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How do we assess the cost of war?
The Leaf Chronicle | July 8, 2007 | Chantal Escoto

Posted on 07/08/2007 5:33:19 AM PDT by Kaslin

To read the editorial which can not be posted due to copyrights complains

Go here


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: defense; propaganda; taquiyya

1 posted on 07/08/2007 5:33:21 AM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

Only one side of the ledger sheet was discussed...what are the savings in freeing a land and making it’s people a dependable ally in the region.

There is always discussions of the cost but rarely the reward...It’s like insurance everyone complains of the cost until they need a new roof..LOL


2 posted on 07/08/2007 5:47:19 AM PDT by conservativehusker (GO BIG RED!!!!)
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To: Kaslin
What was the cost of 09-11? What would be the cost of following the Leftist dogma of simply ignoring the problem presented to the Free world by Islamic Fundamentalism? What is the cost of trying ignoring the problem in the vain hope it will simply go away?
3 posted on 07/08/2007 6:01:44 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (If you will try being smarter, I will try being nicer.)
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To: MNJohnnie

The cost of ignoring the problem in hope it would go away would be enourmous. Terrorism did not start with the war in Iraq as the left likes to make us believe


4 posted on 07/08/2007 6:11:17 AM PDT by Kaslin (Fred Thompson for President 2008)
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To: Kaslin

www.theleafchronicle.com ...nice ;)


5 posted on 07/08/2007 6:14:31 AM PDT by kinoxi
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To: conservativehusker

Youy have to assess what the cost of losing is.


6 posted on 07/08/2007 6:20:09 AM PDT by TennTuxedo
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To: TennTuxedo

Why is it we obsess on the $100b we are spending on war and pay no attention to the other $2T 900B the government is spending this year?


7 posted on 07/08/2007 6:27:04 AM PDT by ClaireSolt (Have you have gotten mixed up in a mish-masher?)
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To: Kaslin
The total cost of World War II, according to CRS records, was $4.8 trillion and lasting six years from 1939 to 1945. More than 400,000 U.S. troops were killed and 670,000 wounded.

This, too, was a high price to pay for a war that was not — except for the attack on Pearl Harbor — on American soil.

Does he really beleive that Pearl Harbor was the only act of war against the United States during World War 2?

Japanese invaded islands off of Alaska
Japanese invaded Philippines
Germans attacked US merchant ships in the Atlantic


I am sure there are numerous other examples. One very big example includes Germany declaring war on the United States within days of the Pearl Harbor attack. It ended our isolationist policies.

Islamic terrorists have declared war on the United States. It should not a matter of who is pro-war or anti-war in the United States. Truth be told, nobody wants to be fighting this war, but we have no choice. Either we fight and win the war against the islamic terrorist or we lose. We have no "38th parellel" option or the ability to do a Vietnam-style withdrawl in which only neighboring countries would greatly suffer. We cannot sign a peace treaty because our enemy is stateless.

This war is global, not regional and we must fight it to win. Our enemy's goals are very simple. They want an islamic empire stretching the planet. It's the same type of fanatical thinking that motivated Hitler.

8 posted on 07/08/2007 6:27:35 AM PDT by Tai_Chung
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To: Kaslin; 1stbn27; 2111USMC; 2nd Bn, 11th Mar; 68 grunt; A.A. Cunningham; ASOC; AirForceBrat23; ...
What is the cost of prosecuting the United States Marine Corps?
9 posted on 07/08/2007 7:05:54 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, NIECE)
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To: freema

Say it again.


10 posted on 07/08/2007 7:10:43 AM PDT by lilycicero
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To: freema; lilycicero

I’ll say it again, lily. What have we spent in investigating and prosecuting the US Marines in Hamdania, Haditha, now Fallujah? We, the people, are paying for these “fishing expiditions”. We need an accounting.


11 posted on 07/08/2007 7:21:15 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: Girlene; lilycicero; jazusamo
WHAT IS THE COST OF PROSECUTING THE UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS?

We need to also ask the price of the intangibles as well as the tangibles.

While the cost of the tangibles must be obscene, it's nothing when compared to the larger price this country will pay. The intangibles are much more than people seem to realize. I guarantee the left knows.


