"I NEVER HEARD OF IT!"
Posted on 07/27/2007 8:42:59 AM PDT by processing please hold
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President George W. Bush, under fire over the treatment of CIA detainees, on Friday ordered that agency interrogators comply with the Geneva Conventions against torture.
Five years after he exempted al Qaeda and Taliban members from the Geneva provisions, Bush signed an executive order requiring the CIA to comply with prohibitions against "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" as set down in the conventions' Common Article 3.
Human rights activists criticized Bush's action, saying it did not go far enough to eliminate dangerous interrogation techniques.
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
I searched and didn't see it posted here.
I bet McPain's happy.
Codification of the United States’ long time unofficial policy towards the enemy in wartime. Any enemy that the US fights is treated according to the Geneva Convention and certain parts of the US Bill of Rights (freedom of worship, immunity from cruel and unusual punishment, etc). So what the President did is make an unofficial policy official.
Whether this should be done, however, is a matter of opinion.
Well...we are the good guys, and sometimes it’s hard being the good guys.
"I NEVER HEARD OF IT!"
IMO, he shouldn't have.
Fighting islamofacists with kid gloves and Geneva convention rules is gonna get us killed. If you see a rabid dog coming at you you don’t coddle it, you kill it.
I don’t think this was right at all. How do you fight against someone who’s killing has no rules?
Well this is great.
Isn’t it just. What’s next, support of the ICC?
But it applies to them none the less. Our hands are tied. They wear no uniform of a country so I fail to see why they are protected under the GC.
They should be summarily executed in the field.
Agreed!
Bad choice Bush Made there very bad. They should not be afforded the rights of Geneva convention because they do not honor them and they do not wear uniforms as required by the GC.
“What’s next, support of the ICC?”
I’d say that’s a good guess.
Being politically correct may get us all killed.
Agreed, a very bad choice. Kill them on the field, take the GC out of the equation.
That needed to be repeated.
NAZIs caught out of uniform and arreted were given a trial
and shot in the morning.
The USA will destroy itself from within and that,
is a gaurantee.
is a gaurantee.
It breaks my heart to admit it but you're absolutely correct.
There is no way to help the Bush boat is leaking so badly...before 11/08 GW will have signed a whole mess of International (UN/Socialist) Treaties...it is a tragedy!
This is not the man I voted for. ‘08 will not come fast enough. How much damage will he leave behind him is the question now?
There are 2 problems with what Bush did. First, it gives the Left more ammunition against him and the US generally because the implication is that before he did this we were torturing these cavemen.
Second, it is perceived as an act of weakness.
Both of these problems can be solved if we simply shoot every single one of these booger eating savages in the field. Milk them for info then blow their useless brains out. That’s right: execute them. No prisoners, ever.
Yes...but you dont torture it first. You just kill it (Rabid Dog).
I dont disagree with you there.
I know that is splitting hairs but I am not a fan of torture, we can kill the lot of them and still be adherent to the Geneva Convention.
If we capture the guy then we’re under Geneva convention rules, if he is uniformed. As far as the current battlefield is concerned, who says we have to capture them...unless they are in uniform...and the last time I checked...jihadis aren’t wearing uniforms.
:-) We can still fight by a code of conduct and win, which is what makes us different then them.
IMO, he's beyond caring anymore what either side thinks. He's taking this NWO nonsense to a higher level.
Second, it is perceived as an act of weakness.
We know what islamofascist do when they feel empowered by another's weakness-they exploit it.
Both of these problems can be solved if we simply shoot every single one of these booger eating savages in the field. Milk them for info then blow their useless brains out. That’s right: execute them. No prisoners, ever.
I agree 100% with that statement.
Bingo!
I fail to see how the Geneva Convention applies to jihadis...Bush has advocated this position in the past.
I don't equate panties on the head as torture. When they play by the rules-we'll play by the rules. I don't care how it makes us look. When fighting these dirty rotten bastards, there are no rules imho. They get what they give.
jihadis aren’t wearing uniforms.
They aren't, so the GC rules should not apply to them. This was a big mistake for Bush to make.
We can still fight by a code of conduct and win, which is what makes us different then them.
