Skip to comments.What's the Rush?
Posted on 07/01/2007 3:27:40 AM PDT by 8mmMauserEdited on 07/02/2007 4:50:59 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
That's the question Bobby Schindler asked in the case involving Jesse Ramirez, the Arizona man whose case paralleled that of Schindler's sister, Terri Schiavo, until Ramirez woke up. The Arizona Republic reports:
...Bobby Schindler of the Florida-based Terri Schindler Shiavo Foundation placed the blame on a medical establishment quick to dismiss patients with brain injuries.Why is Jesse alive? His family sought legal intervention with the help of the Alliance Defense Fund:
Schindler is the brother of Terri Schiavo, a brain-damaged Florida woman who died in 2005 after a decades-long court battle.
"What is the rush?" he asked. "This is not the first time we've heard of cases like this where doctors want to write off the chance of recovery, and the family, when they're told this, will make a decision to end a person's life.
"In the case of Mr. Ramirez, he'd be dead now."
His siblings and parents refused to give him up for dead, and today, Jesse Ramirez is alive and conscious.
Two weeks ago, he was the center of a family battling over of whether he should live or die.
Now, he can hug and kiss, nod his head, answer yes and no questions, give a thumbs-up sign and sit in a chair.
A Miracle for Jesse Ramirez and His Family
Jesse Ramirez Conscious, Moved To Rehab Facility
Accident victim awakens
CHANDLER, Arizona, June 28, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) Written off by doctors as a hopeless vegetable, an Arizona man would not now be on his way to recovery from an accident caused by a marital quarrel if not for his familys unrelenting struggle for his life.
The Arizona Republic reports that on Wednesday, Jesse Ramirez, awoke from his nearly month long persistent vegetative state (PVS) and now can hug and kiss, nod his head, answer yes and no questions, give a thumbs-up sign and sit in a chair.
If not for the past few weeks legal battles that ended Tuesday with a favorable settlement for him and his family, Jesse Ramirez, who depended on feeding tubes for food and water, would certainly have died in circumstances very similar to the tragic 2005 death of Terri Schindler-Schiavo.
It is an episode that some are already suggesting echoes the 2005 case of Terri Schiavo, a woman whose brain injury led to a persistent vegetative state. In her case, a protracted legal battle between her husband and Schiavo's family ended in the removal of her feeding tube and her subsequent death.
But ethicists debate the extent to which this comparison is valid.
Dont expect to find this miraculous story in the pages of the New York Times or featured on CNN, because it would undermine their pro-euthanasia political agenda. In Arizona, a woman had doctors remove food, water, and medicine life support from her husband, Jesse Ramirez, a few days after he entered a coma due to a car rollover accident on May 30. Ramirez, a Gulf War veteran, and his wife had been arguing in the car over a cell phone number of another man that Ramirez found in her cell phone when the rollover happened. Ramirez suffered a broken neck, fractured skull and face, punctured lung and broken ribs. Only 10 days after the accident, his wife instructed doctors to remove all life support from him. His family objected and the Alliance Defense Fund filed an emergency motion with the court on their behalf. Maricopa County Superior court Judge Paul Katz wisely ordered on June 13 that Ramirez be put back on life support and assigned a guardian ad litem as his advocate while the legal arguments were sorted out. Ramirezs wife responded by petitioning the court again asking to remove him from life support.
Here is the thread.
We just had something like this happen in our area. A young lady suffering from diabetes and in need of dialysis was being taken care of at home by her elderly parents...well the process of taking care of her was getting to be too much for the old couple so they decided to not feed or give her water and they stopped dialysis as well. This young lady (early 40’s) has a son and was not wanting to die. Someone in the caregivers loop turned them into the state...but unfortunately she passed away the day after they finally showed up. It made me sick...my husband wanted me to go to the funeral...but I have no sympathy for anyone who could just stand by and watch their own daughter starve and dehydrate to death.
Thanks. It is happening more often than we sometimes realize. That is why we keep watching and keep vigilant. Every once in awhile, we can prevent things like this with some attention.
Good info! bttt!
"We will not be silent. We are your bad conscience. The White Rose will give you no rest."
Why in the world does the medical establishment let an adulterous spouse make the decision whether the other spouse lives or dies? Talk about a conflict of interest...particularly when there is a life insurance payment in the offing.
According to the law -- at least before the medical establishment started slip-sliding all over the place -- the ONLY window to "pull the plug" was the patient's informed choice to refuse treatment. Euthanasia is still illegal. Assisted suicide is still illegal. The patient must make the decision. If the patient is incapacitated, it goes to court and the guardian or relatives may be consulted as to the patient's wishes. (That's the stage where the heirs tell the judge that grandma couldn't wait to die and leave them her money.)
