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Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'
The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; conspiracy; grassyknoll; grassyknollsociety; jfk; jfkassassination; magicbullet; notthisshitagain; oswald; tinfoil
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To: tpaine
Sorry, we've been through this a few times before. Your assumption of the second shot missing is incorrect. Here's my analysis and what looks more to what the evidence suggests. Again, remember this is what I suggest. It is MY opinion, not based on the Warren commission or any of the numerous books on second shooters, AR-15's or anyone stuck in a drain. the Zapruder film is remarkable in the sense of a timeline and a fixed record of the event. Had shots come from the grassy Knoll as many have suggested, the reaction from Zapruder would have been to turn the camera in that direction to film or look. Niether of which happened. the event took place in front of him and his reactions to the gunshots is recorded on that film. His reactions, the camera jiggles, occur AFTER the shot since the sound will follow the impact.

Frame 202

A few frames before the first shot is fired. Notice the girl in the pink sweater at the top of the picture. Keep her in mind. Also notice the clarity of the picture, steady and fairly focused. Remember Zapruder has a fear of heights and is being supported by his secretary on the pedestal in the park area.

The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203

The picture is now a blur as Zapruder reacts to the shot and the camera jiggles. This shot ricochets of the curb sending shrapnel around, hitting James Tauge(sp) under the triple overpass and showering the back of Kennedy's head.

Frame 205. The follow up car and the girl in the sweater.

Back in focus. The girl in the pink sweater is reacting to a sound from behind her. The follow up car is also starting to react and notice the proximity to the limo itself. Kennedy is disappearing behind the sign.

Frame 225.

Out from behind the sign Kennedy is still reacting to the first shot. His mouth is open in surprise and Connally is begining his turn to the right to look behind him.

The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227

Again the camera jiggles from the reaction to the sound of the gunshot. Kennedy is begining to react, Connaly looks as if he has turned completely to his right in the space of milliseconds, indicating he is also hit.

Frame 229. Both men react to the shot.

Both men are now reacting . Kennedy, shot through the neck has suffered a possibly fatal wound. This bullet has entered his back just below the collar line and exited out his throat. It has also damaged his neck causing the reaction seen here. Both arms are locked in place in reaction to the damage at this point.

Frame 228 Both men react.

Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. Connaly sitting lower and inboard in the jumpseat in front of the president is in a direct line to the TSBD.

Frame 235 The reaction continues.

Connaly is now slumped fully to his right as the lung collapses. Kennedy will be locked in this position until the fatal headshot. There is a medical term for this position after an injury to the spine. I will find the name if you'd like.

Frame 265 Connaly collapses, Kennedy is paralyzed.

This frame shows Connaly completely turned to his right and about to be pulled into his wife's arms. Kennedy has become paralyzed, fists clenched, arms upright and locked, and sitting upright due to the brace he wore for his back injury from WW2 and surgery to help alleviate the pain. This brace will hold him up to die.

Frame 311 Jackie leans in.

Jackie is leaning in trying to see what is wrong and pushing on Kennedy's arm to lower it. Connaly is in his wife Nellie's arms and out of the line of sight. Jackie is terribly close to the path of the last and final shot.

Frame 313 The Fatal Headshot.

John Patrick Kennedy receives the fatal wound.

Having visited Dealy Plaza on a number of occasions I have walked the entire length and area in the Zapruder film. We are talking maybe 30-40 yards of distance for all this to happen. There is a gentle slope aweay from the TSBD and accounts for much of the angles of fire into the limo carrying the entourage.

Frame 318 The head snap.

The reason Kennedy's head snaps back is the brace he is wearing. It was designed to keep his upper body rigid for extended periods such as a motorcade. When the fatal shot was fired all motor control ceased as his brain was pulverized and the motor areas disintegrated. Arms dropped and the body was snapped in place by the brace.

Three shots. All by Oswald. Acting alone.

351 posted on 07/02/2007 8:10:39 AM PDT by Pistolshot (We sleep safe, knowing good men and women are willing to do violence on our behalf.)
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To: RGPII
Maybe instead of everyone saying, 3 shots, first cartridge is loaded; the presumption is 3 shots after the initial one if there were possibly four shots.

That makes good sense, why eject the last round? Does anyone know if there was one left in the chamber?

