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We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in WWII, says Polish PM
Evening Standard ^ | June 21, 2007

Posted on 06/21/2007 10:54:10 AM PDT by RWR8189

The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.

In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.

"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.

"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."

The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit.

A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more.

Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people.

Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.

The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.

Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland.

"You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."

It sets the scene for a rancorous dinner tonight when leaders of the 27 EU states need to thrash out a series of disputes to avoid a crisis.

Mr Blair, notching up his 47th EU summit, told his Cabinet in London that he was prepared to walk away from the table unless his own demands were met in full.

Before flying out, he and Gordon Brown had telephone talks with Mrs Merkel - indicating that Mr Brown is intensely involved in the negotiations.

Mr Blair came under fire for trying to water down the EU's "son of constitution" treaty. Mr Juncker a veteran federalist, fumed: "We will not stand by and see all the substance removed from the treaty."

New French president Nicolas Sarkozy said there were multiple disputes.

"We don't just have problems with Poland," he said. "We have problems with the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, a little bit with the Czech Republic. The problems are numerous."

Privately, No 10 indicated that Mr Blair wanted his demands met "100 per cent". But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso retorted: "All the leaders say that they want 100 per cent achievement. But in Europe you've got to be reasonable and rational.

"At the end there has to be some, let's say, agreement."

Mrs Merkel sent an 11th-hour letter pleading with the leaders to compromise, so that Europe could move on from inwardlooking disputes to pressing issues such as climate change, energy supplies and globalisation.

"The European public now expects us to put the necessary reforms of the Union in hand," she wrote. "The time has now come to set out the roadmap for the impending reform of the treaties."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: affirmativeaction; crimes; eu; germany; kaczynski; poland; racism; reparations; ww2
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To: The Blitherer
Correct.

The territory of modern Poland which was part of prewar Germany was central Pomerania and part of Silesia.

That would be roughly 5 million people today.

51 posted on 06/21/2007 12:03:59 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: RWR8189
In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.

The man does have a point...

52 posted on 06/21/2007 12:05:49 PM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: RWR8189

They’re right.


53 posted on 06/21/2007 12:07:07 PM PDT by toddlintown (Six bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: mngran

Some people apparently don’t grasp the concept of genocide.


54 posted on 06/21/2007 12:07:11 PM PDT by SolidWood (UN delenda est.)
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To: thackney
Why stop at 1938?

I was keying off the current Polish complaints, and trying to reach a resolution to the current dispute. If they don't go for this proposal, we could always offer to roll the clock back 100 years to 1907 borders.

55 posted on 06/21/2007 12:07:49 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35

Why stop there? Previous wars effected population as well.


56 posted on 06/21/2007 12:09:24 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: CarrotAndStick

Oh come off it. I can still remember my aunts in Mississipi taling about “the war.” Like This or that thing happens during” the war.” This would be about 1942 and they weren’t talking about World War II, or World War I, or the Spani-sh-Americans War. They were talking about the events of the siege of Vicksburg by a Union Army. Their mother was a young child living in the caves cut in the side of a hill, and their uncvles, a Choctow indian named John Smith was killed during the siege after leaving her and her mothr with some food. Got his head blown off by a cannon ball or something. Once upon a time I could find his grave. Now that is history as people know it, not as history professors do.


57 posted on 06/21/2007 12:11:13 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
The man does have a point...

He indeed has a point. There is no doubt that the German actions lead to the disadvantages of Poland today. Barring a reversal of time, how would one go about settling past wrongs to 'right' the present condition? Reparations only worsen an already bad situation.

58 posted on 06/21/2007 12:11:58 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick
I think your viewpoint is valid.

However, there is a fundamental disconnect in the European Constitution.

You have the European Parliament, analogous to our House and which is elected according to population.

Then you have the European Council which is analogous to our Senate.

However, unlike our Senate, the Council's 27 ministers (one for each country) have unequal, weighted votes.

If I were Poland I would demand that - as in the US Senate - each state receive one equal vote in the Council.

That would be far more useful than any sort of reparations.

59 posted on 06/21/2007 12:12:32 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: RWR8189

The Germans lost 7 million soldiers and civilians in WW2, and Poland got 40,000 square miles of German territory. Apparently the “history obsessed” twins aren’t aware of that. And how many Poles did the Soviets kill, hmm?


