Posted on 06/26/2007 5:39:45 AM PDT by cll
Is Puerto Rico really a part of the United States? And if it is, is it worth defending from attack? That's the emerging issue right now because Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez has just made his first threat on the U.S . commonwealth as he seeks to acquire advanced submarines.
Chavez is heading to Russia in the next few days, to discuss the purchase of five kilo-class submarines, and possibly four more advanced amur-class subs. There are questions as to how he would be able to finance them as well as how obtain the advanced training to bring them online, but there is no question from his statments that he wants them. Saturday, he laid it all out as AFP reported:
"They're making all this noise because Venezuela is going to buy some submarines. And I told them, 'Why not?'" Chavez said without confirming or denying the rumor.
"We've got half a million square kilometers of (Caribbean) sea, to the north, we've got Puerto Rico, in other words the empire (as he calls the United States), and France in the western Caribbean islands. We've got a huge sea," he said apparently alluding the use to which Venezuela's submarines would be put.
If Chavez succeeds in getting his hands on these submarines, the broad picture is that he will have the biggest submarine force in South America, bigger than Brazil, Argentina or Colombia, with a patrol range extending from Halifax, Canada to Montevideo, Uruguay. He will be in a position to patrol the entire Gulf of Mexico out of U.S. naval surveillance unless the battery-operated submarines surface for air, something they only need to do once a day, in the case of the Kilo-class subs and perhaps less with the more advanced models. The only way to monitor their moves will be to catch them exiting ports, a difficult task.
What's most disturbing is not the range, though, but that Chavez seems to want explicitly to direct them at Puerto Rico and France's two Overseas Departments of Martinique and Guadaloupe, both of which, in U.S . terms, have the status of states.
Although there are many islands in the Caribbean Sea and the Gulf Of Mexico, and many colonial powers, it's significant that Chavez alluded to the U.S.'s and France's prime presences there. In the past he's threatened Netherlands and its overseas territories, and he's always hated Britain, but now he seems to have singled out France. While Chavez's antipathy to the U.S. is well-known, what's less well-known is that France's new president, Nicolas Sarkozy, has an interest in the region and a clear understanding about Chavez. He's stepped up his ties to Venezuela's battered neighbor, Colombia, and probably will become more active in the region as Chavez's aggression steps up. Chavez knows this, and wants to throw out a few threat to France and the U.S. now.
Chavez's threats against the U.S. (and France) signal a first shot in a new level of confrontation with the West. Gone are the days of his devil speeches, he now seems to want to only communicate through weaponry and offering explicit plans as to how he intends to use them - starting with Puerto Rico. We better be paying attention.
Yes. Since 1898.
To answer the broader question, this is getting out of hand, this Chavez deal. We cannot continue to write him off as a buffoon.
When you buy Citgo fuel or some of his “reduced price” Citgo home heating oil - THIS IS WHAT YOU SUPPORT!!
TAKE THAT BLACK SLUDGE AND SELL IT SOMEWHERE ELSE! WE DON’T WANT IT!
sort of is more correct.
since July 25 1950 Puerto Rico is what is known as a "free associated state" which means that the door is open for them to be independent anytime they wish - Puerto Ricans pay no Federal Income Tax (they fill out the same forms but the bucks stay in PR). They cannot vote in US elections, but they are US citizens and have honorably and ably served in the US Armed Forces since 1898.
Somehow I find it difficult to see the Venezuelan Navy as a great threat.
What are they going to do, shell San Juan?
If they do, the US Navy will destroy them in about an hour.
DU members buy CITGO. But we all know that they’re traitors and sell-outs.
Yet another example of the old saying “a fool and his money are soon parted”.
There are two vital sea lanes straddling Puerto Rico - the Mona and Virgin Passages. These are important approaches to the Panama Canal. He could slow worldwide trade to a crawl if he were to blockade shipping there alone.
My bet would be ships...I would also bet that our ASW guys would have a BIG surprise ready for them.
I agree. This is just silly.
The Mouse that Roared....
They could give us a problem. Very quiet if equipped with fuel cell drive. If top end they also carry missiles.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/677.htm
Chavez loves the Jackal - he often refers to him in his speeches, he visited the Jackal in prison soon after his first "election" and he believes the Jackal is a political prisoner and a true revolutionary.
That being said, if he thinks he can seize Martinique, the French will had him his head like the UK treated the Argentine junta in the Falklands.
Martinique is considered by the French and the French government not to be a colony or an overseas possession, but a part of France proper, like Lyons or Strasbourg.
“This is just silly.”
More propaganda than anything,IMO.
The American left will praise him for preparing to stand up to “the oppressers.”
Many in Venezuela will see it as a boost to national power and assurance that “They Count!”
Since most of the third worlders in that area subscribe to the “ bigger gun” philosophy, Hugo comes out as top jeffe.
Only an unknowing moron would think that.
These guys have been up against the absolute BEST for more than 60 yrs. They have my faith and trust.