352 posted on 07/02/2007 8:33:19 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: SoCal Pubbie
"There is NO evidence that anyone else was involved in the crime. No other fingerprints, no other gunshots. No minutes of secret meetings of Oswald and a coconspirator. No help in escaping from Dallas. Nothing. Yet many cannot accept the simple truth."

Nothing there, that's why 10,000 files and pieces of evidence are locked up until the year 2038 and some of it may be indeed related to National Security.

That said, I hope no one takes this to heart as offensive anything I might say. Like someone said earlier, all of the speculation and curiosity on the subject is riveting. Even, if I don't get wrapped up in it; the same sorts of questions with other events of the times exist and maybe they appear to be whacked out subjects, like UFOs and other things.

I've lived in Dallas a few years after this event. One shouldn't fault those who are curious just viewing all of this.

353 posted on 07/02/2007 8:38:09 AM PDT by RGPII
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To: Shooter 2.5
I gave my kid a lever action and it was so funny. Since he’s new school and I’m old school I had to remind him to chamber after every shot. He’s so used to semi’s. Kids these days. Since he came back from Iraq he hasn’t had the SAW. He’s back carrying an M-16.

Too funny! Didn't he ever see the TV show the Rifleman? Thank him for serving for me! It's kind of neat shooting a lever action.

354 posted on 07/02/2007 8:41:28 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: RGPII
I don’t know what Lawyer Garry Spence’s political beliefs are; but I remember when he was part of the trial of LHO on TV: a trial I believe he lost btw;

To the left of Che...

355 posted on 07/02/2007 8:42:20 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Pistolshot
If the conspiracy nuts are right and the last head shot Did come from the front wouldn’t Jacki been shot instead? According to your pictures her head would have been in the way.
356 posted on 07/02/2007 8:57:04 AM PDT by painter (Oval Office, Fred. Might be something you ought to think about.)
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To: Pistolshot

Man, I’m impressed! Where did you get and who
do you have to know to obtain those remarkable
photographs?


357 posted on 07/02/2007 8:57:12 AM PDT by Proud2b4America (Protect and defend the Constitution!)
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To: SoCal Pubbie; y'all
Why do most people accept the events of 9/11 as presented yet reject the Warren Report?

Because the Warren Report [as presented in 1964] was full of arguable assumptions [like the single bullet theory] made by the Warren Commission.

What makes the JFK killing so powerful, -- that people believe --- their own lying eyes?

The Zapruder film - and it's timeline, - make them believe their eyes, - and disbelieve the Commission's theories.

358 posted on 07/02/2007 9:08:44 AM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: REDWOOD99

LOL! EXCELLENT!


359 posted on 07/02/2007 9:12:14 AM PDT by bigjoesaddle ("What we are making is a socialist utopia" - Jim Jones)
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To: tpaine
FBI goes on after the House hearings of the '70s to say their conclusion of 4 shots is wrong; but reading up last night,

Dallas Police Tapes were found of the events of Nov. 22, '63; and they worked out the "dictabelt" Dictabelt article and found there were four shots and listening to the tapes, a lot would agree with that.

But now, it would be the same sort of deal to say, "no, still 3 shots" like looking at what the Zapruder films seems to say; and I do understand the argument of hitting a target and the way it might move. -----------

I'll still be a John Candy fan no matter what; he played Dean Andrews in that movie; curious;



Quotes from the movie (the real life guy was supposed to be something like this):

"Why you keep dancing on my head for, my man? We been thicker'n molasses pie since law school."

"They put the heat on, my man, just like you're doing. I gave'em anything that popped into my cabeza. Truth is, I never met the dude."

"Hey, pipe the bimbo in red. What ever happened to that little gal you was dating in the Quarter - from Opelousas, y'know, elevator didn't go to the top floor but t--s could smother gumbo with."

And more pertinent material from the movie at script

360 posted on 07/02/2007 9:50:43 AM PDT by RGPII
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To: quadrant

You’re right. Conservatives tend not to understand the left. I’d be a rich man if I had a buck for every time I heard one say: “I can’t understand why ...” or “I can’t believe they’re going this ...” or “I’m shocked ...”

No conservative should be surprised by anything these people do anymore. Until we stop being surprised, we won’t be as effective as we need to be.