12 posted on 07/08/2007 8:41:16 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, NIECE)
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To: Tai_Chung

We spent another $5 trillion or so on strategic nuclear weapons during the Cold War. Fortunately, we never had to use them and ultimately the Soviet Union collapsed, but when it did, hundreds of millions were freed from the yoke of communism. Our defense expenditures during WWII and the Cold War, measured as a fraction of GDP, were vastly higher than the relatively piddling sums being spent in the Middle East. This is a very “affordable” war even if it lasted 50 years, and manifestly would be worth the cost if it brought to the Middle East the same level of stability, peace and democracy enjoyed by Europe during the past 2 decades.


13 posted on 07/08/2007 8:45:20 AM PDT by DrC
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To: Kaslin

It would be a lot less if the liberals would get on the American side of this war.


14 posted on 07/08/2007 8:56:27 AM PDT by 1035rep
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To: 1035rep
It would be a lot less if the liberals would get on the American side of this war.

Exactly, and a lot less lives would be lost. The liberals are encouraging the terrorists

15 posted on 07/08/2007 9:36:27 AM PDT by Kaslin (Fred Thompson for President 2008)
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To: conservativehusker
what are the savings in freeing a land and making it’s people a dependable ally in the region

Yeah, we tried that with France. You think its going to work with a bunch of muslim devil worshippers? lol

16 posted on 07/08/2007 9:50:56 AM PDT by rageaholic
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To: All; Tai_Chung; Kaslin; conservativehusker; MNJohnnie; kinoxi; TennTuxedo; ClaireSolt; ...

.

NEVER FORGET

.

After Sen. TED KENNEDY fooled a post-WATERGATE Democrat Congress into cutting off all our funding for the then Free South Vietnamese to fight for their own Freedom with,

...just as the Communist Soviet Union gave $6 Billion in Tanks and Artillery to the invading North Vietnamese Communists for their planned ‘Final Solution’ in the South,

...sadly came:

.

Pictures of a vietnamese Re-Education (SLAVE LABOR) Camp

http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1308949/posts

http://www.JourneyFromTheFall.com

.

What price for the still Free (that’s US) to pay now, I wonder,
...in a new time of war
...in a new century
...with our own Freedom
...directly at stake
...right here at home..?

News of 12 Million suddenly missing Iraqi purple voting fingers appearing on our TV Screens, just for starters..?

.

.

The Vietnamese-American Community knows full well the price once Free people pay when their Freedom is lost. They just don’t want it to happen here, for they know they would have nowhere else to go this time around..!!!

When the President of now Communist Vietnam came to visit a President of a Free USA, on his way back home he stopped off in Orange County CA on “business.” A place he had no business being in at all.

So Orange County CA’s Free Vietnamese-American Community from Little Saigon had something very important to say to him there:

.

‘Vietnam’s President Protested in Orange County’

(FoX 11 TV News-Los Angeles VIDEO Report)

http://www.myfoxla.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=C66ADA5D71E2572FC215BA31AB5D6C4C?contentId=3574616&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

.

‘Making their voices heard’

(Orange County Register News Repport - See ‘MORE PHOTOS’ & ‘VIDEO’)

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1741241.php

.

.

Signed:..”ALOHA RONNIE” Guyer
Vietnam Veteran & In-person Witness

http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_set1.htm

http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_collection.htm

.

NEVER FORGET

.


17 posted on 07/08/2007 10:13:49 AM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: ALOHA RONNIE; Kaslin; Valin; SandRat

Just got this emailed to me. Thought you all might enjoy it.

Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

Charles Grennel and his comrades, veterans of the Global War On Terror wrote this letter. Grennel is an Army Reservist who spent two years in Iraq and was a principal in putting together the first Iraq elections in January 2005. They wrote it to Jill Edwards, student at the University of Washington, who did not want to honor Medal of Honor winner USMC Colonel Greg Boyington. Ms. Edwards, other students, and faculty do not think those who serve in the U.S. armed services are good role models.

***

To: Jill Edwards, Student, University of Washington

Subject: Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

Miss Edwards,

I read of your student activity regarding the proposed memorial to Colonel Greg Boyington, USMC and a Medal of Honor winner. I suspect you will receive many angry e-mail from conservative people like me. You may be too young to appreciate fully the sacrifices of generations of servicemen and service women on whose shoulders you and your fellow students stand. I forgive you for the untutored ways of youth and your naiveté. It may be that you are simply a sheep. There’s no dishonor in being a sheep, as long as you know and accept what you are.

William J. Bennett, in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy on November 24, 1997 said, “Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures that can only hurt one another by accident. We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people, not capable of hurting each other except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

Then there are the wolves that feed on the sheep without mercy. Do you believe there are wolves out there that will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

Then there are sheepdogs and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive psychopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the uncharted path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

We know that the sheep live in denial, which is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kid’s schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep’s only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard. So they choose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land.