60 posted on 06/21/2007 12:17:04 PM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: SolidWood
Some people apparently don’t grasp the concept of genocide.

I certainly do, and I'm not making any excuses for it. I'm saying you simply cannot atone for it through vote-weighting.

If the Poles get extra votes, that dilutes the voting power of Britain and all the other nations who fought against the Nazis. How is that fair to them?

And to take the Polish president's argument to its logical--though ridiculious--extreme: the Nazi regime also killed millions of Germans. Are the German people of today (the vast majority of whom were born after the defeat of the Nazis) entitled to extra votes because their nation, too, would have had a larger population had it not been for the crimes of a long dead regime?

Again, my point is this: There is no fair way to try to figure out what the world would be like today if history had been different.
61 posted on 06/21/2007 12:17:17 PM PDT by mngran
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To: RWR8189

And lets not forget that the russians were complicit as well in the murder of the polish officer corps during the war.


62 posted on 06/21/2007 12:17:54 PM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Defeat liberalism, its the right thing to do for America.)
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To: wideawake

Isn’t the European Parliament impotent in front of the respective national governments of the constituent EU states?

One-equal-vote-per-state-regardless-of-its-size-or-population-policy that you suggested might make a greater mess than the current situation has, with tiny city-states having as much power and influence as the big ones.

Anyway, Europe has always been its own worst enemy, so I don’t know if history is going to come back full circle now. Isn’t it around when this time, last century, WW-I was in the plans?

:^)


63 posted on 06/21/2007 12:18:49 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: thackney
Why stop there?

You are right. That wouldn't eliminate the Polish complaints, would it. Let's go with 1795. That would solve the problem. http://www.polishroots.org/genpoland/polhistory.htm

64 posted on 06/21/2007 12:19:55 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35
That would solve the Polish complaints. Italy may be more interested in the borders from a different time period.


65 posted on 06/21/2007 12:21:58 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

Heh heh heh!


66 posted on 06/21/2007 12:22:33 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: RWR8189

Poland’s population losses during World War II were proportionately by far the greatest of any nation participating in the war. Of its 35 million people before the war, Poland lost 6.5 million. An estimated 664,000 were battlefield deaths (this figure exceeds combined losses of the United States and Great Britain in WWII), and the remainder, or 90 percent, were civilians of all ages.

The Nazi German death machine in the Nazi-occupied half of Poland killed:

3 million of the 3.3 million Jews who lived in Poland before World War II, or 90 percent of the Jewish population.

More than 2 million Polish Catholics, with special emphasis on eliminating the national elites.

One out of four (25 percent) of Catholic clergy.
One out of four (25 percent) of all Polish scientists.
One out of five (20 percent) of all Polish schoolteachers.
200,000 Polish children were deported to Germany for purposes of Germanization. 150,000, or 75 percent, never returned to their families in Poland.

The Soviet death machine in the Soviet-occupied half of Poland killed:

21,000 Polish officers murdered by the NKVD in the Katyn Forest and elsewhere.

Between 1.6 million and 1.25 million Poles (the lowest estimate) were deported to Siberia and Kazakhstan between 1939-1941 as a result of Soviet “ethnic cleansing”. An estimated four-fifths died either directly or as a result of privations incurred during the deportations.

State Security in Soviet-occupied Poland between 1945-1955 murdered tens of thousands of political, military and intellectual leaders. Exact figures are still unavailable owing to the impossibility to conduct research in this area in Soviet-occupied Poland.

Moscow’s policies designed to debilitate the Polish nation included, among others, the following instruction: “While rebuilding the [Polish] industry and building new industry, make sure that industrial waste is directed to rivers which will be used as reservoirs of drinking water.”


67 posted on 06/21/2007 12:22:48 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: thackney

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Circa 1630.

68 posted on 06/21/2007 12:24:39 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: mngran

“Should we try to figure out whether the addional population Washington would have had were it not for this murderous Utah resident would entitle Washington to extra votes in the electoral college? “

You have a point that’s well made — however, Poland lost millions of people. I can understand the PM’s opinion, even though I don’t agree that it’s anything Germany could have done anything to stop, given Hitler’s MO at the time.