361 posted on 07/02/2007 9:56:59 AM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: ReignOfError
Jim Garrison...

I knew an attorney years ago who was a Tulane Grad who's first job out of law school was as an assistant DA in Garrison's office before and during Garrison's JFK "trial." His opinion (and according to him the near unanimous opinion of the people who actually worked in that office) was that Jim Garrison was a totally crooked, (even by New Orleans' low standards), two-bit hustler.

362 posted on 07/02/2007 10:26:30 AM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: Shooter 2.5

As I have said before, Mr Johnson, we are not going to change each others minds on this. ~yawn~


363 posted on 07/02/2007 11:13:01 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Pistolshot; y'all
The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203
The picture is now a blur as Zapruder reacts to the shot and the camera jiggles. This shot ricochets of the curb sending shrapnel around, hitting James Tauge(sp) under the triple overpass and showering the back of Kennedy's head. Frame 205. The follow up car and the girl in the sweater. Back in focus. The girl in the pink sweater is reacting to a sound from behind her. The follow up car is also starting to react and notice the proximity to the limo itself. Kennedy is disappearing behind the sign.
Frame 225.
Out from behind the sign Kennedy is still reacting to the first shot. His mouth is open in surprise and Connally is begining his turn to the right to look behind him.
The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227
Again the camera jiggles from the reaction to the sound of the gunshot. Kennedy is begining to react, Connaly looks as if he has turned completely to his right in the space of milliseconds, indicating he is also hit.

You claim only 23 frames elapsed time between the first and second shots.

According to the Report it takes 2.8 seconds to cycle Oswald's rifle. At a camera speed of 18.8 frames per second, 23 frames equals less than 1.4 second. - Thus, - Oswald could not have fired both shots.

364 posted on 07/02/2007 12:31:53 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: RobbyS

Why didnt Oswald shoot when he had a torso and head shot opportunity instead of straight away when he had only the head shot?


365 posted on 07/02/2007 1:37:56 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: HEY4QDEMS

“I’m referring to a compensation of aim, “

Still impossible to do on a moving object - a stationary target where you use kentucky windage, sure but not in this case.


366 posted on 07/02/2007 1:39:37 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: PackerBoy
This test has been replicated 100 times. Many have been able to duplicate Oswald’s apparent fete.

I believe you meant feat.

fete noun, plural fetes, verb, fet·ed, fet·ing.
–noun

1. a day of celebration; holiday: The Fourth of July is a great American fete.

2. a festive celebration or entertainment: The ball was the greatest fete of the season.

3. a religious feast or festival: a fete lasting several days in honor of a saint.

–verb (used with object)

4. to entertain at or honor with a fete: to fete a visiting celebrity.

367 posted on 07/02/2007 1:45:55 PM PDT by TChris (The Republican Party is merely the Democrat Party's "away" jersey - Vox Day)
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To: Pistolshot

Maybe Oswald was a lone gunman. I just find it hard to believe. I’m a pretty good shot myself. I qualified expert marksman in the military too, every time I had to qualify. What Oswald would have had to have done would have been kind of like shooting a duck in mid air with a bolt action rifle, hitting it twice while firing in rapid sucesseion with almost no time to re-aim. Maybe he did that, but it my opinion it is more likely that there was at least one other shooter. Of course my opinions are not always right and I am certainly no expert on the events that transpired on the day of the Kennedy asasination.


368 posted on 07/02/2007 2:14:51 PM PDT by TKDietz
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To: Lx

Oswald chambered a fourth unfired round. There were three empty cartidges found on the floor of the “sniper’s nest”. The two guys eating lunch on the fifth floor not only heard the three shots but they also heard the three empties hitting the floor through the open windows. Dust and debris fell down on them from the fifth floor ceiling with each shot.


369 posted on 07/02/2007 3:08:45 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Pistolshot

Nice but Connelly’s lapel flips out at frame 224.


370 posted on 07/02/2007 3:14:49 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Proud2b4America; tpaine
As I have said REPEATEDLY IN OTHER THREADS. These are MY opinion on the sequence. And after owning and firing a number of Carcanos I can attest the action is much faster than what the Warren Commission is using as it basis.
Remember that rifle was dropped on the floor between boxes of books while LHO made his escape, it wasn't just placed there in a proper manner. Once the scope was knocked askew it had to be realigned for the WC testing. There is no telling what other damage may have occured. Marina also testified that LHO practiced with the rifle quite often repeatedly loading and chambering rounds into the rifle.

