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Did the Founding Fathers Really Get Many of Their Ideas of Liberty from the Iroquois?
HNN ^ | 7-11-05 | By Jack Rakove

Posted on 07/13/2007 9:11:02 AM PDT by kawaii

7-11-05

Did the Founding Fathers Really Get Many of Their Ideas of Liberty from the Iroquois?

By Jack Rakove

Mr. Rakove is Coe Professor of History and American Studies, Professor of Political Science, at Stanford University.

Editor's Note: On Monday July 4th the New York Times published an op ed by journalist James Mann that made broad claims about the influence of the Iroquois on American constitutional history. Specifically, he argued that the Founding Fathers were deeply influenced by Indian ideas of liberty and that our very form of government was shaped in decisive ways by Indian influences at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787. True? Others have advanced this argument in the past and even convinced NY State a few years ago to adopt this view in teaching assignments. We asked Stanford historian Jack Rakove to assess the legitimacy of Mann's argument.

_______________________________________

So vivid were these examples of democratic self-government [from colonial Indian history] that some historians and activists have argued that the [Indians'] Great Law of Peace directly inspired the American Constitution. Taken literally, this assertion seems implausible. With its grant of authority to the federal government to supersede state law, its dependence on rule by the majority rather than consensus and its denial of suffrage to women, the Constitution as originally enacted was not at all like the Great Law. But in a larger sense the claim is correct. The framers of the Constitution, like most colonists in what would become the United States, were pervaded by Indian images of liberty. -- James Mann, in the NYT (7-4-05)

The English colonists did not need the Indians to tell them about federalism or self-government. The New England Confederation was organized as early as 1643. The claim of influence is based on a very strange idea of causality: Franklin at the Albany Conference in 1754 learned about federalism and self-government from the Iroquois and then 33 years later at Philadelphia passed on these ideas to his fellow delegates at the Convention. Never mind that Franklin was very elderly and scarcely spoke at the Convention. For discussion of the issue see articles by Elisabeth Tooker in Ethnohistory vols 35 (1988) and 37 (1990).--Gordon Wood

When I studied for my oral exams back in 1970-1971, I did not read a single work relating in any sustained way to the history of Native Americans. There were not that many then worth reading, and even in my special field of early American history, where the hottest and most innovative historical writing was taking place, the subject commanded little apparent interest.

That has all changed since, of course. One cannot imagine preparing the early American field without reading the works of James Merrell, Dan Richter, Richard White, and others. Equally noteworthy is the way in which the very conceptualization of the field, the perspective from which it is viewed and reconstructed, has changed.

It therefore seems appropriate that the New York Times has just marked the 229th anniversary of American independence by allowing Charles Mann, author of the soon-to-be-published Before 1491: New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus to preview his book on its op-ed page. (By the way, am I wrong to think that the NYT has been doing more of this recently? Call your publicist!) Mann is a journalist, so we can expect the work to be something of a synthesis that won't tell historians much that they do not already know. But what disappointed me about this piece is that it recapitulates the tired and dubious argument about the purported Iroquois influence on the Constitution, and the more general proposition that important elements of Euro-American democratic culture have origins in "the democratic, informal brashness of American Indian culture."

What's wrong with the Iroquois influence hypothesis? There are two principal and, I think, fatal objections to the idea that anything in the Constitution can be explained with reference to the precedents of the Haudenosaunee confederation.

The first is a simple evidentiary matter. The voluminous records we have for the constitutional debates of the late 1780s contain no significant references to the Iroquois. It is of course possible that the framers and ratifiers went out of their way to suppress the evidence, out of embarrassment that they were so intellectually dependent on the indigenous sources of their political ideas. But these kinds of arguments from silence or conspiratorial suppression are difficult for historians to credit.