69 posted on 06/21/2007 12:26:39 PM PDT by WaterWheeler
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To: wideawake

So basically every EU state has its own national and regional governments to be “taken care” by, then the added headache of the European Parliament, and as icing, the European Council?

That’s a lot of “government” for countries the size of provinces.


70 posted on 06/21/2007 12:27:00 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: RWR8189
"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."

How about this:

"If Poland had not lived through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 0."

By the way, how did Poland's population fare under communism during the Cold War? Not just the death rate, but the birth rate as well. Does Poland today have the same massive abortion problem as Russia?

I'd love to see Silesia, Pommerania, Danzig, and East Prussia go back to Germany (this is nostalgia; I'd be just as happy to see Sweden back in Pommerania too or the huge old Poland-Lithuania ;)). Why doesn't Poland complain about the half of their country Stalin seized and is now in the hands of Belarus, Ukraine, and Lithuania? What happened to the Poles who lived in those lands? Though a wikipedia article says there were many who weren't Poles over there.

Also, Poland's population is up 43% compared to what it had in 1939. Germany is up 18%. They should quit whining about birthrates when they already have 27 EU votes vs. Germany's 29.

71 posted on 06/21/2007 12:28:01 PM PDT by Styria
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To: CarrotAndStick
Isn’t the European Parliament impotent in front of the respective national governments of the constituent EU states?

It is less so with each passing year.

One-equal-vote-per-state-regardless-of-its-size-or-population-policy that you suggested might make a greater mess than the current situation has, with tiny city-states having as much power and influence as the big ones.

Similar arguments could be made by Californians about Vermont, with a population not much larger than Long Beach, having 2 Senators.

Anyway, Europe has always been its own worst enemy, so I don’t know if history is going to come back full circle now. Isn’t it around when this time, last century, WW-I was in the plans?

On the German side, yes.

72 posted on 06/21/2007 12:31:19 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

How much real power does the European equivalent of a Congressman have over the European equivalent of a Senator?

Is the post of the Council members, as I am assuming, largely ceremonial?


73 posted on 06/21/2007 12:34:54 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: wideawake
On the German side, yes.

Germany supported Austria in what was a completely legitimate War on Terror. It was the western powers who were spoiling for a fight and declared war on Germany, essentially siding with the Serbian terrorists.
74 posted on 06/21/2007 12:36:30 PM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
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To: CarrotAndStick
As much as you’d want to wish the Polish well, I honestly don’t see a movement in this direction towards reparations/ power redistribution, etc., doing anything to improve the situation the parties involved, are in presently. Even if they did, what would the reparations consist of? Who determines how long it should go on? To whom? For how many generations?

I don't believe in reperations, what I do believe is that Germany simply should not benefit from a situation it created only a few decades after (and for reasons similiar to those that are motivating it today).

The remedy won't be easy, but creating a situation by using illegal means and then trying to benefit from the fruits of the labor from those illegal means, is not proper.

75 posted on 06/21/2007 12:41:40 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: mngran
You keep on about serial killers writing books, but we're not talking about writing books, we're talking about votes. Here's one for you: The Green River Killer murdered at least 48 women in Washington state in the '70s through '90s. He was from Utah. Should we try to figure out whether the addional population Washington would have had were it not for this murderous Utah resident would entitle Washington to extra votes in the electoral college? That's the kind of thing you're advocating.

Using the scenario of different states and the electorial college, if Utah invaded washington and its neighboring states, for the sole purpose of taking control of the country, and killed off large chunks of the population but failed, should Utah still be able to claim, come census time, we should get more electorial votes, why, we have more people, how? Because we killed off chunks of the other states populations. If one state reduces another states population in a bid for power, do they get a pass? that is what you are advocating.

76 posted on 06/21/2007 12:44:55 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: RWR8189

Am I a weirdo for finding this hilarious for some strange reason?


77 posted on 06/21/2007 12:46:25 PM PDT by jmc813 (www.imwithfred.com - DONATE!)
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To: Sonny M
The remedy won't be easy, but creating a situation by using illegal means and then trying to benefit from the fruits of the labor from those illegal means, is not proper.

Of course, it is not going to be easy. But it is also impossible to account for, too. That kind of renders the whole argument for undoing the past, aimless.

At most, they can build a memorial to each other's wrongs, and carry on. At worst, they can fight it off again. Like Europeans(and most likely, groups of every living being on earth) have always been accustomed to, and settle it once-and-for-all. Until another issue can be thought of, to seek vengeance for, that is.

