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Fossil finds shake up dinosaur theories
The Mercury News ^ | July 19, 2007 | Betsy Mason

Posted on 07/22/2007 8:19:41 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger

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To: vpintheak
Meanwhile, there has yet to be any proof that the Bible has been wrong on anything, end of story.

There was no global flood 4350 years ago.

51 posted on 07/23/2007 6:18:53 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: coincheck
Evolution is just a Theory with no evidence to back it up.

Check my FR homepage for definitions, including the definition of "theory."

If you are this wrong on something so simple, why should we trust anything else you have said?

52 posted on 07/23/2007 6:21:45 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
dinosauromorphs

Or as they are better known, the dinobots...


53 posted on 07/23/2007 6:50:44 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (As heard on the Amish Radio Network! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1675029/posts)
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To: snarks_when_bored
I used to have a small ranch on which I raised Youkneecorns and Nagues. To my ill fortune the Youkneecorns didn’t have any horns so I had to sell them to a Shetland Pony show. I did well selling Nague Hides until they stopped putting the skins on the roofs of the Detroit Dinaswoards. Had to go on wellfair. I am planning to start a hummingbird gizzard business in the near future.
54 posted on 07/23/2007 6:52:08 AM PDT by CHEE (Shoot low, they're crawling.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
"It has shaken up the old theory," said Bill Parker, a paleontologist at Petrified Forest National Park who also studies dinosaurs. "Everything was nice and neat before."

Not if you were honest and paying attention.

55 posted on 07/23/2007 6:52:25 AM PDT by mikeus_maximus (Islam is the poisonous soil that bears evil fruit.)
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To: snarks_when_bored

Dude, it’s missing the hairy chest and gold chains. I lived the 70’s.


56 posted on 07/23/2007 6:53:47 AM PDT by mikeus_maximus (Islam is the poisonous soil that bears evil fruit.)
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To: Coyoteman
There was no global flood 4350 years ago.

You fell into his trap. He'll just say that the evidence hasn't been found, yet. God always answers prayers-- either yes, no, or wait (which fits what happens when you pray to your toilet, too). Believers are always able to come up with ways to explain things that fit their beliefs.

57 posted on 07/23/2007 6:54:31 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: GraniteStateConservative
Believers are always able to come up with ways to explain things that fit their beliefs.


But what will happen to our theology if we admit error?

Not my problem. You painted yourself into a corner and you can get yourself out.

Source


58 posted on 07/23/2007 7:08:08 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Dinosaur fossils found in New Mexico are challenging the idea ...

Scientists thought dinosaurs evolved from the dinosauromorphs in South America. Then, they may have driven their predecessors to extinction by outcompeting them with their bigger, faster and stronger bodies. Or, their ancestors and other animals suddenly went extinct for another reason, ...

Either way, the belief was ...

"Everybody thought those animals had gone extinct ...

Where are all the FACTS?

59 posted on 07/23/2007 8:14:23 AM PDT by 4CJ (Annoy a liberal, honour Christians and our gallant Confederate dead)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Interesting. I don’t see that this has much bearing on the inherent improbability of general evolutionary theory one way or the other.

But it could make a difference in the toy industry. Maybe by next Christmas we’ll be seeing stuffed purple dinosauromorphs in Toys “R” Us.


60 posted on 07/23/2007 8:36:10 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: vpintheak
Amazing, the more things change the more they stay the same. We humans still don’t know anything. . .

These here computer things is bad magic if you ask me.

61 posted on 07/23/2007 8:52:58 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: ari-freedom

You bring up a valid point. I recall a profile specialist that would psycho analyze serial killers. He made a parallel of “monster stories” to explain inexplicable killings before there was forensic science to explain the evidence. Thus, when a travelling victim is found murdered on some road in the European Middle Ages, it must have been a “vampire” or “were wolf” that did it. For that time period, mutating monsters were the science fiction stories to explain the actions.

I think our modern comic books and movies explain good and bad angels. It seems to make sense that one who protects life is the hero or obedient angel, and the super human villians are fallen devils. Likewise, humans appear so incapable of fighting super human evils that we need the super heroes to fight for us and even with us.