How about sinking an oil tanker at the entrance to the Panama Canal? Anonymously, of course. We're not talking about a mentally stable guy here. He could do enough mischief with one or two anti-social acts to throw the economy of the western hemisphere into quite a tizzy.
Of course, he'd pay for it in spades. But never depend on a lunatic to pay much attention to the things that might deter a sane person.
Leftists that hang out at DU and vote Democrat have been in a funk ever since Reagan defeated the USSR in the cold war.
All they had left was Coooobah & their Che T-Shirts.
Now, they have Chavez and Venezuela as their new hope. It’s like Star Wars Episode IV for them.
“Chavez is heading to Russia in the next few days, to discuss the purchase of five kilo-class submarines, and possibly four more advanced amur-class subs. There are questions as to how he would be able to finance them as well as how obtain the advanced training to bring them online...”
The Russians will sell military hardware to any old slag these days...
Well, you know how to sink a Russian submarine, don’t you?
Put it in water.
lol
I don’t know who’s crazier, Ahmednutjob or Hugo Chavez. Has anyone paged Nicolas Sarkozy to the white courtesy phone yet?
The problem is nut jobs with a martyr complex. They can cause all kinds of mischief...
You don’t need a sub to do that.
And sinking a tanker is not as easy as it sounds.
Besides, few tankers use the canal anymore. It’s too small.
Possibly a decent description of Chavez.
Then a freighter maybe. But the fact remains, a hostile sub in the Caribbean would throw the entire area into chaos. Not forever, but long enough to provoke a major international incident and tank the stock markets.
“That being said, if he thinks he can seize Martinique, the French will had him his head like the UK treated the Argentine junta in the Falklands.”
You’re assuming the French have something the British do ... cojones. Come on get real. The French battle flag is a white cloth tied to a stick for crying out loud...
As for buying submarines...let the jerk buy all he can afford. Each one is a Navy Cross waiting to happen for some deserving USN skipper.
“a hostile sub in the Caribbean would throw the entire area into chaos”
It would at least ruin my yearly southern/eastern Caribbean cruise...
The French are as tough as the British. The French special forces compare quite favorably with US, UK, Israeli and Australian special forces.
The difference is this: the US, UK and Aussies are willing to risk their lives for the good of the whole world - they will go into battle on principle to defend freedom.
The French only go into battle to defend their monetary interests and their own territory.
The French do not care about world opinion in general and do not care at all when these issues are at stake.
Despite international opprobrium, the French conducted nuclear tests in the South Pacific.
The French sent in their special forces to take control of the nation of Cote d'Ivoire.
The French blew up a Greenpeace vessel solely because they believed it posed a risk of espionage.
The French have zero problem projecting force when the mood strikes them. They may have been no match for the Wehrmacht, but they can more than handle the Venezuelan Navy.
If Chavez moves against Martinique it will enrage the majority of the French public. France has an aircraft carrier, the US will definitely give Sarkozy a blessing to use it in the Caribbean, and it is precisely the kind of intervention which the French approve of and which will help Sarkozy in the polls.
Hardly. If Hugo starts any crap that ocean will have several new artifical reefs courtesy of US Navy.
L
Subs eh? We ain’t going to do anything about it save do our usual blow fish act.
So he buys subs, where does he get the bubbleheads to run it?
Venezuela makes claims to some other islands too I believe.
Tho’ they’re quite dated now, my friends and I used to play the heck out of all the numbered “Fleet” games by Victory Games.
IIRC the Carribean scenarios, gaining a marginal victory on points by staying aloat for more than a week was about all that the p*ssant powers could do and that was when they were rolling the dice well.
That was also assuming that the US was extremely busy elsewhere in the world fighting one and a half to two wars at once.
Course those games were based on the near 600 ship Navy we had back then too...
Great games, very intense, especially the North Atlantic ones, defending the GIUK gaps against Soviet sub surges from their Far North, trying to maintain a CAP line against Backfire attacks on our convoys, taking the 2nd Fleet into the Barents to attack the Bear in his lair (like getting naked, smearing your self with honey and standing under a bee’s nest doing the pinata thing!).
Somehow, I think the Foreign Legionaires serving in nearby Guyana would tend to disagree with you...
The French Foreign Legion has never in their history won a single battle against an opposing military force.
Instead they celebrate their most glorious defeats.
Let’s get real, here. Venezuela has no real submariner tradition, they have no trained crews, no infrastructure to handle the beasts, and no where to get parts except from overseas.
It won’t be long before these shiny new submarines resemble Iran’s F-14’s.
I always buy ABC fuel - Anything But Citgo!
I think they are always a penny or 2 cheaper because they stole the energy infrastructure from private companies and aren't saddled with such 'development' costs.
When you buy from them you are feeding the enemy.
"Don't feed the mouth that bites you".
