Knights of Columbus Ping...
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Posted on 07/10/2007 5:36:33 AM PDT by markomalley
Hey, I’m sure this cuts both ways and it all balances out. For every Knight of Columbus who votes for abortion and/or same-sex “marriage”, there’s probably a legislator who belongs to the ACLU, NARAL, or GLAAD and votes conservative on those issues.
Yes, I’m being sarcastic. The thing is, no self-respecting conservative would stoop so low as to even pretend to agree with an abomination like NARAL to win an election. But the Knights are a wholesome, family organization, so plenty of politicians pay lip service, or even join, the group. It looks good on their resume when courting the votes of normal people.
Conservatives would feel they were crawling into the sleaziest gutter in town to join GLAAD, even as a pretence. We couldn’t live with ourself being so hypocritical. But to a “liberal” such double dealing is just a typical day’s work. It’s why politicians often turn out to be more “liberal” than expected, but never the opposite.
Here’s something from the latest Crisis Magazine about Rick Santorum discussing life (when it starts) with Barbara Boxer, an (automatically) excommunicated Catholic...
“Santorum is the one guy who is willing to pull the trigger. Other people talk about it, but he does it.” The senator projected the power of this new pro-life offensive in a 1999 Senate debate on partial-birth abortion. There he dueled with Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-California), creating a dramatic moment of intense political theater:
Santorum: What we are talking about here with partial birth, as the senator from California knows, is a baby is in the process of being born—
Boxer: “The process of being born.” This is why this conversation makes no sense, because to me it is obvious when a baby is born. To you it isn’t obvious.
Santorum: Maybe you can make it obvious to me. So what you are suggesting is if the baby’s foot is still inside of the mother, that baby can then still be killed.
Boxer: No, I am not suggesting that in any way!
Santorum: I am asking.
Boxer: I am absolutely not suggesting that. You asked me a question, in essence, when the baby is born.
Santorum: I am asking you again. Can you answer that?
Boxer: I will answer the question when the baby is born. The baby is born when the baby is outside the mother’s body. The baby is born.
Santorum: . . . But, again, what you are suggesting is if the baby’s toe is inside the mother, you can, in fact, kill that baby.
Boxer: Absolutely not.
Santorum: OK. So if the baby’s toe is in, you can’t kill the baby. How about if the baby’s foot is in?
Boxer: You are the one who is making these statements.
Santorum: We are trying to draw a line here.
Boxer: I am not answering these questions! I am not answering these questions.
The higher the Catholic population of a state, the higher the number of offices filled with Democrats.
Yes, it would be unreasonable to expect the Knights to expel pro abortion/homosexual advocates. It would offend too many Bishops, apparently.
Uhh...Barbara Boxer is not a Catholic.
“As for me, I think it’s about time the Knights change their by-laws for those knights who choose to enter public life!”
Sorry to disagree. Here’s the essential quote:
“’We as laymen do not presume to decide whether other laymen are Catholics or not,’ he said.”
As a past and current Grand Knight of my Council, I don’t have any interest in being the arbiter of the Catholicity of individual Catholic men in my Council.
It's an untenable situation for a layperson with absolutely no special competence in dealing with this issue.
sitetest
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You are right. She is Jewish...
It's an untenable situation for a layperson with absolutely no special competence in dealing with this issue.
That's an excellent point. The only person who is really in any position to judge the "Catholicity" of a person, besides God Himself, is a member of the clergy such as a priest or bishop.
It absolutely should not be the job of a member of a local council, be it the GK, DGK, etc., to expel someone from the organization for not being a true Catholic.
“Round up the usual suspects.”
Excuse me, but there are serious consequences for those who bring shame or scandal upon The Order....and indeed by PUBLICLY flying in the face of the teachings of our Church and Our Holy Father they have done that.
But what he says is still true. A person who calls himself Catholic assumes certain obligations, just as one who gets married assume certain obligations.
All men have fall short, but they are obligated to strive toward the goal nonetheless. These pols have done something much like that of the mayor of Los Angeles. Their action a slap in the face to the leaders of the Knights.
Will the Knights have the gumption to act accordingly?
As for the KofC, as a private organization, they should have the right to remove members who don’t fit into their organizations focus. My question was regarding the statement that anyone who goes against The Church by not denouncing abortion, gay marriage or birth control, not being a Catholic anymore. If that is the litmus test, not going against ANY of the Church’s position on those issues, then there are many more Catholics to be censured or excommunicated yet.
As for the KofC, as a private organization, they should have the right to remove members who don’t fit into their organizations focus. My question was regarding the statement that anyone who goes against The Church by not denouncing abortion, gay marriage or birth control, not being a Catholic anymore. If that is the litmus test, not going against ANY of the Church’s position on those issues, then there are many more Catholics to be censured or excommunicated yet.
And that's why I suggested in the initial post that the by-laws of the organization need to be changed.
You are NOT determining the Catholicity of anybody. That is a matter of Canon Law, of which neither of you are qualified to speak (unless you are a canon lawyer).
However, I have attempted in times past, and suggest again, that it would be appropriate to identify, fraternally reprove, attempt to fraternally correct in a spirit of charity and unity, and ultimately have a internal judicial process to suspend the membership of individuals who are in public life, make their membership in the Knights of Columbus a matter of public record, and then turn around and take public positions that are contrary to the clear and unambiguous teachings of the Church. (i.e., the five non-negotiables).
It is not a matter of judging the Catholicity of the member (thus the action would be a suspension, not a revocation, of membership). It would be a matter of bringing public scandal upon the organization and the membership. And calling a halt to that scandal.
And, by the way, this would not only apply to politicians, but to anybody who was a knight and was in public life.
Right. Since the Knights require members to be Catholic, they must hold members to that standard.
What about someone whose behavior is very much at odds with what is expected of a knight?
Abortion and gay rights are issue of great moment. Adultery is usually a small, tawry affair which is the concern of only a small circle. In other words, a private affair. But it can become a public affair. like the affair between the mayor of Los Angeles and the TV celebrity. I must say that by not speaking out against public sinners like the Senator from Massachusetts the bishops have not done their duty to those whose sins don’t make the headlines. IMHO, so many bishops grew up in Democratic families that they don’t want to face the fact that Democrats will listen to them only when it serves the purposes of the Democratic Party. Probably at least some of these appeasers know that the Dims think of the Church as “the enemy.” They think that by supporting Democratic causes they can keep the enemy off their backs. At the same time, they don’t trust the Republican Party and for good reason.
“It is up to the diocese or the Church hierarchy to decide whether these lawmakers are no longer Catholic, Korten told LifeSiteNews.com. “We as laymen do not presume to decide whether other laymen are Catholics or not,” he said.”
True, but they should be able to decide who are Knights and who are not, and should be allowed to kick out those that violate the group’s principles.
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