Now for the pictures....http://www.assassinationresearch.com
There are blow ups of frame by frame of the entire Zapruder film, including the sprocket section.

371 posted on 07/02/2007 4:11:46 PM PDT by Pistolshot (We sleep safe, knowing good men and women are willing to do violence on our behalf.)
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To: Shooter 2.5
While that is correct, Connaly does not react for a number of frames. As I said. I judge the shots based on the 'jiggle ' of the camera. Of course the sound, traveling slower that the bullet will reach Zapruder AFTER the shot has struck.
Better frame by frame blowup.
372 posted on 07/02/2007 4:19:52 PM PDT by Pistolshot (We sleep safe, knowing good men and women are willing to do violence on our behalf.)
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To: spanalot

From what I could tell, his view coming down the street was obscured by the tops of the trees. He shot through the gaps. Also he was positioned by the window, and he could swing the barrel to the right pretty much through a 90 degree angle. Anyway, I think I would have done the same.


373 posted on 07/02/2007 5:19:41 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: TKDietz
My father had one of these same rifles, bought before the Kennedy assassination. It was a piece of crap. It was not an accurate weapon. You could just look at the thing and see that the workmanship put into making the thing was terrible. It was junk

Depends when it was made. I was in production for almost 50 years.

Oswald's was made in 1940. Italy was not in the war, or had only just entered. Either way peacetime quality control was still in effect. Later standards declined.

374 posted on 07/02/2007 5:22:49 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy
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To: Ditto
And there was noting "clunker" about that rifle. It was and remains a fine, accurate weapon. The only reason it was so cheep then ($15 ?) is because there were tens of thousands of them on the surplus market.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the quality of those rifles. I've never fired one but I've had the opportunity to hold and inspect and shuck the action on a couple of 'em in good shape.

MM (in TX)

375 posted on 07/02/2007 6:06:22 PM PDT by MississippiMan (Behold now behemoth...he moves his tail like a cedar. Job 40:17)
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To: Pistolshot

A doctor wrote that Connelly didn’t react until his perforated lung collapsed. The list of events that I posted is more suited to the actual events such as the lapel flying outward. People’s reaction can take seconds and due to the film evidence we have it broken down to 1/18 of a second.

Simply put, we don’t know how long it took for the little girl to react or Zapruder to shake his camera. The physical evidence such as the lapel and Kennedy’s final wound are more accurate interpretations.

But anyway, good job on the Zapruder frames. I learned about the little girl from you. When asked later, she said she had stopped running when she heard and saw the man shooting from the window.


376 posted on 07/02/2007 6:19:04 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: MississippiMan
We'll have to agree to disagree on the quality of those rifles. I've never fired one but I've had the opportunity to hold and inspect and shuck the action on a couple of 'em in good shape.

I have never fired one either, but according to people who have, they were an accurate, albeit not to be confused with higher priced rifles that were built to take a lot of abuse such as the M1 Garand or Springfield. It's draw back was long term reliability under battlefield conditions, not accuracy.

My understanding is back then they were a perfectly fine deer rifle for people who wanted to shoot at deer a couple of days a year and not spend a lot of money to do it.

From the distances Oswald was shooting --- between 40 and 90 yards -- damn near any weapon would have worked just as well and the shot he took a few months earlier at Gen Walker from over 100 yards with the same rifle showed that it was more than accurate 'enough.' Walker was one damn lucky SOB that Oswald didn't take his head off when the round he fired grazed the window frame.

As I attempted to say before, people focus on the price these rifles were selling at then. The price had nothing to do with how accurate or serviceable they were. The price only reflects how saturated the market was with WWII military surplus equipment from all over the world.

For gun collecters, it was the golden age.

377 posted on 07/02/2007 7:16:51 PM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: Pistolshot

Here’s another version. As you can see, Zapruder shook his camera 158-160. That gives the 8.3 seconds to frame 313. 3.6 seconds between the first and second shot. It also shows that the little girl is starting to look to her right.
First shot at 158-160
Second shot at 224
Third shot at 313

Frame by Frame breakdown of the Zapruder Film
With some various theories that have been presented.

