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Society Of Vertebrate Paleontology Speaks Out On Creation Museum
ScienceDaily ^ | July 30, 2007

Posted on 07/29/2007 2:13:08 PM PDT by EveningStar

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To: dwhole2th

“I look to science for those facts.”

Science isn’t a dissemination of facts. It’s a process for arriving at facts. The scientific process can’t prove origins because origins are unobservable.

“Knowledge of the physical universe in no way removes us from God, it brings us closer because we learn how great He is.”

If knowledge of the physical universe shows God to be a liar. I don’t want to have anything to do with that God. God says, in His Book, for by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin... Old earth theory, belief, faith shows us that death occurred before men were created so death isn’t the result of sin. It’s just natural. God is a liar for this reason and others if your science, belief, faith is true.


51 posted on 07/31/2007 9:20:00 AM PDT by demshateGod
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To: demshateGod

It’s pretty extreme to say science makes God a liar. That makes science evil.

If that is true then science would be the work of Satan, not a gift from God.

Maybe that is really what young Earth creationists believe. That science is the work of the devil.

If so, I am really messed up because I have always found great beauty in science especially when I combine it with awe of the One who gave us the ability to understand how things work. Was the One Satan?

I guess it still boils down to whether or not you believe every single word in the Bible means precisely one thing. I don’t believe that but if you do, good for you.

Just don’t try to convince others by rejecting science which is exactly what Ken Ham does. He lies about science and gets people to believe his lies.


52 posted on 07/31/2007 9:45:39 AM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th

Evolution is not science but science falsely so called. It’s a religion. Just like Islam, it’s not a religion of peace. Just like you, I was indoctrinated into the established state religion of Evolution. I rejected it based on faith and my faith has been vindicated by men like Ken Ham.


53 posted on 07/31/2007 10:04:13 AM PDT by demshateGod
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To: demshateGod

Well, I sure can’t argue with that sort of reasoning ;-)


54 posted on 07/31/2007 10:18:21 AM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th

“Well, I sure can’t argue with that sort of reasoning ;-)”

Good, because I need to get back to work. These balcony details aren’t going to draw themselves.


55 posted on 07/31/2007 10:43:54 AM PDT by demshateGod
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To: razzle
Geez, if the creationists are so wacky, why not just ignore them.

Exactly. Why be frightened of the one goofy little museum on the planet that espouses a different view?

56 posted on 07/31/2007 11:16:04 AM PDT by Sloth (The GOP is to DemonRats in politics as Michael Jackson is to Jeffrey Dahmer in babysitting.)
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To: dwhole2th

Do you ever feel like you’re caught in some sort of Scopes Trial infinite-loop on these threads?


57 posted on 07/31/2007 11:22:57 AM PDT by mgstarr (KZ-6090 Smith W.)
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To: mgstarr

Yup! Makes me want to go beat my head against a post.

But didja ever notice how many of those people who reject science still want lots, if not most, of the wonderful things we have because of science? Like electricity and penicillin and computers to say nothing of genetic engineering which we can do because of our understanding of DNA which comes to us in large part because smart people study evolution?

Kinda cafeteria scientists.

Oh to hell with it!


58 posted on 07/31/2007 11:40:22 AM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: demshateGod

If evolution is a religion then I suppose the churches are university campuses. Or maybe just the chemistry and biological sciences buildings on campuses? Oh wait, we gotta include museums of natural history. And then there are the anthropology buildings and paleo.....oh hell....whata mess.

Now what do I do with the courses I used to teach, comparative anatomy, and histology and embryology? I guess was giving sermons instead of lectures.


59 posted on 07/31/2007 11:47:24 AM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th
Now what do I do with the courses I used to teach, comparative anatomy, and histology and embryology? I guess was giving sermons instead of lectures.

Yep, boy were you wrong.

Little did you know that flood geology and bronze age creation myths were where the truth lies.

I wonder if creationist chemistry can show me how to turn water into wine.

60 posted on 07/31/2007 12:02:23 PM PDT by GunRunner (Come on Fred, how long are you going to wait?)
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To: dwhole2th

Yeah, pretty much.


61 posted on 07/31/2007 12:03:40 PM PDT by demshateGod
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To: GunRunner

Ya know, I really think some creationist would try to develop a “scientific” proof for everything in the Bible.

These people just keep re-inventing the wheel over and over again.