And you’re right, it is great entertainment (I cry everytime. Okay, not everytime. And, uh, sometimes I like to see just how bad the bad guy gets before the super hero squashes them).


62 posted on 07/23/2007 9:01:37 AM PDT by SaltyJoe ("Social Justice" for the Unborn Child)
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To: Southack
“Impossible, mathematically, for the first species of life to cross-breed.”

Could you please explain this statement and provide the theorem and its support. Be sure to show you work

63 posted on 07/23/2007 9:06:26 AM PDT by stormer
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To: ari-freedom

“...or in other words...The Darwin business plan...”

I’m sorry you understanding of the Theory of Evolution is so poor you are unable to intelligently discuss it.


64 posted on 07/23/2007 9:10:39 AM PDT by stormer
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To: ahayes

Yes, 20, however you leave out some very important facts concerning the probabilitiy of amino acids forming life:

[[Fred Hoyle estimates the following probabilities for chance, random arrangement of amino acids:- (14)

10-19 for a ten amino acid polypeptide

10-20 for a functional enzyme

10-130 for the histone H4 molecule

10-40,000 for all of life’s 2,000 enzymes

This last value (10-40,000) shows the probability that a very, very tiny part of evolution could have happened. This probability is more unlikely than the monkey’s chance typing (viz 10-143) which have been used to ‘prove’ evolution.

Bear in mind that Mathematical Zero is 10-50. Any value smaller than this is relegated by mathematicians to the realm of ‘never happening’.]]

http://unmaskingevolution.com/20-typing.htm


65 posted on 07/23/2007 9:25:39 AM PDT by CottShop
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To: stormer

[[“Impossible, mathematically, for the first species of life to cross-breed.”
Could you please explain this statement and provide the theorem and its support. Be sure to show you work]]

Why bother? The whole life system breaks down far before we get to the impossibility of cross-breeding


66 posted on 07/23/2007 9:27:18 AM PDT by CottShop
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To: GraniteStateConservative

[[“Impossible, mathematically, for the first species of life to cross-breed.”
Could you please explain this statement and provide the theorem and its support. Be sure to show you work]]

Ah yes, toilets always answer very specific personal prayer requests- Good point. [/s]


67 posted on 07/23/2007 9:30:15 AM PDT by CottShop
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To: atlaw

Hey there smarty pants, I work at one all day long. I am amazed at what they can do when I put my mind to it. Still we don’t know jack just because we have all this cool technology


68 posted on 07/23/2007 9:32:10 AM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: Coyoteman

Send me the information regarding your comment please. Also, I have never heard any reputable scholar saying they know the exact datesof any Biblical event.


69 posted on 07/23/2007 9:36:22 AM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: vpintheak
Still we don’t know jack just because we have all this cool technology

Oh I agree. Take the thermos bottle. How do it know?

70 posted on 07/23/2007 9:42:51 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: CottShop
“The whole life system breaks down far before we get to the impossibility of cross-breeding.”

How so? Need I point out that reproduction takes place via methods other than “breeding” (sexual reproduction).

But my original question stands; if one makes a statement (especially one that apparently has some mathematical provability), one should be prepared to support it. Where is the support? Even given that, if we were sitting at my favorite Irish pub right now, I could prove, through demonstration, that 1 + 1 = 1.

71 posted on 07/23/2007 9:50:28 AM PDT by stormer
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I posted a similar article with a different title a few days ago. The retirees have nothing better to do than poop on threads all day - by posting cartoons, jokes, and songs. I quickly bailed.


72 posted on 07/23/2007 9:51:53 AM PDT by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (Evil never stops.)
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To: Coyoteman

[[There was no global flood 4350 years ago.]]

Nope- No sir- No flood- no evidenc3- never happened- nothjing at all to indicate it happend...