Compiled by I. Marc Carlson.
This page was last edited on 30 March 2003
Frame # Event
140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous “Ear-witnesses” recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket — which can happen when striking a tree branch]
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper’s view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder’s view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy’s hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis’s photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy’s leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy’s back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally’s right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally’s suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest.
225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy’s arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of “Thorburn’s Position”, as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally’s hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
228 Kennedy’s torso pitches forward suddenly (to 231)
229 Connally’s hat drops to its original position.
229-233 Mrs. Connally claimed her husband was shot about this time.
231-234 Connally told the Warren Commission that this was when he remembered being hit.
231 Kennedy stops moving forward.
234 Connally later determines it was at this point. [This is likely when Connally tried to take his next regular breath, the lung punctured only 2/3s of a second before collapsed, and making him feel like he’d just been hit; or, he IS hit at this point and his lung collapses at this point].
235 Connally’s mouth opens wide and his body begins to react to the collapsed lung, drawing him down and to the right.
255 Estimated point at which Ike Altgens’ picture is shot [showing what appears to be Oswald in the SBD doorway, and an open window in the second floor Dal-Tex broom closet. It also appears to show the crack in the windshield left by bullet fragments (see 337) ].
309?- Zapruder jiggles his camera.
312 Kennedy’s head pitches forward suddenly.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy’s head, shattering the occipital bone and generating tremendous force in the flesh of the brain. The upper right side of his head explodes, blowing brains and bit of bone in an expanding pink cloud. The pieces of the parietal and temporal sections of his skull remain attached by skin, and so fall back into place, creating the appearance of an intact skull. His head lurches back to the left (8.0-8.4 seconds after the first shot) as his body stiffens suddenly from the massive neurological damage, and possibly aggravated by his back brace, or, if you wish, studies have also shown that the head flying back and to the left is also possible because of the matter ejected by the right side of his head exploding in a simple Newtonian happening. The film clearly shows the back of the head to be clean.
by 320 The two officers riding (to the left?) behind the car are splattered with bood and brains, after driving up to and passing through the cloud blown out of the President. (allegedly, a section of Kennedy’s right occipital bone was found by Billy Harper, some 35 feet to the left and rear of the impact point
321 Kennedy is slumped to his left, the right parietal area of his skull completely exposed.
337 Kennedy is sliding into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, much of the flesh and bone of his skull hanging hinged by the skin. Two large bullet fragments were found in the car (44.6 and 21.0 grains = 65.6 grains) after they dented some chrome and damaged the windshield, and a “pristine” (Magic) bullet at the hospital (158.6 grains). The average weight of a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is 161.2 grains. The six fragments removed from Connally would have weighed not more than 1.5 grains all together.
Sources:

Groden, Robert J. The Killing of a President. New York: Penguin Books, 1993.
Posner, Gerald. Case Closed, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assasination of JFK. New York: Random House, 1993


378 posted on 07/02/2007 7:42:11 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

Tague has his own website and book; apparently he is in the camp that believes there was a shot from the grassy knoll from the reviews of his book on amazon.

Of course, besides Kennedy and Connolly, he was the other victim of the gunfire at Dealey Plaza.

http://www.jamestague.com/


379 posted on 07/02/2007 8:05:00 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: cmiller623
Yes to what you say. But those that believe there were more gunman there believe the evidence shows it. The others don’t want too believe it. What about the guy with the umbrella opening it as a marker to start shooting. So many things didn’t add up that day. How about Johnson’s executive order to push more troops to Viet Nam. Arlen Spector was the lawyer for the Warren Commission. Gerald Ford handled the FBI and all these guys got paid back in spades. Coincidences? No.

I always thought the umbrella man part, was more of a fringe element in this, but to see the picture of the UM and his companion then sit down on the curb, while you see other people in the plaza hitting the deck in the aftermath of the gunfire is a bit astonishing and as the writer of the link points out, the umbrella man is in the zapruder film with accompanying pictures on the webpage. Of course, the author of the webpage adds some extreme theory about what the umbrella could have done in addition; but altogether, it's a good essay.