For me the water into wine thing stands as a miracle and needs no further explanation, as does creation. It’s better for me to believe in the mystery than to flail about making up nonsensical pseudoscience.

God created the heavens and the Earth. Who gives a rats fanny how or in what time period. He did it the way he did it and that’s good enough for me.

Isn’t there some evidence that King David had the original pentateuch altered? Could that have happened?


62 posted on 07/31/2007 12:33:28 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th
God created the heavens and the Earth. Who gives a rats fanny how or in what time period.

You will find many here who care quite a bit. I've seen some freepers go as far as to say that if the literal Genesis is not the truth, then the Bible is a fraud and none of it is to be believed.

"Either its all literal, or none of it", as one creationist freeper put it.

These people have a lot more to lose in this argument than I do, which makes their motives suspect.

If evolution and an old Earth were proven wrong tomorrow, my worldview would not change much. However, disproving a literal Bible would send many here into a crisis of faith. More the reason to cast pejoratives on people who believe in evolution. Calling them monkey worshipers who bow to the Church of Darwin should stave off the creeping inevitability of facts for a few moments longer.

63 posted on 07/31/2007 1:01:47 PM PDT by GunRunner (Come on Fred, how long are you going to wait?)
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To: GunRunner

One huge problem is that they, creationists, state that people like me believe in evolution. Belief is for religion, but belief has no place in science.

I don’t believe in evolution. I understand evolution and I accept evolution as a theory and I appreciate the beauty of such an elegant system. And....I believe that God uses evolution as His mechanism for development of the universe.

I ain’t a monkey worshiper and I ain’t a Darwinist, I am a Christian and a scientist.

Like you I do not predicate my belief system on the absolute precise *words* of the Bible, especially the pentateuch. I think it’s a mysterious story that gives us a clue about the nature of God. That in no way diminishes my faith in God.


64 posted on 07/31/2007 1:34:24 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: demshateGod

Then science is evil, from Satan? All science or just some science?

Or do you mean that science is religion and lectures in science are sermons? Are all science lectures sermons?

Or are you saying that buildings where science is taught are churches? Maybe then science teachers and professors are priests?

And science texts are scripture? Then people who write science texts are divinely inspired and they write the word of Satan?

Do you REALLY believe that?


65 posted on 07/31/2007 2:11:48 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th

Science, as the observation of the natural world, is not of the devil. But false science, like evolution, was created by Satan to weaken people’s faith. It’s worked more than any other creation of his too. Those people propagating macro evolution and old earth theory, as fact, are doing Satan’s pleasure.


66 posted on 07/31/2007 2:20:15 PM PDT by demshateGod
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To: demshateGod

There are sure a lot of people who are wrong about science then, aren’t there!? Like most of the scientists in the world are wrong, right?

Because sciences like embryology and histology, anatomy, paleontology, archeology, geology, anthropology, chemistry, astronomy, physics, astrophysics, atomic physics, nuclear physics...are in one way or another tied to evolution and an old universe.

Just think, it’s amazing that so many scientists are so wrong and yet we have so many wonderful things in our lives because of those wrong scientists......kinda makes ya wonder how people doing the work of Satan can discover so many things that benefit mankind.

That’s quite a religion you’ve got there. Almost all the scientists in the history of the world are wrong. But you know the truth that all those people somehow missed.

Congratulations!!


67 posted on 07/31/2007 2:37:38 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th

“Just think, it’s amazing that so many scientists are so wrong and yet we have so many wonderful things in our lives because of those wrong scientists......kinda makes ya wonder how people doing the work of Satan can discover so many things that benefit mankind.”

So I’m wrong because I’m in the minority? And what does evolution have to do with discoveries that benefit mankind?


68 posted on 07/31/2007 3:29:33 PM PDT by demshateGod
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To: demshateGod
Those people propagating macro evolution and old earth theory, as fact, are doing Satan’s pleasure.

Nonsense.

Didn't you Bible literalists learn your lesson after persecuting Copernicus and Galileo?

I guess not. Thank God I live in an age where religious zealots like yourself don't hold the reins.

69 posted on 07/31/2007 3:31:13 PM PDT by GunRunner (Come on Fred, how long are you going to wait?)
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To: GunRunner

You mean it isn’t a geocentric universe after all?