No we can't, they'll beat us. Winning at all cost is their code of conduct. We need to make so horrible for them that they will see it's a losing battle. Giving them rights and better food than some Americans is giving them no incentive to lay down their weapons and go back to molesting their goats and leave us and the rest of the world the hell alone.
Sorry if I was unclear but I think you and I are on the same page.
We can adhere to a code of conduct, meaning the GC, and still win...simply because our enemy doesnt fall within it.
If they dont fall within the GC...than we can exterminate them as the vermin they are. The GC was meant as rules of war for those considered “civilized” on the battlefield.
Since our enemy isnt civilized, we can deal with them at will.
If our enemy adopts a code of conduct, issues uniforms, treats our soldiers within the GC..then things change.
Follow me?
Oddly enough, the only description that fits the terrorists is “pirates” even though few of them use boats or ships.
We will be following the GC rules-they will not. How can we win against an enemy that follows no rules? Bush has effectively tied our hands on how we deal with them. There's no one to tie their hands when dealing with our captured soldiers.
If they dont fall within the GC...than we can exterminate them as the vermin they are. The GC was meant as rules of war for those considered “civilized” on the battlefield
Then why did Bush give them rights they don't qualify for? He should have left it the way it was.
If our enemy adopts a code of conduct, issues uniforms, treats our soldiers within the GC..then things change.
I agree but we both know they won't play by the rules, Bush knows it as well. He shouldn't have changed the rules this far into the game. It gives the jihadists a leg up.
I think you might be interperting this article (or what Bush did) too broadly.
He’s only giving GC rights to CIA detainees.
I’ll check that, thanks.
Just one thing before I have a look see. Aren’t they all CIA detainees until they have been classified as something else?
Are the prisoners at Gitmo, CIA prisoners?
IMO, I disagree. I can’t imagine our troops or interrogators ever sinking to the level of Saddam or Imperial Japan, nor should they. Long before Pres. Bush, our soldiers have always operated more or less on this maxim. Under Geneva, the VC and the hirabhist terrorists can simply be executed without cause. Instead, these people when captured by our military were taken to POW/EPW camps and given food and medicine.
Of course, there are times when this goes too far. After the bombings in Beirut, the CIA sent Keith Hall to find out who was responsible. He found one of the men who provided support to the operation. Through intimidation, rough housing, beatings, and even at one time pressing the man’s genitals against a radiator (might have gone a bit too far), he obtained the names of the people responsible. But when Hall returned to the States, the Agency threw out his information because of his methods.
IMO, most of what Hall did was perfectly justifiable and furthermore it worked. And the thing is, he didn’t use power tools, rubber hoses, wood chippers, rapes, falanga, or any other instruments preferred by the deprave and the demented. He succeded in extracting vital information without sinking to the level of his enemies, without excessive cruelty and sadism.
For the most part, America has it just right. We don’t want to put our enemies in the Hilton but we don’t want to put them in the gulags either. America has managed this delicate balance between excessive leniency and cruelty fairly well.
This is why we will always be better than our enemies; 1000 times, 1000000 times.
It'll make a pretty epitaph.
Please. These guys are pikers. Ironic that in the face of a vastly inferior enemy that is rapidly losing greater and greater support we are panicking even more than during World War II where we came face to face with two fascist ideologies that slaughtered millions and could, very realistically, come to America and conquer the world.
Our forefathers even in the darkest day of WWII stood strong. Today we shrink and run away and wail “Woe is me!” at a bunch of idiots who think blowing up people, including people who would ostensibly ally with them, is the proper method of global conquest.
Ask yourself this:
Which ideology:
- is responsible for an unmitigated decline in patriotism, morality, respect, and courtesy in America?
- is responsible for the dumbing down of America and the lost of knowledge?
- has hundreds of agents within the highest reaches of government, education, and the media?
- has compromised, distorted, and violated the Constitution on a constant basis?
- has affected even those who call themselves conservatives/right wing?
- can claim a body count of MILLIONS per year?
Pikers? Pikers?
That's the most irresponsible statement I've ever heard on FR and I've heard some doozies.