In Terri's case, the Greer Court helped Michael's lawyers fake Terri's wishes. The only testimony allowed -- and it was pathetically weak -- was from Michael, his brother, and his sister-in-law. Nothing from Terri's own family.
It is interesting that, after all the years of claiming that Terri wanted to die, Michael finally got his chance to report (under oath) what she had said about it. Which turned out to be -- nothing at all. All he could come up with was two vague sentences of a sort specifically banned as evidence in other courts.
God rest Terri’s soul, and prayers for Jesse’s full recovery.
If these people believe in God, I say prove it.
Life should be our most cherished of values.
The above post is about Terry.
Thanks for the ping, 8mm. If it wasn’t for FR, these people would be literally swept under the rug. Granted, there are a lot of things happening right now, but if they can do 24/7 coverage on Paris Hilton, they sure can discuss more important issues like Jesse Ramirez, and his condition. Glad to hear he’s doing better :)
In 1999, 10.4% of the severely cognitively impaired residents of the United States were starved and dehydrated to death.
In 2000, 11.0% of the severely cognitively impaired residents of the United States were starved and dehydrated to death.
In 2001, 11.4% of the severely cognitively impaired residents of the United States were starved and dehydrated to death.
I haven't found data yet for other years, but I think it's a fair guess that the killings continue to climb.
This doesn't represent a percentage of patients who died (which would be bad enough). It doesn't mean that 11.4% of the patients who died were starved and dehydrated. It means 11.4% of all the people living in the U.S.A. with severe cognitive impairments were killed this way. And it doesn't include the ones who were killed using other methods, such as denial of antibiotics for simple infections, cessation of kidney dialysis, removal of breathing assistance, etc. There are some very barbaric methods being used.
The standard used for determining severe cognitive impairment for the purpose of this study is a score of 5 or less on the Mini Mental State Examination (MMSE). Patients in a coma or PVS cannot possibly score 1, much less 5. You've probably seen people in the grocery store with a score of 5 or less. So these killings include a wide range of brain damaged people. I wonder how many thousands of people are living with a score of 5 or less. And for every 1,000 people living with a score of 5 or less in the year 2001, 114 of them were starved and dehydrated to death that year.
All I have before me are the percentages. I'd like to see the corresponding numbers. Or would I?
Following is the breakdown by state for 2001. Notice that Rhode Island tops the list, with just over a third of that population exterminated this way. That might have something to do with the fact that RI has appointed the pro-euthanasia group Choice in Dying the official State agency in charge of informing the public about end-of-life choices. They supply forms for living wills and assist the public in filling out those forms. This is what happens when you put the fox in charge of the henhouse.
Believe it or not, Florida and Texas are both below the national average. Every state is on the list. Georgia is at the bottom of the list, exterminating only 1.30% this way. But like I said, this doesn't include people who were exterminated using other methods.
RI - 33.80%
OR - 32.50%
MI - 28.30%
MT - 28.00%
WI - 27.20%
CA - 23.40%
UT - 23.40%
AZ - 20.90%
PA - 17.40%
MN - 17.20%
AK - 17.10%
CT - 15.40%
WY - 14.90%
MD - 14.60%
NM - 14.20%
SD - 14.10%
WA - 13.20%
OH - 12.90%
ID - 12.30%
IA - 12.10%
MO - 11.90%
National Average - 11.4%
VT - 11.20%
HI - 11.10%
DE - 10.80%
ND - 10.80%
MA - 9.90%
IN - 9.70%
ME - 9.20%
NH - 8.70%
NY - 8.50%
NE - 7.70%
CO - 7.20%
AL - 7.10%
TX - 7.10%
IL - 6.70%
WV - 6.70%
KY - 6.60%
SC - 6.50%
TN - 6.30%
FL - 6.20%
NV - 6.20%
AR - 5.70%
NC - 5.20%
KS - 4.80%
NJ - 4.80%
OK - 4.10%
LA - 3.70%
VA - 3.60%
DC - 3.10%
MS - 3.00%
GA - 1.30%
Facts On Dying ~ This study was funded by The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, who adamantly opposes the rights of vulnerable people to continue living. So if any trolls show up, complaining that the data is skewed in favor of life, check the facts and get back to me.
Great new Terri Daily thread!
I wonder when the visitors will find it. There have been a few around while you were gone reposting Mikey’s talking points.
Before posting to this, or any thread, FReepers should read and understand Statement by the founder of Free Republic.