:-)


70 posted on 07/31/2007 3:39:53 PM PDT by mgstarr (KZ-6090 Smith W.)
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To: demshateGod

Evolution accepts an old Earth as do all other mainstream sciences. The foundation of most of the scientific discoveries that have benefited modern man are therefore sciences that accept an old Earth.

You aren’t wrong because you are in the VAST minority. But you are bucking a very well accepted trend, to say the least.

And calling most of the scientists in the history of the world wrong and working for Satan is just plain silly. It’s hard for people to take you seriously when you sound so silly.

I mean compared to Newton, Galileo, Leonardo, Einstein, Fermi, Feynman.....


71 posted on 07/31/2007 3:43:30 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th

Issac Newton calculated the earth was created in 3988 bc (and will end by 2060 by the way). He was the greatest scientist of all time and was a young-earth creationist.


72 posted on 08/01/2007 5:14:54 AM PDT by demshateGod
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To: Sloth
question: “Why be frightened of the one goofy little museum on the planet that espouses a different view?”

answer: Because they are afraid the goofy museum happens to be right (or at least conforms to the evidence better than darwinism).

73 posted on 08/01/2007 6:42:29 AM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: demshateGod

Newton believed in many things that we know to be pretty far out. Astrology for example. And his religion was heretical especially since he was not a believer in the trinity as are most modern Christians.

It is clear that Newton rejected the Anglican church.

Newton was probably a millenialist.

Newton discovered scientific principles that are the foundation for modern physics.

And.....had Newton been able to know what modern physics tells us about the universe he could not have been a young Earth creationist. After all, he started the ball rolling toward what we now know about the age of the universe.

Do you think Ptolemy would have held onto his geocentric beliefs if he could know what we know now? Even the Catholic church gave up on geocentrism and they excommunicated Galileo over that issue. Newton could not have held onto his false beliefs either if he could have known what his science was leading to.

So do you accept Newton totally? Or do accept what is true and disregard the false?

Newton discovered the very principles that allow us to know the truth about the universe.


74 posted on 08/01/2007 7:11:41 AM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: razzle

Frightened is not the correct concept. The concept is that science must not be hijacked and changed to suit beliefs.

I am not afraid. You shouldn’t be afraid either. Scientists do not hold onto falsehood. Scientists are willing, in fact eager, to prove theories false. If it’s false we want to know that as soon as possible.

That’s why it’s never good enough to do science once. It has to be replicated by many other people at different locations over a long time before it is accepted as true.

Science never tries to defend it’s theories. It tries to find the truth regardless of where truth leads. Science defends truth, it doesn’t fear truth.

Science is dispassionate.


75 posted on 08/01/2007 7:32:55 AM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th
Oh, stop with the noble Science crap. Read my byline and understand that Science is being hijacked for various nefarious political purposes by the Libs. Just turn on Discovery or National Geographic channel and hear all about mankind causing all kinds of ills and how aborted fetuses will cure all disease, or how this or that monkey was our great ancestor.
76 posted on 08/01/2007 11:43:39 AM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: razzle
Just turn on Discovery or National Geographic channel and hear all about mankind causing all kinds of ills and how aborted fetuses will cure all disease, or how this or that monkey was our great ancestor.

Abortion and global warming are similar to evolution? I'm against embryonic stem cell research, however those embryos are hardly "aborted fetuses". Get your facts straight before trying to preach.

You are closer to the enviro wackos and the pro-aborts because you already have a set conclusion that you wish to make the facts conform to. Whereas they morph facts around their principles of socialism and abortion, you do the same for a literal Old Testament. That's not science; science exists independently from your dated creation myths.

77 posted on 08/01/2007 12:05:01 PM PDT by GunRunner (Come on Fred, how long are you going to wait?)
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To: razzle

The basis of scientific method is the elimination of bias.

You seem to not accept that fact, therefore you argue from a world view that excludes you from the scientific community.

It’s fine with me if you want to interpret the natural world, made by God, according to your biases.

But, there exists a worldwide community of scientists who are dedicated to discovering the true nature of the universe we live in. Even you are a recipient of benefits made possible because of that dedication.

I stand by my statement that science is dispassionate. Good science never attempts to mould the world into a preconceived view. That’s what creationists do to science. That’s why creation science is not good science. It comes at the process of finding truth with a preconceived notion of what truth ought to be, not with a mind open to whatever the truth will be.