“We have verified the stable southwesterly pattern of paleocurrents across the craton documented by others [Potter and Pryor(1961), Seeland(1968)] and have chronicled its persistence with some variation throughout the Paleozoic. In the Mesozoic the currents exhibit increasing variability and shift from predominantly westerly to predominantly easterly. By mid Cenozoic there is no discernible continent-wide paleocurrent pattern, reflecting expected tertiary basinal sedimentation. These patterns and transitions must accompany major changes in global current trends.”

http://origins.swau.edu/papers/global/paleocurrents/default.html

“The massive deposits of coal and oil are called nonrenewable fossil fuels because there is no massive fossilization of this kind occurring anywhere in the world today!
In massive coal deposits there are trees buried upright and preserved before they had time to rot.
Millions of fossil shells and animals indicate rapid burial since they were still held together by muscle which normally rapidly decays.
In Nebraska there are hundreds of thousands of fossil bones of various animals buried in sedimentary layers which are laid down by rapidly moving water.
In Arizona there is the Petrified Forest which is actually a petrified log jam of thousands of trees that had their branches sheared off as they were transported by rapidly moving water and then deposited on the surface. See Exhibit 23K The Petrified Forest.

In California in the “Monterey Shale” an estimated one billion fish are fossilized in about 4 square miles!”

http://missinguniversemuseum.com/Exhibit23c.htm

“There are many big ammonite fossils in the Muktinath area of the Kali Gandaki valley, Nepal at around the elevation of 12,000 ft above sea level. This is one of the proofs that the Himalayas were indeed once under water. For many people who have faith in the Hindu religion, ammonite is one of the many forms of their Lord Vishnu. They keep the fossil in their worship room and worship it”

http://library.thinkquest.org/10131/geology_visual.html

“3. Mount Ararat was once submerged.
On Mount Ararat, a volcanic mountain complex, pillow lava is found at the 14,000 foot level. The United States Geological Society states: “Pillow lava is formed when basalts erupt underwater. Pillow lava’s are mounds of lava formed by repeated oozing and quenching of the hot basalt.”

Pillow lava must be extruded under water and is recognized by its high glass content caused by very rapid cooling. All of the igneous rocks examined on Ararat by geologist Clifford Burdick were highly glassy. Ararat apparently was submerged in water to above the present 14,000-foot level. This evidence gives further weight to the Biblical account of the flood. These evidences from geology and many more point to a violent, catastrophic past history of the earth. They imply a global flood with associated volcanic and mountain building activity which changed the face of the earth.”

http://www.calvaryag.org/apologetics/apologetics_11-evidence_flood.htm

Yup- no siree Bob- No evidence whatsoever


73 posted on 07/23/2007 9:57:07 AM PDT by CottShop
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To: stormer

how so?

[[Fred Hoyle estimates the following probabilities for chance, random arrangement of amino acids:- (14)

10-19 for a ten amino acid polypeptide

10-20 for a functional enzyme

10-130 for the histone H4 molecule

10-40,000 for all of life’s 2,000 enzymes

This last value (10-40,000) shows the probability that a very, very tiny part of evolution could have happened. This probability is more unlikely than the monkey’s chance typing (viz 10-143) which have been used to ‘prove’ evolution.

Bear in mind that Mathematical Zero is 10-50. Any value smaller than this is relegated by mathematicians to the realm of ‘never happening’.]]

http://unmaskingevolution.com/20-typing.htm


74 posted on 07/23/2007 9:58:13 AM PDT by CottShop
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To: metmom; editor-surveyor
"The amazing elastic one size fits all theory will go on being stretched to fit. They even admit it themselves; *the theory is adjusted as new data comes in*. No room for disproof there."

That's because the foundation of naturalism is always constant. It is the limiting factor for science, and yes science is limited. Science can *never* propose an explanation that is *not* natural. Therefore the requirement of being 'scientific' is the requirement for naturalism.

ID and creation are excluded a priori, not as a matter of the strength of the interpretation of the evidence.

75 posted on 07/23/2007 10:04:40 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: stormer
Impossible, mathematically, for the first species of life to cross-breed.

"Could you please explain this statement and provide the theorem and its support. Be sure to show you work." - stormer

Cross-breeding requires 2 species. The first species of life had no such option available for cross-breeding as a means to create the next form of life.

76 posted on 07/23/2007 10:25:45 AM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: metmom
The amazing elastic one size fits all theory will go on being stretched to fit. They even admit it themselves; *the theory is adjusted as new data comes in*. No room for disproof there.