But, it is objected, there were no real European antecedents and sources for the institutions that Americans created, or for the democratic mores by which they came to live. Again, this is a claim that cannot escape serious scrutiny. All the key political concepts that were the stuff of American political discourse before the Revolution and after, had obvious European antecedents and referents: bicameralism, separation of powers, confederations, and the like. Even on the egalitarian side of the political ledger, 17th-century English society did give rise, after all, to the radical sentiments and practices we associate particularly with the period of the Civil War and Commonwealth, the Levellers and the Putney debates, and the abolition of the House of Lords and the monatchy. And on this side of the water, New England colonists managed to set up town meetings before they had made much progress creating vocabularies of Indian words. The same can of course be said for the famous meeting of the Virginia assembly in 1619.

None of this is to deny that prolonged contact between the aboriginal and colonizing populations were important elements in the shaping of colonial society and culture. Whether those contacts left a significant political legacy, however, is a very different question.

Response by Charles C. Mann 7-21-05

Prof Rakove says that what "disappointed" him about my article "is that it recapitulates the tired and dubious argument about the purported Iroquois influence on the Constitution." Had he actually read the piece, he would not have been so disappointed. My article specifically criticized that argument as follows:

"...some historians and activists have argued that the Great Law of Peace directly inspired the American Constitution. Taken literally, this assertion seems implausible. With its grant of authority to the federal government to supersede state law, its dependence on rule by the majority rather than consensus and its denial of suffrage to women, the Constitution as originally enacted was not at all like the Great Law." **Not at all like** -- I don't know how to be clearer than that.

Instead of the straw man that Prof Rakove does battle with, I proposed a cultural argument -- that the well-known democratic spirit had much to do with colonial contact with the Indians of the eastern seaboard, including and especially the Iroquois. In other words, I was saying (as Prof. Rakove puts it in his piece) "that prolonged contact between the aboriginal and colonizing populations were important elements [sic] in the shaping of colonial society and culture." Why he seems to think I was saying something else is mystifying to me.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: americanindians; foundingfathers; history; influence; iroquois; whiteguysstealideas
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this isn't very current but i'd heard this claim in another venue and i'm trying to figure out how many state schools teach this, and what facts are accurate
1 posted on 07/13/2007 9:11:03 AM PDT by kawaii
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To: Pharmboy; LS

Haven’t read this yet, but my revisionist history antennae are twitching. Searching for a large grain of salt ...


2 posted on 07/13/2007 9:14:13 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (Brian J. Marotta, 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub, (1948-2007) Rest In Peace, our FRiend)
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To: kawaii

This was part of the NYS grade school civics curriculum by 1983 at the latest.


3 posted on 07/13/2007 9:16:30 AM PDT by wideawake (Paul, Tancredo, Conyers: Cowards of a feather abstain from voting together.)
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To: kawaii

I highly doubt that the founding fathers were wowed by the algonquin round table


4 posted on 07/13/2007 9:16:43 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kawaii

Well, I’d first like to read the Great Law of Peace, to see what’s in it.


5 posted on 07/13/2007 9:17:58 AM PDT by Vinny (What is a liberal? Someone that is a friend of every country but his own.)
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To: kawaii

How does it really matter?


6 posted on 07/13/2007 9:20:23 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: NonValueAdded

Since they left europe to form a new country based on these ideas before even meeting this indian tribe, I’d say his argument is wrong.

Also since the tribe was run by a chief in a structured way and not a democratic approach, I’d say he is wrong.


7 posted on 07/13/2007 9:20:24 AM PDT by edcoil (Reality doesn't say much - doesn't need too)
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To: stuartcr

i think if it’s a made up fairy tale and the schools teach it as fact it matters a lot.

would you like your children to be taught that aliens made the pyramids?


8 posted on 07/13/2007 9:21:40 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

Anoter PC phantasm


9 posted on 07/13/2007 9:22:11 AM PDT by Lexington Green (Paris Hilton did more time than Sandy Berger.)
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To: Vinny

http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/html/greatlaw.html


10 posted on 07/13/2007 9:23:03 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: mylife

The Iriquois, wyandot, huron and pequat were hardly inspirational.