When science proved that the solar system was not geocentric the Catholic church changed it’s dogma. That was a pretty smart thing to do, otherwise the Church would have had to maintain a position based in ignorance of the truth. That change did not undermine the fundamental belief system within the Church which is salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Maintaining a position against science does not improve on the fundamental message of Christianity. And looking to the Bible for scientific information does not improve the fundamental knowledge we have of the universe.


78 posted on 08/01/2007 12:47:13 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: razzle

The idea of a creation museum is exactly like what Dan Rather pulled when he said his news report on Bush was based on documents that were fake, but accurate.

Exactly the same thing. The creation museum is based on fake science. That doesn’t seem like a good way to lead people to the truth. In fact, it’s probably counter productive because people who understand science even a little bit will probably be pushed away from religion if they perceive that religion needs fake science to validate the message.

Better to leave religion in the faith department and leave science to real scientists.


79 posted on 08/01/2007 1:08:02 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th
You claim to be totally “scientific”, and totally objective; but all of you evos have already rejected the possibility of design, before the facts have been presented, and want to shut down anyone who wants to present the real facts - i.e. irreducible complexity and others contrary to darwin. I know some who believe in ID, do so for religious reasons, but ALL evos believe in darwinism for religious reasons - don’t kid yourself.
80 posted on 08/01/2007 2:13:36 PM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: razzle

In the pursuit of scientific truth one learns over a period of many years to apply strict self discipline in an approach to objectivity. It is a process that requires study and application of sound principles.

Calling scientists evos and darwinists reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of science.

Scientists do not hold such preconceptions. Scientists do not want to shut down anyone who wants to present the real facts. We welcome the real facts. But the facts must be presented in a way that conforms to the rules of science. Without that conformity there is only chaos. Your characterizations are simply ignorant, or delusional.


81 posted on 08/01/2007 2:26:00 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th

And another thing. I have never claimed to be totally anything.

I am a Christian, I am a scientist, I am a practitioner, and I suppose many other things.

When I am a scientist I try to be as objective as possible given the inherent fallibility of also being human. Nevertheless I make a sincere attempt.

In my life as a Christian I make every effort to cast off my pursuit of objective truth and accept on faith what Scripture offers.

As a practitioner I mix the two.


82 posted on 08/01/2007 2:33:20 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: dwhole2th
“Scientists do not hold such preconceptions.”
“But the facts must be presented in a way that conforms to the rules of science.”

Stop it, you are making me ill. Yes thats the way its supposed to be, but you will admit, you will never entertain the possibility that the universe and everything it it were designed. Your science is LIMITED to materialism (or naturalism). My science is NOT limited, I go with the facts; darwinism has been disproven, you just don’t know it or won’t face it. You are a religious nut.

83 posted on 08/01/2007 3:46:23 PM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: EveningStar

Get a spine!


84 posted on 08/01/2007 3:48:40 PM PDT by toddlintown (Six bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: dwhole2th
If you say you are a Christian, try reading The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel. He was also an atheist but came to God (and subsequently Christ) through science.
85 posted on 08/01/2007 3:50:40 PM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: razzle

I already accept that there was a Creator and He is the living God.

I came to Jesus as a child....when I was a child. I pursued science as an adult with an intact faith. Nothing I have ever pursued in science has detracted from my faith. To the contrary, my pursuit of science increases my faith.

I taught evolutionary subjects at a major university and that never diminished my faith that the universe was created by God.

A balanced approach seems to work for me. I revel in science and I am continually inspired by the Holy Spirit to seek deeper understanding of the truth of the universe.

I think that’s why God gave us a big brain, to solve the mysteries of the universe and give Him the glory.


86 posted on 08/01/2007 4:15:09 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: razzle

Why do you resort to name calling?


87 posted on 08/01/2007 4:53:28 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: razzle
Your science is LIMITED to materialism (or naturalism). My science is NOT limited, I go with the facts..

No, you make the facts up as you go along. I doubt you've ever picked up a science book or journal in your life.

Oh let me guess, the Bible is enough for you.

88 posted on 08/01/2007 5:04:33 PM PDT by GunRunner (Come on Fred, how long are you going to wait?)
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To: dwhole2th
“I already accept that there was a Creator”

Yet you still believe that humans are a big mistake (or as you darwinists like to say - random mutation) and that these mistakes lead to our free will and our soul?, and that our ancestors are chimps. All this despite scientific evidence (show me a real example of one species changing into another) to the contrary. And I don’t recall God saying that He created Man from a chimp.

