007 12:03:22 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: Sonny M
"There is a bit of a differance between killing somones family, and then trying to claim the benefits from doing so, and having great great great great grand papi killing someone elses great great great great grand papi, or segregation, which afforded no benefits to anyone, just mistreatment of one group."

So would the Germans argue. And the Blacks would claim benefits for "deprived opportunity to improve."

And from there, it would go nowhere.

I don't know how many exchanges it would take to admit that the past is the past, and nothing else can be done to change it. Non-quantifiable losses cannot be reparated, is what I'd think regarding the matter in question.

50 posted on 06/21/2007 12:03:58 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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