11 posted on 07/13/2007 9:25:42 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kawaii

How would anyone know what really influenced the writers?


12 posted on 07/13/2007 9:26:04 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: kawaii

Chingagook might disagree!


13 posted on 07/13/2007 9:26:13 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: kawaii

It’s an old thesis, and the answer is no.


14 posted on 07/13/2007 9:27:24 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: kawaii
"Did the Founding Fathers Really Get Many of Their Ideas of Liberty from the Iroquois?"

"This isn't very current but I'd heard this claim in another venue and I'm trying to figure out how many state schools teach this, and what facts are accurate."

Read the excellent recent biography of John Adams by David McCullough and you will find that John Adams himself was the Founding Father contributing much of the original concepts. Adams was classically educated and his concepts came from enlightened thinkers in Europe, particularly England and France.

The Iroquois were an especially gifted and organized people, but the notion that American concepts of freedom came from them is hogwash and nothing more than leftist and revisionist gobbledygook.

15 posted on 07/13/2007 9:27:59 AM PDT by tom h
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To: kawaii
Some of this stuff was, in fact, in my daughter's high school history book although it did concede that the European philosophers of the day such as Locke and Voltaire might have had some influence as well.

The one thing we should be able to agree upon was that our founding fathers put together a remarkable set of ideas which was opposed by the elitists and divine rightists then just as it is now, albeit under the color of different wording of their shallow arguments.

It is also worth noting that the Iroquois Confederation was the result of hundreds of years of internecine warfare long before the Europeans arrived. Such warfare has been repeated almost everywhere on the planet as the economic base moved from the hunter/gatherer phase to the herdsman/farmer phase. The Cherokee (included in my family heritage), generally considered to be the most civilized of tribes are so considered because they were one of the first to develop a written language. Guess where they got that idea?

16 posted on 07/13/2007 9:28:24 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Are there any men left in Washington? Or are there only cowards? Ahmad Shah Massoud)
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To: NonValueAdded
"... my revisionist history antennae are twitching."

I have to agree with you.

17 posted on 07/13/2007 9:29:18 AM PDT by Red_Devil 232 (VietVet - USMC All Ready On The Right? All Ready On The Left? All Ready On The Firing Line!)
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To: kawaii
A new book devotes a whole chapter to this myth that's been taught our kids in the past few years.

33 Questions About American History You're Not Supposed to Ask, by Tom Woods.

Highly recommended.

18 posted on 07/13/2007 9:30:28 AM PDT by logician2u
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To: stuartcr

their numerous writings outside the constitution rife with quotes from enlightment philosophers, and allusions to freemasonry perhaps?


19 posted on 07/13/2007 9:31:06 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

I thought they got the inspiration from Pogo.


20 posted on 07/13/2007 9:32:30 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: kawaii; All

Can anyone tell me the names of the 7 Iroquois nations?
Its been a while since I was in grade school


21 posted on 07/13/2007 9:32:33 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kawaii
This smells like a crock of bullshite. The English colonists first interacted with Algonquins, not Iroquois. If the Founding Fathers derived any sort of foundational political ideas from the indians, those ideas would be Algonquin ones, not Iroquois ones. The Algonquins and the Iroquois were enemies.
22 posted on 07/13/2007 9:33:00 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: Hemingway's Ghost

yet this is literally in school textbooks... sick.


23 posted on 07/13/2007 9:34:32 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii
I don't hink Russell Kirk mentions them in The Roots of American Order.
24 posted on 07/13/2007 9:34:38 AM PDT by KC Burke (Men of intemperate minds can never be free...their passions forge their fetters.)
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To: kawaii
Did the Founding Fathers Really Get Many of Their Ideas of Liberty from the Iroquois?

They got their ideas from Dead White Men: the Bible, the Greek model of democracy, and English common law.