Go HERE
Here's another list for you.
PARTIAL LIST OF ISLAMIC TERRORIST ACTIVITIES
1968 Robert Kennedy assassinated
1972 Munich Olympics Sep-5,1972 (Black September)
1976 Entebbe Hostage Crisis, June 27, 1976
1979 Iran Hostage Crisis, Nov. 4, 1979 444 days
1979 Grand Mosque Seizure, Nov 20,1979
1981 Assassination of Egyptian President, Oct 6,1981
1982 Assassination of Lebanese Prime Minister, Sept 14, 1982
1983 Bombing of US Embassy in Beirut6, April 18,1983
1983 Bombing of Maring Barricks, Beruit, Oct 23,1983
1984 Hizballah Restaurant Bombing, April 12,1984
1985 Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, Nov 23,1985
1985 Rome Airport murders
1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacked, U.S. Navy diver murdered
1985 Achille Lauro hijacking, Homacidal maniac lived in saddams Iraq
1986 Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986
1988 Pan Am 747 Flight 103 Bombing, Lockerbie, 100's murdered
1988 Berlin Discoteque Bombing, Dec 21,1988
1992 Bombing in Israeli Embassy in Argentina, March 17,1992
1993 Attempted Assassination of Pres. Bush Sr., April 14,1993
1993 First World Trade Center bombing, February 26th, 7 Killed, Hundreds injured, Billions
1994 Air France Hijacking, Dec 24,1994
1995 Attack on US Diplomats in Pakistan, Mar 8,1995
1995 Military Installation Attack, Nov 13, 1995
1995 Kashmiri Hostage taking, July 4,1995
1996 Khobar Towers attack
1996 Sudanese Missionarys Kidnapping, Aug 17,1996
1996 Paris Subway Explosion, Dec 3,1996
1997 Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, Sept 4, 1997
1997 Yemeni Kidnappings, Oct 30,1997
1998 Somali Hostage taking crisis, April 15,1998
1998 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Peru, Jan 15, 1998
1998 U.S. Kenya Embassy blown up, 100's murdered
1998 U.S. Tanzania Embassy blown up, 100's murdered
1999 Plot to blow up Space Needle (thwarted)
2000 USS Cole attacked, many U.S. Navy sailors murdered
2000-2003 Intifada against Israel - 100's dead and injured
2000 Manila Bombing, Dec 30,2000
2001 4 Commercial airliners hijacked, 250+ murdered
2001 World Trade Center attacked, 2800+ murdered
2001 Flight 93 murders
2001 Pentagon attacked, 180+ murdered
2002 Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and murdered
2002 Philippines American missionary, Filipino nurse killed
2002 July 4, El Al attack Los Angeles LAX, several murdered
2002 Bali bombing - 200 dead, 300 injured
2002 Yemen, French Oil Tanker attacked
2002 Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait
2002 Washington D.C. sniper
2002 Russian Theater attacked, 100+ dead
2002 Nigerian riots against Miss World Pageant, 200 dead, dozens injured
2002 Mombasa Hotel Attacked, 12 dead, dozens injured
2002 Israeli Boeing 757 attacked by missiles, fortunately no one injured
2002 August Hotel bombing in Jakarta, Indonesia. 12 dead, dozens injured.
2003 Rusian concert bombing
2003 Phillipines airport and market bombing
2003 Foiled SAM plot in the USA
2003 UN Baghdad HQ Bombing
on and on and on and on their terrorism has gone .........
Or my favourite:
What is Jihad: The Arabic word Jihad is derived from the root word Jahada (struggle). Jihad has come to mean an offensive war to be waged by Muslims against all non-Muslims to convert them to Islam on the pain of death. Jihad is enjoined on all Muslims by the Quran.
This site brings you the history of the Islamic Jihad from a neutral and factual viewpoint.