They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go baa until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them.

This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be.

Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter. He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.

After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said “Thank God I wasn’t on one of those planes.” The sheepdogs, the warriors, said “Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference.” You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that would destroy 98 percent of the population.

Research was conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said
they specifically targeted victims by body language: Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I’m proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When they learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd and the other passengers confronted the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents - from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

Edmund Burke said “There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men.” Here is the point I want to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They don’t have a choice.

But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you.

If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior’s path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

This business of being a sheep or a sheepdog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of
us live somewhere in between.

Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. Its OK to be a sheep, but do not kick the sheepdog. Indeed, the sheepdog may just run a little harder, strive to protect a little better and be fully prepared to pay an ultimate price in battle and spirit with the sheep moving from “baa” to
“thanks”.

We do not call for gifts or freedoms beyond our lot. We just need a small pat on the head, a smile and a thank you to fill the emotional tank that is drained protecting the sheep. And, when our number is called by The Almighty and day retreats into night, a small prayer before the heavens just may be in order to say thanks for letting you continue to be a sheep. And be grateful for the millions of American sheepdogs who permit you the freedom to express even bad ideas.


18 posted on 07/08/2007 10:24:13 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Ignorance can be cured by education, stupidity is a terminal condition)
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To: All; MNJohnnie

.

Three more Sheepdog examples to follow in time of war:

.

BRUCE CRANDALL = Medal of Honor

http://www.ArmchairGeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48215

.

RICK RESCORLA = 9/11 Lifesaver

http://www.ArmchairGeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24361

.

HAL G. MOORE = An American Warrior

http://www.ArmchairGeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14752

.


19 posted on 07/08/2007 11:01:54 AM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: MNJohnnie

That was truly beautiful! I’m betting it goes right over her moonbatty little head.

Cindie


20 posted on 07/08/2007 11:09:44 AM PDT by gardencatz (Your son might be an honor student, but mine's a US Marine...it can't always be someone else's son!)
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To: ALOHA RONNIE

Thanks Ronnie. Good stuff all three.


21 posted on 07/08/2007 11:11:40 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Ignorance can be cured by education, stupidity is a terminal condition)
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To: MNJohnnie

Bump


22 posted on 07/08/2007 1:18:27 PM PDT by Kaslin (Fred Thompson for President 2008)
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To: MNJohnnie
Read it at the time it was first made public and it is typically polite for a well trained Marine General. Unfortunately the young lady is not going to be able to grasp the significance of the factual allegory. She has been too well indoctrinated by the kumbaya crowd of poltroons in academia and the political PROGRESSIVE (SOCIALIST) Democratic Party/OLD MEDIA/LEFT.
23 posted on 07/08/2007 1:20:54 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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To: Jen's Mom; Tut

Ping


24 posted on 07/08/2007 1:21:10 PM PDT by Kaslin (Fred Thompson for President 2008)
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To: SandRat
Unfortunately the young lady is not going to be able to grasp the significance of the factual allegory. She has been too well indoctrinated by the kumbaya crowd of poltroons in academia and the political PROGRESSIVE (SOCIALIST) Democratic Party/OLD MEDIA/LEFT.

I doubt many on the left are getting it. Why do you think the terrorist organizations like al Qaeda and Hezbollah were cheering for the dems to win the 2006 election? It wasn't because they liked them better. It was because they know when the dems get their power back and keep it, they won't do a thing when the terrorists attack our country again. And the left think when they are in charge the terrorists won't attack again.

They fail to realize it does not matter to the terrorist if we are republicans, libertarians, or democrats. Or if we are black, or white or yellow. Or if we a Catholics, or Protestants or Atheists. They hate us all

25 posted on 07/08/2007 1:32:51 PM PDT by Kaslin (Fred Thompson for President 2008)
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To: Kaslin
[.. How do we assess the cost of war? ..]

the COST??.. The WAR took our eyes off the Mexican Border so that 10 to 20 million insurgents invaded and many of them are currently VOTING DEMOCRAT in a massive vote fraud..

And the perpetrator of the war(s) is lobbying heavily and with the full power of the White House toward amnesty of 20 million proto democrats to ensure the republican party remain the MINORITY..

The cost is huge..