25 posted on 07/13/2007 9:34:51 AM PDT by Alouette (Vicious Babushka)
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To: kawaii
The Magna Carta, The Mayflower Compact, The Federalist Papers, as well as several of the Colonies Constitutions are the seminal source documents to our Republic. The Proceedings and transcripts to the Constitutional Convention further layout how our Constitution was constructed.

The Iroquois Confederation probably had a bigger impact on the formation of Canada than the US.

26 posted on 07/13/2007 9:35:33 AM PDT by AU72 (`)
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To: mylife

Sure, Levi, Judah...sorry...wrong tribe. It’s a Mel Brook’s thing.


27 posted on 07/13/2007 9:35:35 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: mylife

a drive through western new york would give it away

the original five were Seneca Mohawk Cayuga Onondaga and Oneida


28 posted on 07/13/2007 9:36:34 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: massgopguy

Youre a mensch! ;0)


29 posted on 07/13/2007 9:36:48 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kawaii
yet this is literally in school textbooks... sick.

Sick, but to be expected. Two things I was shocked to learn after I graduated high school and college: how much more there was still to learn about history, particularly American history; and how much of what I did learn about history was flat-out incorrect.

30 posted on 07/13/2007 9:37:52 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: kawaii

I remember the wyandot and huron and pequot as well.
I dont know how I forgot the mowhawk and seneca tribes.
The Miami were probably also involved


31 posted on 07/13/2007 9:39:38 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kawaii

PC doody. I am sure the Indians had some interesting customs and ideas. But this person has never heard of the Enlightenment and its luminaries, John Locke, whose writings were the basis for the Declaration of Independence; Voltaire, paging Voltaire, freedom of speech was his idea; Montesquieu, whose insights basically framed the Constitution. The Founding Fathers were well schooled in the thinking of the Enlightenment and familiar with those thinkers. Any input the Iroquois might have had would be secondary or tertiary to concepts of the European Enlightenment.


32 posted on 07/13/2007 9:41:00 AM PDT by 3AngelaD (They screwed up their own countries so bad they had to leave, and now they're here screwing up ours)
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
. . and how much of what I did learn about history was flat-out incorrect.

You'll especially appreciate the book I mentioned in #18 above. The chapter on Clinton's biggest scandal is worth the price.

33 posted on 07/13/2007 9:41:56 AM PDT by logician2u
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To: Hemingway's Ghost

I would be willing to bet,truth be told, that it was the french who brought these ideas to the indian tribes and that they were reinforced by the british.

I dont see our founders learning from the tribes


34 posted on 07/13/2007 9:42:20 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: AU72; kawaii

Please see post number 32.


35 posted on 07/13/2007 9:42:29 AM PDT by 3AngelaD (They screwed up their own countries so bad they had to leave, and now they're here screwing up ours)
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To: kawaii
Did the Founding Fathers Really Get Many of Their Ideas of Liberty from the Iroquois?

No.

This subject is a conflicting one, since answering the question in any substantive way gives credence to a truly stupid notion.

This is strictly in the "anything is possible" school of speculation, where the ignorant, the marginally insane and the demagogues dwell. It dovetails beautifully with the silly "All cultures are equal" school of discussion.

Only the ignorant, the marginally literate and culturally clueless would spend more than a few seconds pondering the possibility of the statement.

36 posted on 07/13/2007 9:44:43 AM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: 3AngelaD

I agree with your general thesis


37 posted on 07/13/2007 9:45:01 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kawaii
"Did the Founding Fathers Really Get Many of Their Ideas of Liberty from the Iroquois?

No, but maybe the Jihad i's have read some Iroquois history taken a few pointers of how to murder and mutilate human beings in the most gruesome ways possible.

The revisionist history that is infesting this country is disgusting.

38 posted on 07/13/2007 9:45:46 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: mylife

The Miami were west of the Appalachians.


39 posted on 07/13/2007 9:46:15 AM PDT by oblomov
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To: stuartcr
How does it really matter?