78 posted on 06/21/2007 12:46:53 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: Sonny M
If one state reduces another states population in a bid for power, do they get a pass?

The whole point is that. Other than prosecuting those directly involved in the crime, technically and practically, nothing can be done.

79 posted on 06/21/2007 12:49:05 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick
I don't know how many exchanges it would take to admit that the past is the past, and nothing else can be done to change it. Non-quantifiable losses cannot be reparated, is what I'd think regarding the matter in question.

The past is the past, If I robbed someone today, 48 hours from, can I use the excuse "past is the past" when my victim is around?.

I don't know what the time frame should be, should it be centries, decades, or just minuits, and hours?

Germany can say the past is the past, Iraq, after being booted out of Kuwait, could have said the same thing the next year. The question, should you do something that is wrong, or illegal, thus creating a situation where you get to enjoy the benefit from those prior bad acts, and dismiss any naysaying with "the past is the past". In theory, I can rob people, and argue that moments later.

80 posted on 06/21/2007 12:49:54 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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Comment #81 Removed by Moderator

To: Sonny M
The past is the past, If I robbed someone today, 48 hours from, can I use the excuse "past is the past" when my victim is around?.

Therein lies the rub. Are the victims around? Are the perps around? Besides, there is this thing in law called the Statute of Limitations. I don't know what to make of it, but here is the Wiki definition:

STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS.

Statutes of limitations is predicated on the notion of fairness. Over time memories fade, evidence is lost or never found, and people prefer to get on with their lives without legal intrusions from the past. This idea is reflected in the various lengths of limitations periods. For example, some crimes such as murder or war crimes (see Rome Statute) are deemed so horrific that they have no limitations period in some jurisdictions. Generally, actions relating to real property have longer limitations periods and slander and libel usually have short periods. Japan is one country that does have a statute of limitations for murder. There, if murderers manage to evade the law for 25 years after committing a homicide, they will be free to go public with details of the crime.

From time to time, controversy arises because some horrific crimes have been discovered, but the perpetrator escapes due to the statute of limitation or prescription.

Another reason for statutes of limitations is closure, certainty, or repose. This encourages entities such as courts and law enforcement agencies to allocate resources to more timely concerns. The limitations period also permits entities and individuals to conduct their business without fear of being sued for something far in the past. For civil actions, statutes of limitations usually range between one and ten years. In Nevada, for example, it is two years and in New Mexico and New York, three.

82 posted on 06/21/2007 1:00:09 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: dfwgator
Poland would then have to reclaim the land the Soviets stole from them after the war. I don't think the Ukrainians and Belarussians would much care for that

Putin sure would not care for it. And don't forget that Poland used the lack of an effective government in Russia afer WWI to push its Eastern borders well into lands that were primarily populated by non-Poles. Lithuanians, White Russians and Ukrainians. Poland would have a lot more people, but a number of millions of those people would not be, ethnically, Polish.

83 posted on 06/21/2007 1:09:58 PM PDT by Pilsner
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To: RWR8189
With respect to Polish freepers, this is a crazy argument by your prime minister.

How big would Germany be without the war and its pre-war (or even pre-World War 1) borders intact? How big would France be? Austria even. Or the myriad other mainland European countries which were occupied by the Third Reich?

How big would Ireland be without the potato famine?

How big would the world be without millions being murdered via abortion every year?

Poland deserves representation in the EU parliament.

84 posted on 06/21/2007 1:16:35 PM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: vox_PL
Only WWII finally stopped that mad expansion of those barbarians and restored justice after 1000 years of German wars.

And if you go back another 500 years, the territory was in Germanic hands. My point: It's all nonsense. If you argue with what could have been if history had gone otherwise, you can basically claim anything. My initial point is just as valid as the Kaczynski's remarks: They're both moronic, because they are not based on fact, but on emotion / perception, thus being subjective instead of objective.



Case in point: One could say Prussia just "recovered" Germanic territories *LOL.

There's a saying in German which goes like this: "Wenn Kuhscheiss Butter wär..." (If cow sh*t were butter... e.g. farmers would be millionaires).
85 posted on 06/21/2007 1:18:57 PM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
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Comment #86 Removed by Moderator

To: wolf78
Germany supported Austria in what was a completely legitimate War on Terror.