Hell, we've had a hard enough time lately getting the trolls to understand that Free Republic is for CONSERVATIVES!
What’s the Rush? Her husband wanted to get married to his fiance and did not have time to wait for her to die so he helped her out. He is scum but unfortunately she is not coming back to life.
Jesse Ramirez (who this article is about) is much more fortunate. Many are not. See post 19. It’s wonderful to have a place to gather so we can help people like Terri Schiavo, Jesse Ramirez, Ora Mae Maguirk, and the many others who are targeted for death for the “crime” of being cognitively disabled.
The site scared me because Pennsylvania kills folks like this at a high rate...at least higher than the national average. I will have to be very vigilant when or if my parents, siblings, wife, kids etc are ever in this position.
I suspect that the majority of the people starved and dehydrated to death have family members that just don’t realize what’s going on. The medical staff uses euphemisms to fool the less informed into believing they’re doing their loved ones a favor. I hope people are becoming more informed about this barbaric practice. I know my family is better informed.
Personal experiences in recent years with such situations occurred both in Rhode Island and Oregon. Looks like they are the top two killer states. At least Maine is down the list. Of course we are pretty well armed, so if they come for me...
"Right now he is sleeping comfortably."
Disappointed but not discouraged, Teresea Ramirez, the mother of Jesse Ramirez talked with 12 News after her son was transfered from hospice to a health care facility in Mesa.
It's a milepost of sorts for Jessie. A small step in what promises to be a long road toward recovery. While Teresa sees the new surroundings as a step up for her son, it is not where she would like him to be. Teresa says, "Jesse belongs where there's 24 hour nursing, 24 hour doctor care and where he has speech therapy, physical therapy, and they check his vision."
Last month Jesse suffered severe brain injuries when the SUV he was driving crashed. Both Ramirez and his wife Rebecca were ejected from the car. He was alive but unresponsive in the hospital when his wife decided to move him to a hospice facility. After ten days, she made the decision to pull his feeding tube.
That triggered a court battle between family members who wanted to keep Jesse on the feeding tube and his wife who thought it was time to let go. A judge ordered the feeding tube reinserted. Days later Ramirez began showing signs of life. Recognizing voices. Doctors called it a miracle.
Since then Teresa Ramirez says her son continues to show signs of improvement. Ramirez says, "He's gotten to be pretty strong on his hands because he'll pull himself up on the rail to a sitting position almost."
BykrBayb, on your post #29 just above, I was stunned at watching the YouTube clip on euthanasia. They did an amazing job of pulling together the truths. I strongly recommend viewing it to all. Thanks for the find.
The recent brush with death for Jesse Ramirez of Chandler, and last years attempt by Congress to intervene on behalf of Terry Schiavo, grabbed the publics attention because such rare legal dramas involve the highest possible stakes life and the quality of that life.
While usually taking place in private, intense and emotional clashes between family members who disagree strongly on the best course for treatment occur frequently in hospital rooms and hospice centers across the country. Many loved ones fear that making the wrong choice will lead to the unusual nightmare that Ramirez faced before a court stepped in condemned to die by withholding food and water when it turns out he still has a good chance of survival and recovery.
Far more often, the inevitable outcome is simply delayed for weeks or months (or in Schiavos case for years), as families and loved ones argue with each other and wrestle with their own consciences about whether to hold out or to let go. In a variety of situations, the question isnt a clear let her live or die? Instead the issue can be a series of trade-offs involving different forms of treatment: Should a limb be amputated? How much risk is acceptable in emergency surgery? What should be done about unexpected complications?
The increasing use of ultrasound exams at crisis pregnancy centers brings criticism from clinics that provide abortion. They see its use as manipulating pregnant women. Eve Espey, obstetrician/gynecologist at University of New Mexico Health Sciences Center, said CPCs are looking at legislation to force women to view an ultrasound before having an abortion.
"I think it's very much a coercive measure," said Espey, "because I think it gets back to your basic right to have the information you want to have."
Here is a picture of Scott in more recent times...
Check out the new pictures in the Photo Gallery of this man who would have been killed by the wishes of his spouse.
Great job. Everybody should see this video and reflect on it. Are we decent compassionate people, or do we kill the weak and helpless so we don’t have to bother with them?
That’s the difference between Jesse’s family and Terri’s hino. As in everything, follow the money.
Meant to add - besided following the money, one should look at how has the most to gain in them NOT waking up.
