Posted on 07/27/2007 10:36:59 PM PDT by NOOBIE
The Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office arrested activists Mark and Deborah Kuhn in West Asheville Wednesday morning after a complaint that the couple was desecrating an American flag. They say a deputy invaded their home and used excessive force. [The photo at right, taken by a neighbor, shows Mark on the ground, with Deborah standing by, during the arrest.]
The flag was hung upside down as an act of protest and had several statements pinned to it, including a picture of President Bush with the words “Out Now” upon it and one explaining the meaning of the upside down flag, a sign of distress.
The Kuhns, along with several neighbors and witnesses, assert that a sheriff’s deputy violently invaded their home at 68 Brevard Road. The sheriff’s office claims that the couple assaulted deputy Brian Scarborough and resisted arrest.
According to the report from the sheriff’s office, Scarborough arrived at the home at 8:45 a.m. in response to a complaint about the desecration of a flag.
Lt. Randy Sorrell says that while the address was in the city of Asheville, “when we receive a complaint that the law is being broken, we have to respond.”
Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag. The Kuhns said the flag was taken as evidence, though the sheriff’s department has no record of it.
After knocking on the door, the couple answered it and, after being shown the statute, said they complied and took the flag down. Scarborough then asked for their identification.
“The flag covered our whole front porch; he comes up with this printout about the law and tells us that we can’t attach things to the flag, that we’re desecrating it,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We tell him we’re not meaning to desecrate it — all we had was a picture of [President] Bush with ‘out now’ on it and a note saying this was not a sign of distress or disrespect. We did this because the country is in distress and we don’t know what to do.”
Then, she said, Scarborough “started talking arrest, so we took the flag down. He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”
There, the accounts diverge. According to Deborah Kuhn, Scarborough “tried to force the door, but we got it closed and locked it with the deadbolt. He then kicked it, punched the glass out, unlocked our door and came after us.”
The sheriff’s office report states that “the man [Mark Kuhn] refused to identify himself and slammed the door on the officer’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting the officer’s hand.”
However, the Kuhns’ account is backed up by Jimmy Stevenson, who was working with Ace Hardwood Floors nearby and asserts that he saw Scarborough break down the door.
“I saw that one cop [Scarborough] pull up and I saw those people come out on the porch and start talking to him,” Stevenson said. “They took their flag down, asked the officer to leave and closed the door. Then he started kicking the door, he kicked it about five or six good times, then he laid right into it. After he got done kicking it, he broke the window out – I saw him hit the window.”
Deborah Kuhn says that Scarborough then “pursued my husband into the kitchen, they were scuffling, [and] Mark was trying to get away from him. He pulls out his billy club and I call 911 and say that an officer has broken into our house and is assaulting us.”
Scarborough sustained a cut to his arm when the window broke and Mark Kuhn had several cuts on his face from the scuffle with Scarborough.
“I was just trying to defend myself and back away from him,” Kuhn said. “They never, ever told us why we were being arrested until we were in jail.”
Deborah Kuhn asserted that no warrant was displayed or permission asked to enter the house. After calling 911, she says, she ran outside and began screaming for help.
Sam York, who lives nearby the couple, was awakened by the struggle, as the Kuhns and Scarborough both came out into the yard. “I woke up to Debbie screaming,” he said. “Mark and Debbie were saying ‘you assaulted us’ and the officer [Scarborough], was demanding their identification. Then another officer threatened them with a taser. He told Debbie to back away or he’d taser her and demanded that Mark get on the ground.”
Sorrell confirms this part of the account: “When they were outside, one of the other officers produced a taser and he [Mark Kuhn] surrendered and submitted.”
Deborah Kuhn’s screams also drew the attention of Shawn Brady and several of his roommates, who live next door to the couple. “I run outside and ask them what’s going on and there’s cops chasing Mark around his car,” Brady said. “They threaten to taser him and demand that he get on the ground. He gets on the ground and we ask them what they’re being charged with. They tell us it’s none of our concern. I tell them they’re our neighbors and it is our concern.”
Neal Wilson, who lives with Brady, also saw the deputy produce the taser, he says. After repeated questions, Brady and roommate Tony Plichta said that the deputies replied that “they didn’t know yet” what the couple would be charged with.