380 posted on 07/02/2007 9:10:43 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: RGPII
There was no one on the grassy knoll behind the picket fence based on the photographs and sworn testimony.
No trajectories match from the grassy knoll.
No bullets were found to the rear of the victims.
No wounds match from the grassy knoll.
The few people who claim there was “something” on the grassy knoll lied about their locations.
Zapruder filmed the corner of the picket fence and there was no one there.
The people standing on the sidewalk never claimed there was anyone behind the picket fence.

Parking lots such as the one behind the picket fence are used for automobiles which use internal combustion engines. Internal combustion engines have a device called exhaust pipes that emits exhaust, commonly called “smoke”.

381 posted on 07/03/2007 5:13:25 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

According to the wikipedia article; I know, not foolproof; but the figures should be fairly accurate;

104 eyewitnesses testified;

“...56 (53.8%) thought that they came from the direction of the Texas School Book Depository, 35 (33.7%) thought that they came from the area of the grassy knoll or the Triple Underpass...”-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination

Hardly, easily dismissed as “The few people who claim there was “something” on the grassy knoll lied about their locations.”


382 posted on 07/03/2007 7:09:01 AM PDT by RGPII
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To: y'all; Pistolshot
Your version of the sequence does not allow enough time between the 1st and second shots. In your opinion only 23 frames elapsed time between the first and second shots.
According to the Report it takes 2.8 seconds to cycle Oswald's rifle. At a camera speed of 18.8 frames per second, 23 frames equals less than 1.4 second.
- Thus, - Oswald could not have fired both shots.

Here's another flawed sequence, based on Carlson's work, with my comments in bold:

First shot at 158-160
Second shot at 224
Third shot at 313

Frame by Frame breakdown of the Zapruder Film
With some various theories that have been presented.
Compiled by I. Marc Carlson.
Frame # Event

140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous ?Ear-witnesses? recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
This shot [almost straight down out of Oswalds window] missed, and supposedly could ricochet nearly 90 degrees [off what?] down to the overpass? - Impossible.
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. {Oswald is not aiming along that "line" till at least frame #224]
A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket - which can happen when striking a tree branch]
Striking a tree branch deflects the bullet almost 90 degrees downrange to Tague? - Virtually impossible.
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper?s view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder?s view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy?s hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis's photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy?s leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy?s back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally?s right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally?s suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest. 225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy?s arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of ?Thorburn?s Position?, as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally?s hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
Fine. - If we assume the single bullet theory is correct, both men were shot at frame # 224, - which leaves Oswald 90 frames [less than 4.8 seconds] to fire two shots, one of which misses and hits the curb.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy?s head --

Thus we see, - a shot at frame 160 could not ricochet that far.
And, there was not enought time for a missed shot between frames 224/313.

When did the 'curb shot' take place?

383 posted on 07/03/2007 7:55:59 AM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: Ditto

Understood on the price point. Way on up into the later 60s and even into the 70s, you could buy a lot of military surplus rifles dirt cheap. Heck, for many years you could buy a surplus SKS for $50-$60, until the market finally became aware of what a decent little semi-auto it was/is.

My own classification of the O-rifle as a clunker was based on the sloppiness of the action as compared to most bolt-action rifles I’ve shucked, and I’ve shucked a few. I can only say that my own memory of the rifle tends to corroborate the claim of these Italian chaps who claim you just can’t fire three shots that quickly with that rifle.

MM (in TX)


384 posted on 07/03/2007 11:31:48 AM PDT by MississippiMan (Behold now behemoth...he moves his tail like a cedar. Job 40:17)
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To: RGPII

The few people who claimed they saw a person or a rifle lied about their locations.

The bowl shaped plaza created an echo that even Zapruder said the sound echoed all around him. He never claimed there was a shooter only a few yards away behind the fence. I have to remind you Zapruder filmed the corner of the fence and there was no one there.

Fact: There was no one behind the fence based on the eyewitness sworn testimony of the railroad switchman and the motorcycle officer who was the first to arrive behind the fence.

Fact: There was no assassin on the triple bypass since it was already occupied by two police officers and more than half a dozen railroad workers. The officers could not remove the workers since they were all on railroad property.