Jesse Ramirez unintentionally became the center of significant controversy after a car accident left him in a "minimally conscious" state. Ten days into his recovery his wife decided to withdraw what I consider to be basic care by removing his feeding tube. Jesse was also transferred to a hospice. In response, his family took legal action and, with the assistance of the Alliance Defense Fund, were successful in restoring basic care. In addition, the presiding judge appointed Judith Morse as Jesse's guardian ad litem with the agreement of the parties Late last week, an attorney knowledgeable about the case provided an insightful view of Jesse's situation in this article, clearing up a number of misimpressions and mistakes made in the reporting of the case. For instance, a gag order was never put in place and, from a legal perspective, Jesse's wife never had the authority to direct medical personnel to remove his feeding tube. In addition, reports of Jesse waking up (more here) appear to have been somewhat inaccurate: Then Ms. Morse reported that she had already located a neurologist who would evaluate Jesse's condition. In fact, after a preliminary examination over the weekend, he had concluded that Jesse was conscious and responsive. Ms. Morse summarized the doctor's findings by saying that Jesse is aware of who he is, aware of who his family is, and is responding to oral commands. As a result, she noted that Jesse will soon be transferred to another facility for rehabilitation, therapy, and further medical care. Those following the case should read the entire article (click here).
On Tuesday, June 26, 2007, the parties gathered for another hearing. After the parties met behind closed doors for about an hour, Ms. Morse presented her report in court. She noted that the parties had agreed (1) that she would select a neurologist to evaluate Jesse's current condition, (2) that she would select a third party to serve as Jesse's guardian, (3) that they would dismiss Scottsdale Healthcare and Hospice of the Valley from the case, and (4) that all further communications with hospice or hospital employees would be through counsel. Although it does not appear that Jesse suddenly "woke up", the fact that he was in a conscious and responsive condition appears to validate the prior assertions by his family and impugn the decisions and actions by others who stopped feeding him.
Jesse Ramirez unintentionally became the center of significant controversy after a car accident left him in a "minimally conscious" state. Ten days into his recovery his wife decided to withdraw what I consider to be basic care by removing his feeding tube. Jesse was also transferred to a hospice.
In response, his family took legal action and, with the assistance of the Alliance Defense Fund, were successful in restoring basic care. In addition, the presiding judge appointed Judith Morse as Jesse's guardian ad litem with the agreement of the parties
Late last week, an attorney knowledgeable about the case provided an insightful view of Jesse's situation in this article, clearing up a number of misimpressions and mistakes made in the reporting of the case. For instance, a gag order was never put in place and, from a legal perspective, Jesse's wife never had the authority to direct medical personnel to remove his feeding tube. In addition, reports of Jesse waking up (more here) appear to have been somewhat inaccurate:
Then Ms. Morse reported that she had already located a neurologist who would evaluate Jesse's condition. In fact, after a preliminary examination over the weekend, he had concluded that Jesse was conscious and responsive. Ms. Morse summarized the doctor's findings by saying that Jesse is aware of who he is, aware of who his family is, and is responding to oral commands. As a result, she noted that Jesse will soon be transferred to another facility for rehabilitation, therapy, and further medical care.
Those following the case should read the entire article (click here).
Advance directives promise patients a say in their future care but actually have had little effect. Many experts blame problems with completion and implementation, but the advance directive concept itself may be fundamentally flawed. Advance directives simply presuppose more control over future care than is realistic. Medical crises cannot be predicted in detail, making most prior instructions difficult to adapt, irrelevant, or even misleading. Furthermore, many proxies either do not know patients' wishes or do not pursue those wishes effectively. Thus, unexpected problems arise often to defeat advance directives, as the case in this paper illustrates. Because advance directives offer only limited benefit, advance care planning should emphasize not the completion of directives but the emotional preparation of patients and families for future crises. The existentialist Albert Camus might suggest that physicians should warn patients and families that momentous, unforeseeable decisions lie ahead. Then, when the crisis hits, physicians should provide guidance; should help make decisions despite the inevitable uncertainties; should share responsibility for those decisions; and, above all, should courageously see patients and families through the fearsome experience of dying.
Flawed in concept and not just use, advance directives provide little control over future care (6, 7, 64). The last-minute objections to comfort care by Mr. Jones's daughter illustrate the many unexpected problems that can defeat advance directives. Thus, I urge deemphasizing advance directives while searching for better approaches to advance care planning. Camus's ideas suggest one approach that stresses honest communication (33, 57, 75); preparation of patients and families for death's harsh and unpredictable reality (7, 66); mutual support; nonformulaic, individualized care; and courageous decision making despite uncertainties. At the end of Camus' The Plague, the main charactera physician named Rieuxreflects on his role throughout the plague epidemic. He realizes that, along with providing care that had to be given "by all who strive ... to be healers," he bore witness to patients' suffering (76). Physicians surely have the duty to fight disease in most circumstances, but physicians always have the still greater duty to see patients and survivors through their suffering and thereby to bear witness to it. Perhaps that greater duty lifts medicine from a mere occupation to a true profession.