Site Map
The Jihad against Arabs (622 to 634)
The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)
The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)
The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)
The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians - modern Sudanese (650)
The Jihad against pagan Berbers - North Africans (650 to 700)
The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)
The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)
The Jihad against Franks - modern French (720 to 732)
The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)
The Jihad against Chinese (751)
The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)
The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)
The Crusade against Jihad (1096 – 1291 ongoing)
The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)
The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)
The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays (1450 to 1500)
The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)
The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)
The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)
The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)
The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)
The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)
The Jihad against Albania (1332 - 1853)
The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)
The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)
The Jihad against Austrians (1683)
Jihad in the Modern Age (20th and 21st Centuries)
The Jihad against Israelis (1948 – 2004 ongoing)
The Jihad against Americans (9/11/2001)
The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)
The Jihad against the Germans (1945 onwards)
The Jihad against the Indians (1947 onwards)
The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao(1970 onwards)
The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)
The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)
The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)
The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)
The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)
The Global Jihad today (2001 – ongoing)
The War on Terror against Jihad today (2001– ongoing)
If that's not enough to convince you that they are not PIKERS, look HERE. There's so many murdered they have to list them by the year.
I can throw sites and links at you all day that document the PIKERS determination to kill us all. You take that piker cr@p with you.
Yeah. I said it. Pikers.
These guys can not command the population in the manner that Tojo or Hitler had. We couldn’t get German and Japanese freedom fighters to form up Armies and fight against the Fascists like we do now. Everyday our position in Iraq and Afghanistan is getting stronger. We gain more allies. We kill more terrorists. We are killing them above replacement rate. Muslims and Arabs are going “Enough!” and are abandoning Al Qaeda and the other hirabhists. Iraq and Afghanistan would look a hell of a lot different if these guys were as good, numerous, and/or powerful as our adversaries of old.
The terrorists can never win. Never. Their tactics are not one of conquest but defense and terror. Car bombs and beheadings are not a viable tactic for gaining and controlling territory. The most they could ever do is create victims through attrition. Of course, that’s small comfort to their victims. But it doesn’t change the fact that hirabhist terrorism is not as powerful an enemy as some of our previous ones. Even Imperial Britain were a superior opponent to the so called “insurgents” getting mowed down in Iraq by our forces AND the Iraqis.
You still didn’t answer my question. Which ideology is responsible for all of those things that I mention? In other words, which ideology is more dangerous to the well-being of the United States of America, hell, to Western Civilization?
The that goes to show just how much you know about our enemy with that asinine statement. We have never had a foe like the jihadist.
Whether you will admit it our not but we may come face to face with a more than a billion screaming muslims with one objective in mind-killing infidels or creating dhimmies.
Islam is more dangerous!
“We have never had a foe like the jihadist.”
You’re kidding. What about the Imprerial Japanese who launched wave of suicidal attacks just to get at one American? What about the Vietnamese Communists, hidden amongst the native populations, who utilize terror, assasinations, and bombings? What about Aidid’s ability to rally thousands of Somalis to do his bidding? Needless to say that for the most part, America’s various enemies in the 20th/21st Century are bloodthirsty, cruel savages who have little regard for life, even of those they claim to protect.
Newsflash, we’d met, fought, and defeated all these enemies before (do I really have to explain what happend in Vietnam and Somalia?). Al Qaeda and allies are simply inferior reiterations of our previous enemies.
Why are they inferior? Because they can’t invade the United States and capture territory. Because they don’t have the technology to destroy us all in one fell swoop. Because they don’t have agents that can subvert and destroy America’s freedoms and culture and replace it with their insipid ideology.
But most important of all, they lack the men to carry out their vision. Their ability to persuade and recruit are not only extremely limited to a certain group, they are losing even those precious few avenues. Not only that, their ability to command loyalty of the people are steadily declining as more and more Afghanis, Iraqis, and Muslims and Arabs in general reject their message of hirabhism. The level of loyalty seen in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan has been unmatched in recent history. When thousands of Muslims ignore them and even take up arms against them, they are not on the cutting edge of success.
Does that mean they can’t hurt us? Of course not. They could easily kill millions of people. What it does mean is that, they can’t destroy America. They don’t have the right firepower, technology, subterfuge, or manpower to defeat America. Pit them against our other adversaries and they wouldn’t last long at all.
“we may come face to face with a more than a billion screaming muslims with one objective in mind-killing infidels or creating dhimmies.”