I don't know very much about the biological sciences, but in physics theories are at times disproved. In the latter part of the nineteenth century experimental data disproved Newton's laws of motion. It took a few decades until Eistein came up with a theory that accounted for the new data. Now we know that Eistein's theory of relativity is not correct either, but there is not yet a consensus about which theory will replace Eistein. It will probably take a few decades before a consensus is reached.

It is important to keep in mind that a theory in science is never proved, although a theory can be disproved. Only mathematics provides rigorous proof because mathematics uses deductive reasoning.

Science uses inductive reasoning, and inductive reasoning is never a proof unless you have complete enumeration, and complete enumeration is not possible in this case. So when scientists speak carefully, they never say that a theory has been proved. They can only say that the data they have collected supports some theory.

77 posted on 07/23/2007 10:41:34 AM PDT by stripes1776
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To: CottShop
“Fred Hoyle estimates the following probabilities...”

Good for Fred; the astronomer who said it was pointless for there to be any more people on earth than he could meet? The fellow who mockingly coined the term “Big Bang” because he didn’t buy what has been come to be the accepted paradigm for the formation of the current universe? Do you know what any of this means, or are you just cutting and pasting?

78 posted on 07/23/2007 10:43:39 AM PDT by stormer
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To: editor-surveyor
I wonder if they can even articulate what the ‘old’ theory that got shaken up was.

lol, especially as they make it up as they go along

79 posted on 07/23/2007 10:44:57 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: Southack
“The first species of life had no such option available for cross-breeding as a means to create the next form of life.”

Again, you are misunderstanding how speciation takes place. Why do you think the “cross-breeding” will produce a new species? Do you understand the meaning of the term “species”? Do you realize there are mechanisms in place that can account for speciation beyond those of which you are (apparently) aware?

80 posted on 07/23/2007 10:48:46 AM PDT by stormer
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Ah, the cradle of civilization is the Middle East, not Africa.


81 posted on 07/23/2007 10:56:03 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: my_pointy_head_is_sharp

Shucks, you oughta ping me when you post a thread like that, and we can consolidate the poo.


82 posted on 07/23/2007 11:01:07 AM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
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To: CottShop
“...paleocurrents across the craton...”

How old is the craton? Do you know what a craton is?

“...there is no massive fossilization of this kind occurring anywhere in the world today...”

Wrong - the process is underway in swamps and peat bogs all over the world.

“This is one of the proofs that the Himalayas were indeed once under water.”

Exactly - look up Nicolai Steno.

“Pillow lava must be extruded under water...”

This is true, but is has nothing to do with, nor does it imply, a “global flood”.

For example, two days ago, at about 4000 feet in the Washington Cascades, I found a fossil that was a cast of a portion of palm leaf. What does that mean and how would you explain it?

83 posted on 07/23/2007 11:03:31 AM PDT by stormer
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To: DaveLoneRanger

84 posted on 07/23/2007 11:03:59 AM PDT by OB1kNOb (Support Duncan Hunter for the 2008 GOP presidential nominee. He will build the fence!!)
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To: CottShop

Demonstrate that a toilet has ever not answered personal prayer requests. You should pray harder to your toilet if you aren’t getting the result you desire.


85 posted on 07/23/2007 11:28:56 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: stormer
"Again, you are misunderstanding how speciation takes place." - stormer

Incorrect. I'm merely answering your specific question in post #76.

86 posted on 07/23/2007 11:29:23 AM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: mikeus_maximus
Dude, it’s missing the hairy chest and gold chains. I lived the 70’s.

I did say 'ancestor', but, hey, the Bob Guccione resemblance is there, baby...

87 posted on 07/23/2007 11:43:30 AM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: CHEE
I am planning to start a hummingbird gizzard business in the near future.

And they said entrepreneurship is dead!