Hard to watch, and hard not to keep watching, the HBO documentary "Coma" is not actually about coma but about what comes after. (The more accurate "Traumatic Brain Injury" isn't quite as arresting a title.) A state of profound unconsciousness from which a person cannot wake, a coma provides no information; whatever there is to say about it, there is nothing there to see. It is a dark pool. When the eyes open, the coma ends and the questions begin.
The idea here is simple. Director Liz Garbus (the Oscar-nominated, Emmy-winning "The Farm: Angola, USA") follows four patients at the Center for Head Injuries at the JFK Medical Center in Edison, N.J., over the course of a year, during which time two improve and two do not. When we meet them, all have already emerged into either a vegetative state (awake but unaware) or a state of minimal consciousness (in which a patient fitfully exhibits signs of deliberate response). All are young or relatively young; two fell from great heights, two were injured in car accidents.
Garbus gives a little social-historical context through a medley of clips touching on some of the best-known cases, including Karen Ann Quinlan, Sunny von Bülow, Terry Schiavo and Terry Wallis, who in 2004 began to speak after 19 years in a minimally conscious state. (The subject stays in the news: In March, a Colorado woman awoke from six years in a vegetative state, only to slip away again after three days.
While the camera remains dispassionate, the filmmakers clearly have an agenda. Spurred by the Terri Schiavo media spectacle in Florida, they set out to show that it's difficult and sometimes impossible to determine what's going on in the brain, even when a patient seems conscious. One of those being treated here, for example, refuses to cooperate with therapists. Further testing shows that he can read written words but can no longer hear.
Experts say President Bush long ago earned the shameful silk on matters of Iraq, huge tax cuts for the wealthy after 9/11, and the environment, while others believe it was the Terri Schiavo affair that took him over the top and iced the honor. The White House cited scheduling conflicts for the delay in bestowing the family prize, and noted it was wonderful that the Russian -- a man whose very soul the president says he has seen -- could participate.
The Terry Schiavo case brings the fundamentalist's tactics into sharp focus. Congress was called into emergency session over a weekend by DeLay and Frist. Frist, an alleged M.D., even made a diagnosis from the floor of the Senate without bothering to do even the most rudimentary physical examination of the patient. Bush received the legislation he wanted so that he could sign it at warp speed. Fortunately, the courts stepped in to stop the nonsense. How long we can rely on that is problematic as Bush has had many appointments to the federal bench, both confirmed and recess.
How much longer will our sacred tradition of absolute religious freedom continue? Does anyone out there really care?
Boston, MA (LifeNews.com) -- A Massachusetts Institute of Technology stem cell researcher who has been denied tenure has no been locked out of his laboratory. Dr. James L. Sherley, a black associate professor of biological engineering who opposes embryonic stem cell research and human cloning, has said he is a victim of racism.
Sherley has been an outspoken advocate against human cloning -- including the kind of therapeutic cloning his colleagues and other scientists want to use to create and destroy human embryos for their stem cells.
London, England (LifeNews.com) -- A teenager in the UK is facing threats from her school for wearing a t-shirt that has a message opposing abortion. Sarah Scott, a 16 year-old who gave birth just four months ago, says the staff at Banff Academy complained when she wore a shirt with the message "Abortion is Murder printed on it.
Scott attends the Aberdeenshire, Scotland school and wore the shirt on a day when students are permitted to wear casual clothes instead of their normal uniforms.
Ever since Roe v. Wade, over 30 years ago, Planned Parenthood has rallied its forces around the banner of CHOICE. The ultimate insult, by extension, has been anti-choice. If you are an enemy of Planned Parenthood, the banner is hoisted high in the sky and voices rise in shrill chants, "Anti-choice, anti-choice, anti-choice!"
Thus, it is a momentous occasion when Planned Parenthood has adopted the tactics of the enemy. Planned Parenthood is ANTI-CHOICE! Yes, it is. Really!
Also for the record, nobody really knows what consciousness is and nobody can tell for certain, from the outside, what's going on inside the brain. If there are no signals or responses, they say, well, this patient isn't conscious. But they don't know in any scientific way.
I think whatever our physical condition, God has a channel to communicate with us.
The media made THEIR diagnoses of Terri without examinations. Also without knowing the first thing about medicine.
Ah, but they are the media so they don’t have to know anything about medicine or even reporting. They give themselves a pass.