26 posted on 07/08/2007 1:42:10 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe

I would appreciate it if you would not try to hijack my thread and make it into an amnesty issue. It has has nothing to with immigration


27 posted on 07/08/2007 2:09:02 PM PDT by Kaslin (Fred Thompson for President 2008)
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To: Kaslin
Amnesty has nothing to do with immigration??..
Welcome to earth which planet are you from?...
28 posted on 07/08/2007 3:45:29 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Kaslin

Thanks again. Your articles are always tops.


29 posted on 07/08/2007 4:21:51 PM PDT by Stars&StripesNE (Liberals are the enemy within)
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To: MNJohnnie

Bump and bookmark.

I wonder if Charles Grennel ever got a reply.

There are people who seem to really REALLY understand that there are bad people out there that (for any number of reasons, or no particular reason) will kill you.

The radical loser (Long Read)
Der Spiegel ^ | 1/12/05 | Hans Magnus Enzensberger
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1694568/posts


30 posted on 07/08/2007 7:21:20 PM PDT by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: conservativehusker

The Pentagon’s New Map: War and Peace in the Twenty-first Century (Paperback)
by Thomas P.M. Barnett

http://www.amazon.com/Pentagons-New-Map-Twenty-first-Century/dp/B000BPG24M/ref=pd_sim_b_1/102-5703182-8060921

From Booklist
It has been generally recognized that the end of the cold war and the emerging threat of international terrorism presented new challenges in planning American diplomatic and military strategy. What has often been lacking is a coherent, integrated vision that assesses the new threats to American interests and provides a comprehensive plan for coping with them. Barnett, a senior strategic researcher and professor at the U.S. Naval War College, presents his operating theory, which sees the principal threat to American security arising from dysfunctional or so-called failed states, which provide fertile ground for the recruitment and sustenance of terrorists. On the other hand, as such past adversaries as Russia and China are integrated into global economic and political systems, they are less threatening. To counter these threats, Barnett suggests some bold, even revolutionary, changes in our military structure and in the dispersion and utilization of our forces. Of course, both his analyses and remedies are open to debate, but Barnett’s compelling assertions are worthy of strong consideration and are sure to provoke controversy.

__________________________________________

Blueprint for Action: A Future Worth Creating (Hardcover)
by Thomas P.M. Barnett (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399153128/immaculate-books/103-1891773-8488611


31 posted on 07/08/2007 7:33:39 PM PDT by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: ALOHA RONNIE

Thanks for the ping!


32 posted on 07/08/2007 9:05:07 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: conservativehusker; ALOHA RONNIE; Valin; Paperdoll; pissant; Ultra Sonic 007; ...

“For my part, I will not take any part in composing difficulties that ought not to be composed, and a difficulty between an enslaved people and its autocratic rulers ought not to be composed. We in America have stood from the day of our birth for the emancipation of people throughout the World who are living unwillingly under governments which were not of their own choice...so long as wrongs like that exist in the world, you cannot bring permanent peace to the world. I go further than that. So long as wrongs of that sort exist, you ought not to bring permanent peace to the world because those wrongs ought to be righted, and enslaved peoples ought to be free to right them”.

- President Woodrow Wilson, August 31, 1959


33 posted on 07/08/2007 9:12:50 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Calpernia

Woodrow Wilson was alive in 1959? I’ve heard that he is the one who got us into a bit of trouble along around 1913. Not one of our better presidents.


34 posted on 07/08/2007 9:17:50 PM PDT by Paperdoll ( Vote for Duncan Hunter in the Primaries for America's sake!)
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To: Paperdoll

I didn’t do a good job copying the foot note. Sorry, too much sun today.

That is Woodrow Wilson’s words which were reprinted in Uncompromising Idealisms printed in U.S. News and World Report in August of 1959.

Still, a very appropriate quote for the thread.


35 posted on 07/08/2007 9:22:27 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Calpernia; freema; mdittmar; Impeach98; RedRover

GREAT QUOTES about War and Peace and America to SUPPORT THE TROOPS
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1490566/posts


36 posted on 07/08/2007 9:27:10 PM PDT by The Spirit Of Allegiance (Public Employees: Honor Your Oaths! Defend the Constitution from Enemies--Foreign and Domestic!)
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To: hosepipe

No the article does have nothig to do with immigration or amnesty. There are hundreds of immigration and amnesty threads on FR. Post on them, but not on this unless you want to stick to the subject


37 posted on 07/09/2007 3:53:56 AM PDT by Kaslin (Fred Thompson for President 2008)
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To: Kaslin
nothig=nothing

I just got up

38 posted on 07/09/2007 3:56:16 AM PDT by Kaslin (Fred Thompson for President 2008)
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