No, I am not buying into your act, bro. I also hear the lib all the time talking about faith, patriotism and how tough they are - I don’t buy their act either.

89 posted on 08/02/2007 7:28:34 AM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: GunRunner
“you make the facts up as you go along”

Don’t believe me, just read something from one of your heroes - Gould or Dawkins, they are honest enough to admit what they are (materialists period). (talk about name calling - btw, I have 2 science masters degrees plus a BS in Chemistry)

90 posted on 08/02/2007 7:32:12 AM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: razzle
Because they are afraid the goofy museum happens to be right (or at least conforms to the evidence better than darwinism).

I have 2 science masters degrees plus a BS in Chemistry

You have 3 "science degrees", but you think a museum that teaches dinosaurs and people lived together, tyrannosaurs were once vegetarians, the development of complex chemicals and life is against the laws thermodynamics, mutations can't add information to a genome, a pair of kangaroos & koalas migrated thousands of miles to hop on (or off) Noah's ark, radioactive decay rates might change over time, etc., "happens to be right"?

Unfreakingbelievably hilarious!!*

*Assuming the degrees weren't mail ordered, or stolen from a psychiatrist's wall...

91 posted on 08/02/2007 9:43:49 AM PDT by ok_now ((Huh?))
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To: ok_now
“dinosaurs and people living together”; our great great uncle was bonzo the chimp.

the first seems a lot more plausible than the second (matter of fact everything (from the creation museum) you posted seems a lot more believable than darwinism). (p.s. read the 2nd law of thermodynamics, you really need a good review)

92 posted on 08/02/2007 10:43:35 AM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: razzle

Does your religion teach that salvation is only available for conservatives?

Do you really believe that only conservatives are patriotic?

Do you really believe that liberals are wimps?


93 posted on 08/02/2007 11:11:36 AM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: razzle

What are your MS degrees in? From what institution?


94 posted on 08/02/2007 11:14:13 AM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: EveningStar; gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; AndrewC; ..


You have been pinged because of your interest regarding news, debate and editorials pertaining to the Creation vs. Evolution debate - from the young-earth creationist perspective.
To to get on or off this list (currently the premier list for creation/evolution news!), freep-mail me:
Add me / Remove me

95 posted on 08/02/2007 12:39:21 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger ("Being normal is not neccessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.")
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To: razzle
“dinosaurs and people living together”; our great great uncle was bonzo the chimp.

the first seems a lot more plausible than the second (matter of fact everything (from the creation museum) you posted seems a lot more believable than darwinism). (p.s. read the 2nd law of thermodynamics, you really need a good review)

Wow. You don't even know what evolution is. Thanks for the comedy.

You don't even know what thermodynamics is, either, apparently. It's sadly disappointing someone with a supposed B.S. in chemistry doesn't understand a concept as simple as entropy transport across a system boundary. Anyone who passes Physics 101 should know better than to say something silly like "thermodynamics prevents complexity from arising in nature".

96 posted on 08/02/2007 12:52:35 PM PDT by ok_now ((Huh?))
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To: razzle

Never mind answering my questions.

I just read some of your past posts and I have you pretty well figured out.

I will not engage with you in further exchanges.


97 posted on 08/02/2007 1:17:56 PM PDT by dwhole2th (''God gets you to the plate, but once you're there, you're on your own". Ted Williams)
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To: brigadoon

It was in the days of Gallileo Too!


98 posted on 08/02/2007 1:19:27 PM PDT by JSDude1 (Republicans if the don't beware ARE the new WHIGS! (all empty hairpieces..) :).)
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To: razzle

becuase they know that Creation/ID has real Empirical support, their egos (world-view) just can’t hadle that, but look at the evidence objectively; The Bible is backed up by “Empirical”-(Real measurable) science, not fantasies, and not theories, but archeology and geology!


99 posted on 08/02/2007 1:21:52 PM PDT by JSDude1 (Republicans if the don't beware ARE the new WHIGS! (all empty hairpieces..) :).)
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To: dwhole2th

“Does your religion teach that salvation is only available for conservatives?

Do you really believe that only conservatives are patriotic?

Do you really believe that liberals are wimps?”

no, yes, yes


100 posted on 08/02/2007 1:24:19 PM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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