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Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'
The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.

TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; conspiracy; grassyknoll; grassyknollsociety; jfk; jfkassassination; magicbullet; notthisshitagain; oswald; tinfoil
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There was no one on the grassy knoll behind the picket fence based on the photographs and sworn testimony.
No trajectories match from the grassy knoll.
No bullets were found to the rear of the victims.
No wounds match from the grassy knoll.
The few people who claim there was “something” on the grassy knoll lied about their locations.
Zapruder filmed the corner of the picket fence and there was no one there.
The people standing on the sidewalk never claimed there was anyone behind the picket fence.

Parking lots such as the one behind the picket fence are used for automobiles which use internal combustion engines. Internal combustion engines have a device called exhaust pipes that emits exhaust, commonly called “smoke”.

381 posted on 07/03/2007 5:13:25 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

According to the wikipedia article; I know, not foolproof; but the figures should be fairly accurate;

104 eyewitnesses testified;

“...56 (53.8%) thought that they came from the direction of the Texas School Book Depository, 35 (33.7%) thought that they came from the area of the grassy knoll or the Triple Underpass...”-

Hardly, easily dismissed as “The few people who claim there was “something” on the grassy knoll lied about their locations.”

382 posted on 07/03/2007 7:09:01 AM PDT by RGPII
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To: y'all; Pistolshot
Your version of the sequence does not allow enough time between the 1st and second shots. In your opinion only 23 frames elapsed time between the first and second shots.
According to the Report it takes 2.8 seconds to cycle Oswald's rifle. At a camera speed of 18.8 frames per second, 23 frames equals less than 1.4 second.
- Thus, - Oswald could not have fired both shots.

Here's another flawed sequence, based on Carlson's work, with my comments in bold:

First shot at 158-160
Second shot at 224
Third shot at 313

Frame by Frame breakdown of the Zapruder Film
With some various theories that have been presented.
Compiled by I. Marc Carlson.
Frame # Event

140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous ?Ear-witnesses? recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
This shot [almost straight down out of Oswalds window] missed, and supposedly could ricochet nearly 90 degrees [off what?] down to the overpass? - Impossible.
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. {Oswald is not aiming along that "line" till at least frame #224]
A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket - which can happen when striking a tree branch]
Striking a tree branch deflects the bullet almost 90 degrees downrange to Tague? - Virtually impossible.
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper?s view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder?s view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy?s hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis's photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy?s leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy?s back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally?s right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally?s suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest. 225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy?s arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of ?Thorburn?s Position?, as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally?s hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
Fine. - If we assume the single bullet theory is correct, both men were shot at frame # 224, - which leaves Oswald 90 frames [less than 4.8 seconds] to fire two shots, one of which misses and hits the curb.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy?s head --

Thus we see, - a shot at frame 160 could not ricochet that far.
And, there was not enought time for a missed shot between frames 224/313.

When did the 'curb shot' take place?

383 posted on 07/03/2007 7:55:59 AM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: Ditto

Understood on the price point. Way on up into the later 60s and even into the 70s, you could buy a lot of military surplus rifles dirt cheap. Heck, for many years you could buy a surplus SKS for $50-$60, until the market finally became aware of what a decent little semi-auto it was/is.

My own classification of the O-rifle as a clunker was based on the sloppiness of the action as compared to most bolt-action rifles I’ve shucked, and I’ve shucked a few. I can only say that my own memory of the rifle tends to corroborate the claim of these Italian chaps who claim you just can’t fire three shots that quickly with that rifle.

MM (in TX)

384 posted on 07/03/2007 11:31:48 AM PDT by MississippiMan (Behold now behemoth...he moves his tail like a cedar. Job 40:17)
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The few people who claimed they saw a person or a rifle lied about their locations.

The bowl shaped plaza created an echo that even Zapruder said the sound echoed all around him. He never claimed there was a shooter only a few yards away behind the fence. I have to remind you Zapruder filmed the corner of the fence and there was no one there.

Fact: There was no one behind the fence based on the eyewitness sworn testimony of the railroad switchman and the motorcycle officer who was the first to arrive behind the fence.

Fact: There was no assassin on the triple bypass since it was already occupied by two police officers and more than half a dozen railroad workers. The officers could not remove the workers since they were all on railroad property.