385 posted on 07/03/2007 3:15:08 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: DugwayDuke
You clearly know more about shooting than I do, so I bow to your expertise in that area. But the fact remains that Oswald was a very poor shot, notably so for a Marine, and failed all but his last qualifying test to earn the marksman ranking --- which, as I understand, is the lowest ranking among Marines.

Now I can also make the argument that he wasn't even at the window shooting, but we'll leave that for another round of discussion.

386 posted on 07/03/2007 3:24:32 PM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: JoeA

“...and failed all but his last qualifying test to earn the marksman ranking -— which, as I understand, is the lowest ranking among Marines.”

Actually, the History Channel showed that Oswald qualified at least twice. They also showed where he scored 48 of 50 and 49 of 50 at 200 yards. This would have been with iron sights and not with a scope. The President was only 88 yards away from his sniper post.

I really don’t understand why you even bring up the fact that Oswald may have been a relatively poor shot for a Marine. It only reinforces that fact that he was still a pretty good shot.


387 posted on 07/03/2007 3:59:07 PM PDT by DugwayDuke (A patriot will cast their vote in the manner most likely to deny power to democrats.)
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To: TKDietz

I agree with you- I was an expert shot and hunted when I was a kid. I have always believe that the shots were extremely lucky or another shooter was there.

Think about this
1- A moving target that kept moving
2- Using a bolt action rifle
3- I never seen anything about Oswald practicing with the rifle- one would need to practise with a rifle of that type- also I know he was a Marine therefore knew how to shoot.
4- Was Oswald a marksman? Every marksman I know need to continue to hone their skills.
5- Oh how about the pressure that you are going to kill the President of The United States- no minor thing
6- Pressure that you will get caught- he ran away-
7 Has anyone been able to replicate the 3 shots from the Book Depository’s window with a car or limo moving at the same speed on a simlar time and day?
8- Why does the Warren Com report need to be kept secret after all this time?

I have visited the Book Depository in Dallas and do not think I could have made the shots eventhough I have shot birds in flight with a pump 22 at 30 to 50 yards

If these questions can be answered I will change my view of the Warren Comm report

Help!


388 posted on 07/03/2007 4:01:48 PM PDT by EdArt (free to be)
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To: EdArt
1.The car view was almost stationary based on the angles. You can see for yourself. The Sixth Floor Museum has a live camera if you had missed that post in this thread.

2.It doesn’t take that long to learn to shoot with a bolt or lever action. It just takes a couple of hours to instill the muscle memory. Millions of deer hunters don’t use semi’s.

3.Marina, Oswald’s wife said he practiced cycling the action for hours. It’s in her sworn testimony. He also practiced at the Trinity River with live fire.

4.He qualified as a sharpshooter but his last qualification was marksman. His senior officers testified his shooting ability wasn’t an issue.

5. I don’t know of any Presidential assassin who had a problem pulling the trigger. Perhaps a sane person might have issues.

6.An innocent man wouldn’t have run away. He was the ONLY employee who left the area and didn’t report back to work.

7. Just about everyone who has tried it. The NRA, FBI and a host of people on YouTube. You haven’t read this thread yet, have you?

The Warren Report has been out for years. I have an old faded copy. You can find it on the internet in it’s entirety.

389 posted on 07/03/2007 4:39:03 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5
My recollection from the railroad workers interviews, those on the overpass, was that at least three of them thought a shot came from the knoll. Two claiming smoke in the bushes.

If they ran down the stairs before they could get to the area behind the fence, they would not have noticed someone leaving quickly.

I welcome any information you can direct me to.

were the people running to the knoll just following the motorcycle cop or were they just misguided? Thank you.

390 posted on 07/03/2007 4:52:37 PM PDT by herMANroberts
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To: herMANroberts

There are no stairs on the overpass. The pathway leads to the parking lot behind the fence. All the police or the railroad workers needed was a line of sight and all of it is very short distances.

People reported smoke in a parking lot which isn’t that unusual. I have to remember how smoky a 1950’s and 1960’s car was. Notice no one mentions muzzle blasts or orange flashes.

The people running toward the parking lot and picket fence were trying to catch a glimpse of the limo as it drove north on I-35 on it’s way to Parkland Hospital. The triple bypass is part of the exchange for the highway. One lane goes north, the other south and the middle continues west.