Uh-huh. Right. That’s why our troops are being attacked in every village and city in Iraq and Afghanistan and we’d had no help whatsoever from the locals.
No, wait...
That’s why Amir Taheri, Zalmay Khalizad, Hamid Karzai, and hundreds of Muslims in the Armed Forces aren’t helping us in the War on Terror.
Um, hold on...
That’s why I’m dead and my ghost is talking to you because the Muslims I’ve met decapitated me and-
Oh forget it.
There are approximately 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. (Unless you’d like to argue that it’s the dreaded “TAQQIYAAAAAA!!!!1!!1!11!!!!1!eleventy” of those dang Muslims.) That’s more than enough to take on the world. If I have an army of 1 billion, I wouldn’t wait. I’d strike.
The fact that:
- many hirabhists have defected and even provided vital intelligence to our side,
- Iraqis and Afghanis are building a society and helping us fight the terrorists,
- Muslims all over the world are assisting with the WOT,
- and the fact that only 3 people bothered to protest in America during the cartoon riots (which only occured because three Danish Imam hirabs manufactured three more cartoons AND went to the most radical regions of the ME to present the cartoons to incite the crowd),
all of this disproves the “1 billion Muslim army” paranoia.
All of this disproves the stupid idea that they are all like Borg or the Hive mind. If they are really this massive army ready to kill and subjugate, we’d already be fighting. 1.4 billion is already an army. The fact that they are not doing so disproves it.
The terrorists’ power is attrition, nothing more. We have greater and more devious enemies to contend with. Not the least of which are inside our very own borders and steadily undermining everything we hold dear.
So I ask you again, which ideology accomplished all of this:
- is responsible for an unmitigated decline in patriotism, morality, respect, and courtesy in America?
- is responsible for the dumbing down of America and the lost of knowledge?
- has hundreds of agents within the highest reaches of government, education, and the media?
- has compromised, distorted, and violated the Constitution on a constant basis?
- has affected even those who call themselves conservatives/right wing?
- can claim a body count of MILLIONS per year?
Which ideology is the greatest threat to America? Which ideology is the greatest threat to Western Civilization?
Al Qaeda and allies are simply inferior reiterations of our previous enemies.
Inferior, this is where the bs came into it.
Because they don’t have agents that can subvert and destroy America’s freedoms and culture and replace it with their insipid ideology.
You don't think our elected leaders are not allowing this to happen piecemeal in our country? Check our schools lately where muslims are getting foot wash rooms, prayer rooms set aside for them to use during school hours, having muslim day.
But most important of all, they lack the men to carry out their vision.
It only takes one with a suicide belt to kill many. We couldn't take those kinds of hits for long could we.
Uh-huh. Right. That’s why our troops are being attacked in every village and city in Iraq and Afghanistan and we’d had no help whatsoever from the locals.
I've talked to soldiers back from iraq who complain that their hands are tied. An explosion goes off and iraqis fill the street celebrating when our soldiers are killed or injured, then the next day they see some of the same iraqis who the day before were cheering their deaths waiting in line begging for food.
Which ideology is the greatest threat to America?
This is the second time I've told you, I won't a third.
ISLAM
Well if the CIA is following the geneva convention then its allowed to torture and even kill these guys. According to the geneva convention they are not protected because they are not uniformed fighters in an army but rather are dressed in civilian clothes and are blending in.
I’m afraid the left doesn’t see the difference between wearing a uniform and civilian clothes. All they’ll see is a poor prisoner who needs protection from the bad old Americans and the GC is the way to do it.
“Which ideology is the greatest threat to America?
This is the second time I’ve told you, I won’t a third.
ISLAM”
ROFLMBO!!!!! ROFLCOPER!!!!
Oh wait you are serious...
I can try to explain why you are completely wrong by every streatch of the imagination, despite the fact that I have laiid it out for you very clearly no less than 3 separate times, but I won’t.
I’ll just leave you with this advice: worry less about the hirabhists than the people in this country actively allying with them in furtherance of ANOTHER more INSIDIOUS, DANGEROUS, and DEPRAVED ideology than the hirabhist delusion of matyrdom and (un)holy war.
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