385 posted on 07/03/2007 3:15:08 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: DugwayDuke
You clearly know more about shooting than I do, so I bow to your expertise in that area. But the fact remains that Oswald was a very poor shot, notably so for a Marine, and failed all but his last qualifying test to earn the marksman ranking --- which, as I understand, is the lowest ranking among Marines.

Now I can also make the argument that he wasn't even at the window shooting, but we'll leave that for another round of discussion.

386 posted on 07/03/2007 3:24:32 PM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: JoeA

“...and failed all but his last qualifying test to earn the marksman ranking -— which, as I understand, is the lowest ranking among Marines.”

Actually, the History Channel showed that Oswald qualified at least twice. They also showed where he scored 48 of 50 and 49 of 50 at 200 yards. This would have been with iron sights and not with a scope. The President was only 88 yards away from his sniper post.

I really don’t understand why you even bring up the fact that Oswald may have been a relatively poor shot for a Marine. It only reinforces that fact that he was still a pretty good shot.

387 posted on 07/03/2007 3:59:07 PM PDT by DugwayDuke (A patriot will cast their vote in the manner most likely to deny power to democrats.)
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To: TKDietz

I agree with you- I was an expert shot and hunted when I was a kid. I have always believe that the shots were extremely lucky or another shooter was there.

Think about this
1- A moving target that kept moving
2- Using a bolt action rifle
3- I never seen anything about Oswald practicing with the rifle- one would need to practise with a rifle of that type- also I know he was a Marine therefore knew how to shoot.
4- Was Oswald a marksman? Every marksman I know need to continue to hone their skills.
5- Oh how about the pressure that you are going to kill the President of The United States- no minor thing
6- Pressure that you will get caught- he ran away-
7 Has anyone been able to replicate the 3 shots from the Book Depository’s window with a car or limo moving at the same speed on a simlar time and day?
8- Why does the Warren Com report need to be kept secret after all this time?

I have visited the Book Depository in Dallas and do not think I could have made the shots eventhough I have shot birds in flight with a pump 22 at 30 to 50 yards

If these questions can be answered I will change my view of the Warren Comm report


388 posted on 07/03/2007 4:01:48 PM PDT by EdArt (free to be)
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To: EdArt
1.The car view was almost stationary based on the angles. You can see for yourself. The Sixth Floor Museum has a live camera if you had missed that post in this thread.

2.It doesn’t take that long to learn to shoot with a bolt or lever action. It just takes a couple of hours to instill the muscle memory. Millions of deer hunters don’t use semi’s.

3.Marina, Oswald’s wife said he practiced cycling the action for hours. It’s in her sworn testimony. He also practiced at the Trinity River with live fire.

4.He qualified as a sharpshooter but his last qualification was marksman. His senior officers testified his shooting ability wasn’t an issue.

5. I don’t know of any Presidential assassin who had a problem pulling the trigger. Perhaps a sane person might have issues.

6.An innocent man wouldn’t have run away. He was the ONLY employee who left the area and didn’t report back to work.

7. Just about everyone who has tried it. The NRA, FBI and a host of people on YouTube. You haven’t read this thread yet, have you?

The Warren Report has been out for years. I have an old faded copy. You can find it on the internet in it’s entirety.

389 posted on 07/03/2007 4:39:03 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5
My recollection from the railroad workers interviews, those on the overpass, was that at least three of them thought a shot came from the knoll. Two claiming smoke in the bushes.

If they ran down the stairs before they could get to the area behind the fence, they would not have noticed someone leaving quickly.

I welcome any information you can direct me to.

were the people running to the knoll just following the motorcycle cop or were they just misguided? Thank you.

390 posted on 07/03/2007 4:52:37 PM PDT by herMANroberts
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To: herMANroberts

There are no stairs on the overpass. The pathway leads to the parking lot behind the fence. All the police or the railroad workers needed was a line of sight and all of it is very short distances.

People reported smoke in a parking lot which isn’t that unusual. I have to remember how smoky a 1950’s and 1960’s car was. Notice no one mentions muzzle blasts or orange flashes.

The people running toward the parking lot and picket fence were trying to catch a glimpse of the limo as it drove north on I-35 on it’s way to Parkland Hospital. The triple bypass is part of the exchange for the highway. One lane goes north, the other south and the middle continues west.