88 posted on 07/23/2007 11:46:33 AM PDT by snarks_when_bored
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To: Southack
As Mendel discovered, crossbreeding between different species does not produce viable offspring. Successful crossbreeding (that which produces viable offspring) can take place between phenotypically different individuals of the same species. For example, black Guinea pigs can be bred with white ones, and the offspring will be either black or white. In some species, mixtures are formed; outstanding examples of these types of hybrids can be seen in roses. Note: new species are not formed, merely new varieties of the old.
89 posted on 07/23/2007 12:06:31 PM PDT by stormer
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To: Coyoteman
There was no global flood 4350 years ago.

With 3/4 of the earth's surface covered by water, an as yet undetermined amount of water under the earth, a significant amount of water in the clouds, a geologic record showing primarily sedimentary activity, and a fossil record extending worldwide it seems to be more a matter of preconceived bias than of scientific certitude that would cause one to dismiss a world-wide deluge out of hand. At least you've restricted your diagnosis to "precisely" 4,350 years ago, so I reckon there is little reason to question your statement.

90 posted on 07/23/2007 12:21:54 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: TheBattman
"Except that my suggested title is more accurate than yours..."

Don't you think the UC Berkeley paleontologists are scientists?
91 posted on 07/23/2007 12:28:23 PM PDT by ndt
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To: stormer
As Mendel discovered, crossbreeding between different species does not produce viable offspring.

It's difficult to see how Mendel could have discovered this, since he worked with plants, and plants produce fertile hybrids all the time.

Of course, one could define the problem away by asserting that the definition of species requires infertility when hybridized.

Real biology does not expect a strong definition of species.

92 posted on 07/23/2007 12:34:44 PM PDT by js1138
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To: Coyoteman
It is religious dogma that can't change to accommodate new data...

Do other types of dogma change based on new data, or only religious dogma?

93 posted on 07/23/2007 12:38:52 PM PDT by AndyTheBear (Disastrous social experimentation is the opiate of elitist snobs.)
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To: stormer

[[Do you know what any of this means, or are you just cutting and pasting?]]

Nope- I’ma complete idiot cutting and pasting stuff that I see you have a different opinion on- Aint opinions grand? Nope- No evidence whatsoever for flood- Well, no evidnece if your willing to discount all the evidence that is-= Dogma? Argggh- banish the thought- this be science we be spealin bout.


94 posted on 07/23/2007 12:54:39 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: AndyTheBear

[[Do other types of dogma change based on new data, or only religious dogma?]]

Nope just religious because it’s “not science” - other dogmas are fully allowed to change and discount lack of evidnece.


95 posted on 07/23/2007 12:57:07 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: DaveLoneRanger
How could a feather possibly evolve from a "scale"..
Made of the same stuff but infinitely different..
Feathers are intelligently designed by an architect....
96 posted on 07/23/2007 12:59:32 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: js1138

[[Real biology does not expect a strong definition of species.]]

Really? Because in the other thread, folks are demanding a precise strong definition of Baraminology- of course the onus is always on the Creation models of scientific endeavors for precision lest it be simply discarded and mocked but never is such an onus placed on evo science I guess


97 posted on 07/23/2007 12:59:56 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I guess they still don’t really know. They’re going to have to stop creating complex pseudo-scientific explanations for the world based on little slivers of bones.


98 posted on 07/23/2007 1:00:01 PM PDT by Leftism is Mentally Deranged
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To: AndyTheBear
Do other types of dogma change based on new data, or only religious dogma?

Actually, all dogma changes over time. Science is just faster, and therefore seldom uses the word, except sarcastically. It was once dogma that eating pork was a serious sin. It was once dogma that the earth cannot move.

99 posted on 07/23/2007 1:00:34 PM PDT by js1138
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To: stormer

[[How old is the craton? Do you know what a craton is?]]

They go on salads- duh!

[[Wrong - the process is underway in swamps and peat bogs all over the world.]]

The massive amounts of fossilizations occuring all at once that is seen in the example given? Wow! Cool!

[[This is true, but is has nothing to do with, nor does it imply, a “global flood”.]]

Your opinion- duly noted.

[[For example, two days ago, at about 4000 feet in the Washington Cascades, I found a fossil that was a cast of a portion of palm leaf. What does that mean and how would you explain it?]]

A bird dropped it by accident some time ago?


100 posted on 07/23/2007 1:03:35 PM PDT by CottShop
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