391 posted on 07/03/2007 5:09:20 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5; All

Jean Hill had inconsistent testimony, that doesn’t make 35 people liars, including the only other man injured by the gunfire besides Connolly and Kennedy, James Tague and that was in his testimony to the Warren Commission! ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tague ); so he is not a liar.

And furthermore; Britain’s Forensic Science Society confirms the original HSCA’s findings of a fourth shot per the police dictabelt.

“In fact, the author of the article, D.B. Thomas, a government scientist and JFK assassination researcher, said it was more than 96 percent certain that there was a shot from the grassy knoll to the right of the president’s limousine, in addition to the three shots from a book depository window above and behind the president’s limousine.”

“The study’s author said the chances that the National Academy of Science’s single-gunman theory was correct were 1 in 100,000. “

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id64.htm


Also, just for all; an additional note on the new Bugliosi book;

It contains a photo section including much what looks like the post that is on this page with the pictures of the Motorcade. Sure, the wording is different but it still might be similar.

The Bugliosi book came out May 15th, 2007; let’s see how it is reviewed after being around for awhile.


392 posted on 07/03/2007 5:17:07 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: ladyinred
Okay, I am among those who do not believe the Warren Commission findings! I never have, I never will.

I was open minded at first, but over the last forty years have read enough to convince me that Oswald did not act alone. The autopsy clinched it for me.

393 posted on 07/03/2007 5:20:16 PM PDT by Churchillspirit (We are all foot soldiers in this War On Terror.)
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To: 1066AD
They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet.

"Is that all I am to you? A piece of meat?"

394 posted on 07/03/2007 5:21:40 PM PDT by x
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To: Shooter 2.5
Yes, perhaps a ramp or dirt path.

The smoke was not from the parking lot. I think smoke was reported from the front of the bushes.

I think in order to see the report they would have had to be looking there sooner. They would have most likely been looking at the president's car until they heard a shot.

I don't remember anyone saying they were running up the knoll to see the car. Was the cop leaving his vehicle to run up the knoll and look at the limo? If I had a citation, I would read it.

395 posted on 07/03/2007 5:22:25 PM PDT by herMANroberts
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To: RGPII
35 (33.7%) thought that they came from the area of the grassy knoll or the Triple Underpass...”-

Your post not mine. There was no one on the grassy knoll behind the picket fence. That leaves the triple bypass. Oh, wait. there were two police officers there and more than a half dozen RR workers. I guess that leaves the Book Depository, doesn't it?

I have a question for you. Why would a person on the knoll shoot at James Tague?

396 posted on 07/03/2007 5:26:57 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

We all know, James Tague was injured from a bullet striking the curb and the subsequent fragments of concrete or of the bullet flying up onto his cheek and bloodying it.

“Of the source of the gunfire, Tague testified to the Warren Commission that the shots were “coming from my left,” “by the, whatever you call the monument” (the pergola monument on the grassy knoll). Reinforcing himself in a 1966 interview for the documentary Rush to Judgment about the origin of the gunfire he remembered hearing, Tague stated that some gunfire came from the direction of the grassy knoll.”- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tague


397 posted on 07/03/2007 5:34:43 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: herMANroberts

The motorcycle officer ran his cycle toward the overpass and was waved off by the officers on the top. He then placed his the cycle to the base of the stairs leading to the picket fence and ran the rest of the way up. His sworn testimony says there was no one there. The railroad switchman in the tower testified he spotted the officer coming up the stairs to the fenceline. He also testified no one was there. The crowds followed a few minutes later.

The first person to mention someone on the knoll was the guy laying down on the grass with his wife and child. They lived in the same town as I did. He said he thought the shot came from the knoll solely based on Kennedy’s head movement. Not the sound. We now know the initial bullet impact drove Kennedy’s head forward 2.3 inches


398 posted on 07/03/2007 5:38:23 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

Thanx, I’ll try to find something on the cop.


399 posted on 07/03/2007 5:40:07 PM PDT by herMANroberts
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To: RGPII
(the pergola monument on the grassy knoll).

This gets better and better. What do you think Zapruder was standing on? Maybe I should rephrase the question. How did James Tague get hit from where Zapruder was filming?

400 posted on 07/03/2007 5:44:15 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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