391 posted on 07/03/2007 5:09:20 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5; All

Jean Hill had inconsistent testimony, that doesn’t make 35 people liars, including the only other man injured by the gunfire besides Connolly and Kennedy, James Tague and that was in his testimony to the Warren Commission! ( ); so he is not a liar.

And furthermore; Britain’s Forensic Science Society confirms the original HSCA’s findings of a fourth shot per the police dictabelt.

“In fact, the author of the article, D.B. Thomas, a government scientist and JFK assassination researcher, said it was more than 96 percent certain that there was a shot from the grassy knoll to the right of the president’s limousine, in addition to the three shots from a book depository window above and behind the president’s limousine.”

“The study’s author said the chances that the National Academy of Science’s single-gunman theory was correct were 1 in 100,000. “

Also, just for all; an additional note on the new Bugliosi book;

It contains a photo section including much what looks like the post that is on this page with the pictures of the Motorcade. Sure, the wording is different but it still might be similar.

The Bugliosi book came out May 15th, 2007; let’s see how it is reviewed after being around for awhile.

392 posted on 07/03/2007 5:17:07 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: ladyinred
Okay, I am among those who do not believe the Warren Commission findings! I never have, I never will.

I was open minded at first, but over the last forty years have read enough to convince me that Oswald did not act alone. The autopsy clinched it for me.

393 posted on 07/03/2007 5:20:16 PM PDT by Churchillspirit (We are all foot soldiers in this War On Terror.)
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To: 1066AD
They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet.

"Is that all I am to you? A piece of meat?"

394 posted on 07/03/2007 5:21:40 PM PDT by x
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To: Shooter 2.5
Yes, perhaps a ramp or dirt path.

The smoke was not from the parking lot. I think smoke was reported from the front of the bushes.

I think in order to see the report they would have had to be looking there sooner. They would have most likely been looking at the president's car until they heard a shot.

I don't remember anyone saying they were running up the knoll to see the car. Was the cop leaving his vehicle to run up the knoll and look at the limo? If I had a citation, I would read it.

395 posted on 07/03/2007 5:22:25 PM PDT by herMANroberts
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35 (33.7%) thought that they came from the area of the grassy knoll or the Triple Underpass...”-

Your post not mine. There was no one on the grassy knoll behind the picket fence. That leaves the triple bypass. Oh, wait. there were two police officers there and more than a half dozen RR workers. I guess that leaves the Book Depository, doesn't it?

I have a question for you. Why would a person on the knoll shoot at James Tague?

396 posted on 07/03/2007 5:26:57 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

We all know, James Tague was injured from a bullet striking the curb and the subsequent fragments of concrete or of the bullet flying up onto his cheek and bloodying it.

“Of the source of the gunfire, Tague testified to the Warren Commission that the shots were “coming from my left,” “by the, whatever you call the monument” (the pergola monument on the grassy knoll). Reinforcing himself in a 1966 interview for the documentary Rush to Judgment about the origin of the gunfire he remembered hearing, Tague stated that some gunfire came from the direction of the grassy knoll.”-

397 posted on 07/03/2007 5:34:43 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: herMANroberts

The motorcycle officer ran his cycle toward the overpass and was waved off by the officers on the top. He then placed his the cycle to the base of the stairs leading to the picket fence and ran the rest of the way up. His sworn testimony says there was no one there. The railroad switchman in the tower testified he spotted the officer coming up the stairs to the fenceline. He also testified no one was there. The crowds followed a few minutes later.

The first person to mention someone on the knoll was the guy laying down on the grass with his wife and child. They lived in the same town as I did. He said he thought the shot came from the knoll solely based on Kennedy’s head movement. Not the sound. We now know the initial bullet impact drove Kennedy’s head forward 2.3 inches

398 posted on 07/03/2007 5:38:23 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

Thanx, I’ll try to find something on the cop.

399 posted on 07/03/2007 5:40:07 PM PDT by herMANroberts
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(the pergola monument on the grassy knoll).

This gets better and better. What do you think Zapruder was standing on? Maybe I should rephrase the question. How did James Tague get hit from where Zapruder was filming?

400 posted on 07/03/2007 5:44:15 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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