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Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'
The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; conspiracy; grassyknoll; grassyknollsociety; jfk; jfkassassination; magicbullet; notthisshitagain; oswald; tinfoil
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To: RGPII

You’re probably right. But you’d think that after forty four years we’d have run out of things to debate.


551 posted on 07/10/2007 10:29:08 AM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: JoeA

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/150107ciaman.htm

E Howard Hunt felt Johnson was behind it. See the link to his book before he died.


552 posted on 07/12/2007 10:06:50 AM PDT by cmiller623 (Mayor Antonio Villa....or never mind. Los Angeles is doomed!)
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To: jazusamo

Thank you. Cannot believe it took 12 posts to show up.


553 posted on 07/12/2007 10:15:57 AM PDT by Bogtrotter52 (Reading DU daily so you won't hafta)
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To: 1066AD

This will never end. Anyone with an agenda can bring up things that can’t be proved or disproved. It sells books.


554 posted on 07/12/2007 10:30:09 AM PDT by Leftism is Mentally Deranged
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To: cmiller623; YCTHouston

Now that Lady Bird has passed, truths will start to be revealed. There are many who have written that she was being protected because she was the last of the living.


555 posted on 07/12/2007 10:31:54 AM PDT by BUSHdude2000 (Get the embedded reporters out of Iraq and finish the job)
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To: muawiyah
It's a trick question/answer deal. Almost a stereotypical joke ~ if you get my drift.
The Italian Army could not load and fire 3 rounds in 19 seconds. Lee Harvey Oswald made sure that his first round was already loaded before he started the clock ticking.
That meant he had only to fire 3 rounds and load 2 rounds. The Italians did not take that precaution and had to fire 3 rounds AND load 3 rounds.

Also, these "tests" start by setting "time zero" with an independent event (i.e. "start... NOW!"). Oswald's elapsed time started at the moment he fired his first shot -- he could have taken as long as he liked before then.

Thus, the "tests" compare how long it takes someone else to load and fire three bullets with how long it took Oswald to load and fire two bullets -- Oswald got the first shot free because the clock didn't start running for him until he fired it.

556 posted on 07/12/2007 10:33:57 AM PDT by steve-b (It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get struck by lightning.)
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To: bad company
This is why conspiracy nuts are called nuts.

Yep. It's just like the 9/11 conspiracy idiots who think "Occam's Razor" is the brand name of box cutter used by the hijackers.

557 posted on 07/12/2007 10:35:16 AM PDT by steve-b (It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get struck by lightning.)
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To: 1066AD
Case Closed by Gerald Posner -

the definitive study of what happened and who participated.

I moved to Dallas in 1975 and in 1978 (I believe that was the year) the Dallas Morning News ran a story about how the Secret Service had to come to Dallas and inspect part of the curbing along the street by the "grassy knoll" because the city wanted to install a storm drain. The city got their okay and installed the new storm drain.

In less than a year, a British production company was peddling a new theory about how a gunman was hiding in the storm drain and actually fired the kill shot. Oh well, why let 15 years get in the way of your story.

558 posted on 07/12/2007 10:45:21 AM PDT by Texas Jack
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To: cmiller623

Interesting idea. There was a story about Hunt in Rolling Stone Magazine (of all places). If I remember it right, I think he confirmed that he is one of the three tramps in the infamous photo. He says the gunman was a Corsican or Frenchman.


559 posted on 07/12/2007 11:02:32 AM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: 1066AD

‘In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes’ practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds. ‘

Which is why nobody thats looked into this takes Bugliosi seriously on this topic.

Oswald was hardly a ‘marksman’ folks. Far from it.

Then consider the odds of this type of accuracy, against this particular target.

The Warren Commission Report remains a whitewash to me. I don’t know what happened that day, nor do I know who was behind it. But I’ll never buy the ‘lone gunman’ theory.

Because the guy charged with being the ‘lone gunman’ simply didn’t have the skill set required.


560 posted on 07/12/2007 11:07:36 AM PDT by Badeye (You know its a kook site when they ban the word 'kook')
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To: JoeA

There is another book that discloses the name of a foreign national who was part of the three hit teams operating in Dealey Plaza that day. Can anyone explain what motivation Ruby had to kill Oswald? They had been out together socially. Seems to me Ruby was wrapping up some untidy business for whomever wanted Kennedy dead. E. Howard Hunt and Bar McClellan believe Johnson was involved. The very fact that Executive Orders were prepared to change the course of the Viet Nam War and signed on the plane ride back also has never been explained.

With Lady Bird passing, maybe some additional facts will come to light. I don’t Trust the government on this case and many have noted that all the documents are sealed until 2038. If they are so sure of their theory, why seal everything for so long? My conclusion to protect participants.


561 posted on 07/12/2007 11:13:52 AM PDT by cmiller623 (Mayor Antonio Villa....or never mind. Los Angeles is doomed!)
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To: cmiller623
I think Ruby's "motivation" was that he was cleaning up mob business. I think of number of interests were at work here, including use of the Mafia. Ruby had known mob connections, and was allegedly the source for mob payoffs to local police and politicos.

As for Executive orders about Viet Nam, that's a story I haven't heard before.

562 posted on 07/12/2007 1:47:33 PM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: cmiller623

just bookmarking this conversation, I guess that is what “bump” means to get this topic back up on my comments list?


563 posted on 07/12/2007 11:23:46 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: JoeA

Nothing in the assassination adds up; sure, I can respect people making the lone gun nut theory and others that are counter.

I found this story last weekend; it sounds far out, but it is after all; a Dallas Times-Herald photographer who was there when Ruby shot Oswald. He says there was “no blood.” http://theuniversalseduction.com/articles/photographer-who-snapped-infamous-oswald-photo-said-no-blood-at-crime-scene (just went to find the story, I have no idea what this website is about). Everything about the assassination has some odd twist or turn to it. That’s why it is suspicious. I can respect those saying “one gun man” but what if, vs. the Warren Commission; they were trying a man in a court of law with 12 jurors? I can’t buy the magic bullet shot under those circumstances.


564 posted on 07/13/2007 9:02:39 PM PDT by RGPII
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To: RGPII

Now that is one of the more bizarre theories, and one that I’ve never heard. I’m going to have to look at some of those photos to see if I can see any blood. Thanks for the post.


565 posted on 07/14/2007 10:27:57 AM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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