Technically correct, but I'm guessing you're aware that their mission is, and historically has been, somewhat different than that of conventional units. One of the primary reasons they recruited foreigners was for those dirty little operations in colonial holdings so the French could apply pressure without worrying about the outcry at home over the spilt blood of Frenchmen. They are largely by design, expendable.
The FFL is not unique in, "celebrating glorious defeats." Remember the Alamo? (or Pearl Harbor, or Thermopylae, or...)
I think D/E subs pose a very great threat, be they from Iran or Venezuela.
From a US Navy Captain.....
Like many other major issues facing today’s Navy, our current concerns about ASW trace back to the end of the Cold War and our subsequent redirection of emphasis toward potential conflict in the littorals. Our existing ASW capabilities are largely those that had been so painstakingly created to prevail over the Soviets in a global, deep-water conflict, and they are only partially adequate for the new and different environments we face today.
Shallow water, near-shore oceanographic phenomena, asymmetric diesel and advanced Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarine threats, and meager information about the potential battle space all contribute to significant uncertainties about our ability to contain the new and different undersea threat we face now.....
...we are no longer seriously challenged at sea, except perhaps by local naval powers intent on acquiring modern submarine forces or new mine warfare capabilities. Consequently, we have not been able to practice ASW very realistically.
Also, although our equipment has grown older and less effective, we have not noticed much impact, because the challenge has been so minimal. Nevertheless, the Navy’s ASW proficiency has declined in the last decade, and we must reassess future requirements and capabilities to meet an uncertain but still-dangerous threat.....
They’re right. The USN has other issues right now and can’t spend all its time interdicting Venezuela’s sub fleet. But, if his subs launch a torpedo or missile at friendly ship or drop a mine near a friendly port, we will find out about it and then it is all over for his subs, him and for Venezuela.
Meanwhile it costs a substantial sum of money to keep the his sub fleet maintained, and even more to keep it at sea. The only plus for him is that keeping his subs at sea works up his crews.
Like it or not Chavez and Venezuela have a right to purchase or build such weaponry as they deem necessary for their own defense. If I were Hugo, I'd be working more building infrastructure and promoting industry, so I could build it at home rather than in the USSR, er, Russia. But that's me.
Actually, they lease it. And they don't have any control over the Caribbean approaches to it. I'm not even sure the Chinese would be all that upset about destabilizing the western hemisphere, if they could get a patsy like Hugo to take all the risks.
As for buying submarines...let the jerk buy all he can afford. Each one is a Navy Cross waiting to happen for some deserving USN skipper.
Yeah, they wouldn't stand a chance in a stand up fight, but that's not why ya buy subs.
I'm thinking more in the nature of nation-sponsored terrorism. A single strike against a freighter in the gulf would close down shipping traffic for a month, maybe. And by the time the Navy was on scene, the sub could be sitting back in port in Caracas or Maracaibo, looking innocent. Until the next mission.
The effect on the economy of the hemisphere would be devastating, and it would require a full wartime response.
And don't be too quick to hand out the Navy Crosses to the commanding officers... it could also mean posthumous purple hearts for entire crews of smaller craft like destroyers. And as an ex-sonarman (USN '66-'70), finding and killing a sub is far from a sure thing.
I mean, it would be swell to blow one up, but let's not let our bravado overcome our common sense, or ya might get to visit Davey Jones' Locker.
I would find a war between France and Venezuela highly amusing entertainment.
Ah, Victory Games!
Chavez thought he needed Bobbleheads vs Bubbleheads !
He has a surplus of those !
Actually I have to disagree. IMO the French have more b@lls than the (current lot of) Brits do. Goodness, not only have the Brits been cutting defense spending like wars and aggression were a thing of the past, but the term 'Euro-weenie' is starting to shift more and more to them. Which nation BTW stood by and let their sailors get bl@@dy abducted by the Iranians (with reports stating that one of the soldiers was even crying when his IPod was taken away)? Those sailors were taken with no resistance whatsoever (and it was shown by the Aussies just how easy it was to fend the Iranians off). As for the French - they have been anti-American over the last several decades, but that doesn't necessarily make them weak. And when the need arises they can do things that the Brits could never think of doing (e.g. when the French sunk a Greenpeace ship)
Anyways, the Brits are far closer allies than the French are (although with Blair going out in the UK, and Sarkozy coming in in France .....who knows), but the whole adage that the French flag equals surrender while the British one is a bastion of fortitude is starting to look a bit frayed on the sides. Substitute British Flag with Aussie flag and i will agree. For now the UK is one of the most PC places on the globe by far.
As as for Chavez taking martinique ....that would be a major mistake. The French may be anti-American frog-eating cheese-loving folk, but they simply have too many ways of making someone like Chavez suffer.
Culturally part of Latin America.
BTW: Good article.
“but they are US citizens and have honorably and ably served in the US Armed Forces since 1898”
Thank you for noting that.
They have my faith and confidence too - but the latest generation of non-nuclear subs are very, very quiet. We have been training against one we leased from Germany(?) for a while now, but I don’t like over confidence.
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