“This is an outrage,” Brady said. “The 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments were clearly broken today.” Plichta expressed similar anger. “They actually wanted to know why we cared — these are our neighbors,” he said.
Following the arrest, the Kuhns were taken to the Buncombe County Detention Facility, where they were charged with two counts of assaulting a government official, and one count each of resisting arrest and desecrating an American flag. Their son posted their bail shortly afterwards.
This was not the first time that the flag had attracted attention. On July 18, with just the upside-down flag hanging, an Asheville police officer stopped by to inquire about the situation.
“He was very polite and just said that because it was a sign of distress, he wanted to make sure everything was OK,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do. We asked if we had violated any ordinance. He said, ‘No, you have every right.’”
After that, Deborah Kuhn said that she posted up the picture of Bush and the explanation of their reasons for displaying the flag in protest.
A couple of days later, Mark Kuhn said that a man in military fatigues came to their door, and was driving a car with a federal license plate. “He stood here telling me that I needed to take the flag down or fly it right,” he said.
Kuhn adds that he assumed the man was with the National Guard, due to the nearby armory.
Wilson, Plichta and Brady said that after the man stopped by, they also saw him drive by several times during the following days, and one night, witnessed several other men in fatigues taking pictures of the flag.
Furthermore, Wilson said that as the Kuhns were being arrested and taken off, he saw a man in fatigues drive by and shout “Go to jail, baby!”
After his experience, Mark Kuhn said he is convinced this is not an isolated occurrence. “If Americans don’t wake up to the martial state we’re in, the cops, the police, the sheriffs, the state police will all come to our door and take us away if we allow this to happen – it’s time for America to wake up.”
I assume there are laws against sending false distress signals. The protestors should be treated like someone who has just called in a false fire report, and charged with the expense of sending over the officers.
>>The sheriff’s office report states that “the man [Mark Kuhn] refused to identify himself and slammed the door on the officer’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting the officer’s hand.”<<
On the surface it does not sound like the deputy had cause to be forcing his way into the home in the first place.
Scumbags, all. I am sick and tired of these people.
May God bless the person who reported these scum.
They should have sent in the SWAT team and smoked them out with tear gas and pepperballs.
The amusing thing here...is that this idiot arrested will bring a civil suit up....with some lawyers involved...to discover that his case isn’t winnable but he will have to pay well over $50k to discover this. Whatever point he wanted to make....is totally lost when you shell out $50k of your personal fortune.
>>They should have sent in the SWAT team and smoked them out with tear gas and pepperballs.<<
You really should have a crime first before you do that.
This was their flag and they were making apolitical statement.
That is was a political I don’t agree with doesn’t change that the supreme court has been really clear on this. The cop was wrong to come into their house without permission.
...and then the Kuhns were taken to the nearest WalMart detention center and forced to wear panties on their heads...
I’ll bet these two posted their “We’re so sorry” pictures on the internet after President Bush was re-elected.
I wish to take the probably unpopular view that :
No police officer should ever enter a private home without the issuance of a search warrant .
These people will win big in court on this matter .
The PD will end up paying a sizable settlement award ,
and the officer involved will be let go .
>>I wish to take the probably unpopular view that :
No police officer should ever enter a private home without the issuance of a search warrant .
These people will win big in court on this matter .
The PD will end up paying a sizable settlement award ,
and the officer involved will be let go .<<
I almost agree except there are occasions of hot pursuit of felons and circumstances where life in endanger.
In this case, even if the cop had a case, which he sounds like he did not, he could have waited for a warrant.
This is a bad cop, if the story is accurate.
I remember a test case where a prostitute hid money inside herself. The cops forcibly searched her instead of waiting for a warrant and the judge threw the case out because there had been no need to proceed without a warrant as “the money would not have dissolved.”
I especially liked the “green paranoia” the only thing missing was black helocopters.
Yeah, they had set this up with their next door neighbor ahead of time, anticipating what rights the APD officer would violate. < /s>
The officer should count himself lucky the couple wasn't into exercising their Second Amendment rights.
Correction - should be Buncombe deputy, not APD officer.