It matters only because the large body of feeble-minded will actually consider it possible. I suppose that doesn't matter either, although I would draw the line at starting to observe "Native Political Philosophers" national holidays.

40 posted on 07/13/2007 9:47:14 AM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: oblomov

Yes, in ohio


41 posted on 07/13/2007 9:47:59 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kawaii

The Iroquois’ influence was nil. The people who wrote our constitution were very specific as to their sources. Go back to books prior to about 1930...when historians revamped history royally.


42 posted on 07/13/2007 9:48:15 AM PDT by Sacajaweau ("The Cracker" will be renamed "The Crapper")
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To: stuartcr

From the published writings of the period; pamphlets, circular letters, records of debate, newspaper articles, memoirs, collected correspondence, etc.

The Founders came from a highly literate society, it smells fishy to me that these revisionist historians are unable to cite more than vague passing references in the published record of the period to support their “Iroquois Origins” theory of American federalism.

I do know the founders cite numerous classical sources and examples of constitutional arrangements in antiquity; republics, democracies, monarchies, oligarchies, etc.

The classical examples and the memory of English constitutional history; the English Civil War, the English Bill of Rights, the Glorious Revolution, etc., were foremost in their minds, giving us the “mixed” republican system we have.

The revisionists are simply a species of professional malcontents, dissatisfied with current arrangements and their place in the scheme of things, ie., marginal.

Their only source of satisfaction is p*ssing in the soup!


43 posted on 07/13/2007 9:50:05 AM PDT by skepsel
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To: oblomov

BTW The first home settled in the conneticut western reserve (ohio) is in my hometown


44 posted on 07/13/2007 9:50:06 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kawaii

Thanks.

From reading his all I can gather is that they set up rules to govern their Iroquois confederacy.

This is hardly novel and breath-taking since every community does this.

Did the revisionists read this, b/c I can’t find too much information, if any, that would convince me that our system of gov’t derived from the Iroquois.

Our system of government under the Articles of Confederation could plausibly reflect Iroquois influence, even though I think the idea of little republics was of Hebraic-Greek influence.

But Constitutional gov’t - that’s a stretch I think.


45 posted on 07/13/2007 9:51:05 AM PDT by Vinny (What is a liberal? Someone that is a friend of every country but his own.)
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To: kawaii
I would actually waste my time following that link, if you can assure me that the original indian manuscripts documenting the idea exist.

Psychologically suspect Europeans who filtered myth and oral history into a "noble savage" fantasy, doesn't quite do it for me.

Too many whites who love recreational drugs have forged far too many fantasies to take this stuff seriously.

46 posted on 07/13/2007 9:51:57 AM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: mylife

” I highly doubt that the founding fathers were wowed by the algonquin round table “

Maybe is was Algonquin Algorithms or Algonquin

Al Gore isms...........

:) :) : )


47 posted on 07/13/2007 9:52:02 AM PDT by patriotspride
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To: kawaii
"would you like your children to be taught that aliens made the pyramids?"

Are you saying they didn't?

We all know from revisionist history that evil white Europeans traveled through a peaceful world bringing murder and mayhem wherever they settled, overthrowing complex structured native societies, bringing down their vast centuries old archives of learning in centuries old universities carved out of mountains, to make aggregate for roads.

/s I think

48 posted on 07/13/2007 9:54:23 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: mylife

How cool. I have an old Map showing all the original paths etc. and the original lines. It has Hutchins signature. Which Township and range are you in?


49 posted on 07/13/2007 9:54:51 AM PDT by Sacajaweau ("The Cracker" will be renamed "The Crapper")
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To: Sacajaweau

I referenced the Algonquin round table. I was taught that this was the place of the meeting of iroquois nations.
I have just learned today that it was a movement by literary types that started in the 20’s

That would pinpoint your rewriting of history. It seems to trace back to these artsy fartsy liberal literary types


50 posted on 07/13/2007 9:55:13 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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