Germany had been waiting for an excuse to invade France.

Serbian terrorism, a purely local phenomenon, was merely a pretext.

And no, this is not to say that France wasn't begging for it.

87 posted on 06/21/2007 1:26:27 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: CarrotAndStick
Is the post of the Council members, as I am assuming, largely ceremonial?

Actually, no. They have real power - much like the British House of Lords could, they can demand pretty substantial changes in Parliamentary legislation and block stuff until they get their way.

88 posted on 06/21/2007 1:28:02 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: CarrotAndStick
Therein lies the rub. Are the victims around? Are the perps around? Besides, there is this thing in law called the Statute of Limitations. I don't know what to make of it,

I thought this was kind of interesting.

For example, some crimes such as murder or war crimes (see Rome Statute) are deemed so horrific that they have no limitations period in some jurisdictions.

I'm not even going that far, I just do not think Germany should benefit in the here and now, for something not to long ago. I am not saying they should never, ever be allowed to move on.

89 posted on 06/21/2007 1:28:10 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: RWR8189

And you would still have your horse cavalry if you didn’t charge them at German tanks.


90 posted on 06/21/2007 1:29:52 PM PDT by Sensei Ern (http://www.myspace.com/reconcomedy - Ann Coulter is My Press Secretary)
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To: Sonny M

I’m only interested in how they will manage to solve the whole situation amicably. That solution, if it exists, can be applied to thousands of similar situations across the world.

I’m not holding my breath, waiting for the solution though.

:^)


91 posted on 06/21/2007 1:31:21 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: Sonny M

You haven´t forgotten that millions of Germans died during WW2, too, and that Germany lost 1/3 of its territory compared to the 1937 borders?


92 posted on 06/21/2007 1:32:28 PM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: RWR8189

I suggest the Poles start “gettin’ busy” then!


93 posted on 06/21/2007 1:34:07 PM PDT by Fledermaus (The Republican party is dead! Let's start over. Nevermind, what's the point?)
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To: toddlintown

Ok, so will you give native Americans 101 additional seats in Senate? Or should Ireland get more votes from the Brits because the great famine caused by the Englishmen killed many Irish? You can´t sum it up. It´s history.


94 posted on 06/21/2007 1:35:02 PM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: PAR35

“At the end there has to be some, let’s say, agreement.”
-—<>-—<>-—<>-—<>-—<>-—

I believe this “agreement” must eventually be, “Scrap this foolish agreement”.


95 posted on 06/21/2007 1:37:59 PM PDT by AFPhys ((.Praying for President Bush, our troops, their families, and all my American neighbors..))
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To: Sonny M

How does Germany BENEFIT from WW2? Do you think more innocents should have died? The complete destruction of the big cities wasn´t enough? It´s not that no Germans died during WW2.


96 posted on 06/21/2007 1:38:53 PM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: Sonny M
I thought this was kind of interesting.

So, what will the progeny of the wronged granpappy's grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-children have to say now?

Or were they just "not-so-special" people?

:^)

97 posted on 06/21/2007 1:40:24 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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Comment #98 Removed by Moderator

To: AFPhys
I believe this “agreement” must eventually be, “Scrap this foolish agreement”.

The whole argument is in a one-way, dead-end street. And what you suggest is the only way out.

99 posted on 06/21/2007 1:41:47 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick
I just thought of an amusing conversation that kind of sums this whole thing up.

Germany: "We should have more power"

Poland: "Why?"

Germany: "We have more people."

Poland: Now how did that happen?

Germany: Well, you see, a few years ago, we wanted more power, so we kind of went out and killed alot of your folks, so now we outnumber you.

Poland stares in silence, for a few moments before responding.

Poland: WHAT????????? You came to our lands to increase your power, killed our people, and now say that since you have more people, you should have more power?

Germany: Yes, why that is quite logical, and besides, that was in the past.

Poland: So because you commit mass murder, and you want more power?

Germany: Mass murder is an ugly word, we prefer the term "participating in history", by the way, how is your parents doing?

Poland: You shot them, remember?

Germany: Well, you get my point, your family is smaller then mine, now give me more power.

Poland: Your mad.

100 posted on 06/21/2007 1:43:09 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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