I agree. In any case, I thought flag desecration laws were made null by the Supreme Court flag burning decision - in which Scalia concurred.
He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”
In most states (perhaps all) if a LEO investigating a crime asks for your ID you are required to produce it.
When the Kuhns retreated in to there home and locked the door it constituted fleeing and resisting arrest.
Too many good Americans have died for that flag
for it to ever be treated disrespectfully by anyone
for any reason .
I understand the officers rage . He is probably a vet.
But when you wear the uniform of the PD , you have to play
by the rules of law ,and cannot make up the rules as you
go along.
These kind of no warrant search/entries, and no-knock warrants
are both unConstitutional and dangerous.
If they are to properly enforce our laws ,they must
apply the enforcement properly.
Otherwise the people will cease to respect the laws as well
as the law officer.
Thank you. Finally.
This thread was racing off into moonbat heaven.
Yeah, those cops are really beating the hell out of that guy. Obviously excessive force and police brutality.
Inverted national flags are no longer commonly used as distress signals. It is difficult or impossible to determine when the flags of many countries (such as the United Kingdom or Argentina) are inverted, or the viewer may not be familiar with the flag and may not realise it is not upright. If a national flag is all that is available, distress may be indicated by tying a knot in it, making it into a wheft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_signal
They were not being arrested at that point, so I don't think resisting applies.
Were they suspected of a felony? It is my understanding that warantless entries are only authorized in acute emergencies (hostages, shootings, etc.), and in pursuit of a fleeing felony suspect.
This post is in response to those who served in the military and defend the actions of the police in this instance. I served and I am now an attorney. I understand the pride in our country and the freedom for which it stands. I understand that the flag has more meaning to us than many civilians will understand. I understand that you find this form of protest to be distasteful. I am deeply troubled by the direction in which this administration has taken this country but I still shake my head at those who protest in this fashion. It would not be my choice but I would happily lay down my life to protect their right to offend me and still be free from police invasion of their home. I say this assuming that the facts are true as described. PLEASE remember that the sacred freedoms you defend include the freedom to protest and even the freedom to desecrate the flag. PLEASE remember that you swore an oath to the Constitution of the United States, not the President or the flag. American blood has never been spilled to protect the piece of fabric. It was always spilled to protect the freedom represented by the flag. Countries like China, Iraq, Nazi Germany and the former U.S.S.R. had laws against flag desecration and protest against the government. Do we really want to be counted among those nations. That is what you advocate when you cheer these sorts of laws and cheer the police for enforcing them with such blind zeal. Take a moment and think about the freedom to speak your mind that you enjoy and remember that the price you pay for that is having to tolerate the offensive statements of those you despise. We served, fought and spilled blood to protect exactly this freedom. Be offended if you like but I think of it as a show of gratitude for my service.
They do not have to be under arrest. They were in the process. The LEO was in the middle of Q and A. The LEO was in the process of deciding whether arrest was the appropriate course of action.
The article states that it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag this makes them subject to arrest.
At the point where they refused to provide proper identification to the LEO they were subject to arrest. (I suspect had these people provided the LEO with the requested ID the officer would have checked them for prior arrest and let it go at that).
Once they fled the LEO they may have committed a felony I don’t know N. Carolina statues.
If you wish to have a life altering experience Flee an Arresting LEO.
It is my understanding that if an officer asks you to identify yourself, you must do so. I believe it to be a legal order.
Kuhn refused. He was stupid. You can go to jail for that.
Don’t lump me in this lot.
I will however defend LEOs doing their jobs.
These people were unnecessarily offensive to this LEO and as I said in my post #18; in most states (perhaps all) if a LEO investigating a crime asks for your ID you are required to produce it.
I personally agree that desecration of the flag should not be against the law. It is however in very poor taste and I would never be associated with some one doing it.
I believe that these LEOs performed their duty correctly (if the details of this article are correct).
Had the home based protestors simply complied with the request for ID that most likely would have been the end of the encounter or at most the officer would have returned to his car to check them for prior arrest.
In my opinion the home owners chose to turn the encounter offensive.
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me you would have to be in the process of being arrested, not in the process of being questioned, to be charged with resistance. Say a LEO asks you on the street to break out some ID, and you take off running. That is certainly fleeing, but is it resisting arrest?
The article states that it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag this makes them subject to arrest.
Which means they were not fleeing felony suspects for the original alleged crime.
At the point where they refused to provide proper identification to the LEO they were subject to arrest.
I don't dispute that, but I think we agree they were in the process of being questioned, not arrested.
Once they fled the LEO they may have committed a felony I don't know N. Carolina statues.
I don't know either. Let me ask this, if a LEO is on your property without a warrant, and you are not suspected of a felony, does the LEO have to leave if asked?
They would not identify themselves. Enough.
“...Then, she said, Scarborough “started talking arrest, so we took the flag down. He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”
There, the accounts diverge. According to Deborah Kuhn, Scarborough “tried to force the door, but we got it closed and locked it with the deadbolt. He then kicked it, punched the glass out, unlocked our door and came after us.” ...”
For that, I shoot the deputy.
The witness bears out the victims story.
The question for the mentally challenged around here, is not whether or not someone is a drooling bushbot or maybe they hate the man, but;
Who owns the flag?
Does the government own the flag?
If not, then people can do as they wish with it whether you like it or not.
When the jackboots break down your door, the correct response is to kill them.
I do not like the folks with the flag, and I find myself hating the Gestapo tactics even more. These are the same type of scumbag cops who drive around in unmarked radar cars. They want to be secrete police.
Your papers please, indeed.
I know the supporters of the Gestapo tactics will say, if you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear from them. Baloney they will get the quota one way or another. I do hate the Gestapo in their hidden cars. I do not have a problem with real cops out solving crimes and helping people.
Your papers please, sheesh.
Some of the above posters probably cheered as Mt Carmel burned, with the children inside.
How is closing the door to your home fleeing?
I hate to say it, but this POS will most likely get a windfall out of this. The insurance company for the county will settle.
From what I hear, Asheville has turned into a hilbilly San Francisco anyway.
“...I don’t know either. Let me ask this, if a LEO is on your property without a warrant, and you are not suspected of a felony, does the LEO have to leave if asked?...”
In the formerly free Republic of the United States of America they did.
There have been many cases in the news where liberal communities have sent the goons to force homeowners and business owners to take down their correctly displayed American flags.
Were the posters here cheering that as well?
If rights don’t stand for those you disagree with then they don’t stand for you.
You have got that right.
If they showed up at my door, demanding to see my papers, I would show them my tax bill, where I am paying their union wages.
It was.
In most states (perhaps all) if a LEO investigating a crime asks for your ID you are required to produce it.
Correct me if wrong?
Under the new, Homeland Security Act, if an officer of the law requires an ID from some-one, they are to present it to the officer.
On the surface it does not sound like the deputy had cause to be forcing his way into the home in the first place"
The Asheville Citizen Times broke the story but their stuff can't be posted here. A freakinasheville.com chat board poster claims this:
"i saw the news report in which the witness spoke, too. the officer wanted id's to make out a ticket, they closed and locked the door on him and would not open the door. the witness said the officer broke the glass, opened the deadlock and entered the home"
I don’t see the flag desecration angle as being winnable in court. A trashy slut wearing a flag thong is more disgraceful than a Citizen participating in political expression.
By who? The non-jack booted thugs wearing badges?
Was the cop out of line? Yeah, but when you’re looking for a fight don’t act all shocked when you get one.
Not in North Carolina. Under a state statute, "it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag".
Police officers are allowed to demand identification (or that a person identify themselves) and pat a person down only if they have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has or is about to occur -- a situation known as a Terry stop. So the officer was correct in demanding this clown's ID, and correct in arresting him for refusing (Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada).
Any other time, a police officer may request identification -- if you give it to them it can be used against you. If you do not wish to give your identification (and you don't have to), simply ask, "Am I free to go?"
i would like to know where there is a cop helping people.
I agree, though it should be a two-part law:
A) Anyone may desecrate the American flag without fear of arrest.
B) Anyone may kick the $hit out of anyone desecrating the American flag without fear of arrest.
What do you base all this on? Did you read what the witnesses stated?
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