Skip to comments.Mitt unplugged
Posted on 08/04/2007 2:34:44 PM PDT by mmanager
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I tend to think that judging one's faith....is up to God.
But judging a church denomination..is good critical thinking.
Are we not supposed to make sure we are "on good ground"? Are we not supposed to test, and make sure what we are being taught is true?
Isn't that just good judgment?
Are we talking about the same American people that elected Clinton twice?
I, personally, will not be voting for someone in a cult for POTUS - regardless if the cult is mormonism, jehovahs witness, Hare Krishna, etc. Thats pretty simple. No one in a cult earns my vote for POTUS. My call.
Uh huh. So, you're like the people who could never vote for John or Robert Kennedy -- not because of their policies, but because they had some twisted idea that the United States would be run by remote control from the Vatican.
Brilliant. But like you finally admitted, that's YOUR call. You don't and can't speak for "The American People." Don't project your ignorance and bigotry on the rest of us.
And, for the record, I am NOT a member of the LDS church.
Thanks for your thoughtful post (about debunking and the U.S. Supreme Court). Good one.
“Are we talking about the same American people that elected Clinton twice?”
EXACTLY! When he spoke, he lied so well that people believed
he meant what he said. Mitt risks that quality of believability.
“Uh huh. So, you’re like the people who could never vote for John or Robert Kennedy — not because of their policies, but because they had some twisted idea that the United States would be run by remote control from the Vatican.”
No, he wasn’t a cultist.
“You don’t and can’t speak for “The American People.” Don’t project your ignorance and bigotry on the rest of us. “
Never said I did. Thanks for revealing your heart to all
who read. You come across as an angry cultist.
Bigotry is an interesting word. I do believe that my
beliefs are better than other groups.
I’m a conservative bigot and intolerant of voting for liberals.
I’m a pro-life bigot and intolerant of those who would
slaughter innocent children.
I’m also bigoted towards those in cults when it comes to
voting for POTUS.
I am also bigoted toward other beliefs I see as superior -
fiscal conservative policies, low taxes, equal opportunity -
>>Are we not supposed to make sure we are “on good ground”? Are we not supposed to test, and make sure what we are being taught is true?
Isn’t that just good judgment?<<
Of course. And I do that. That’s why I’m not a Mormon and not a Catholic. But this debate is about judging whether people who say they are Christians and who ask forgiveness in Jesus’ name are really Christians and then translating that into a political litmus test. At that point I think we have crossed over.
We are not punished because Adam sinned but we sin because Adam sinned.
The critical question is not the creed of the LDS Church, but does the Church accept the three historic creeds of the Christian church, does it accept what CS Lewis described as Mere Christianity.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adams transgression.
The critical point is that we are not punished for Adam’s sin but we sin because Adam sinned. No mater how hard we try, we cannot escape the consequences of Adam’s act.
Adam’s sin (and Eve’s) was the event that separated God from man and allowed sin into the world. Human beings - through pride and folly - chose the to live as if we did not need God.
We cannot perfect ourselves. The only atonement for our sin - the only way “back” to God - is the redeeming death and resurrection of Jesus, who is the Lamb of God and the Second Person of the Trinity.
Or WHAT will happen???
I told you in Post #1124 and if you wanted to know more to search the scriptures
You know quite well that's it's not IN the 'scriptures', but interpolated from many 'sources'.
You have your answer now in post #398 and also post #399
I have an awful lot of text, but nothing that can really be called an answer.
I can post A LOT OF TEXT that will show EXACTLY where the Temple Rites came from, but I don't think you really want THAT to happen.
He is the Son of God. He came to earth from heaven and gave his perfect human life as a ransom sacrifice. His death and resurrection made salvation to eternal life possible for those exercising faith in him. He is now ruling as King of God's heavenly Kingdom, which will soon bring peace to the entire earth. Jesus never claimed equality with God and thus is not part of a Trinity.John 3:16; 14:28; Revelation 11:15.
Who Is Jesus Christ?
|Why is Jesus called God's "firstborn" Son? (1)|
|Why is he called "the Word"? (1)|
|Why did Jesus come to earth as a man? (2-4)|
|Why did he perform miracles? (5)|
|What will Jesus do in the near future? (6)|
1. Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he came to earth. He was God's first creation, and so he is called the "firstborn" Son of God. (; ) Jesus is the only Son that God created by himself. Jehovah used the prehuman Jesus as his "master worker" in creating all other things in heaven and on earth. (; ) God also used him as His chief spokesman. That is why Jesus is called "the Word."; .
2. God sent His Son to the earth by transferring his life to the womb of Mary. So Jesus did not have a human father. That is why he did not inherit any sin or imperfection. God sent Jesus to earth for three reasons: (1) To teach us the truth about God (), (2) to maintain perfect integrity, providing a model for us to follow (), and (3) to sacrifice his life to set us free from sin and death. Why was this needed?.
3. By disobeying God's command, the first man, Adam, committed what the Bible calls "sin." So God sentenced him to death. () He no longer measured up to God's standards, so he was not perfect anymore. Slowly he grew old and died. Adam passed on sin to all his children. That is why we also grow old, get sick, and die. How could mankind be saved?; .
4. Jesus was a perfect human just like Adam. Unlike Adam, though, Jesus was perfectly obedient to God under even the greatest test. He could therefore sacrifice his perfect human life to pay for Adam's sin. This is what the Bible refers to as the "ransom." Adam's children could thus be released from condemnation to death. All who put their faith in Jesus can have their sins forgiven and receive everlasting life.; ; .
5. When on earth Jesus cured the sick, fed the hungry, and calmed storms. He even raised the dead. Why did he perform miracles? (1) He felt pity for people who were suffering, and he wanted to help them. (2) His miracles proved that he was God's Son. (3) They showed what he will do for obedient mankind when he rules as King over the earth.; ; .
6. Jesus died and was resurrected by God as a spirit creature, and he returned to heaven. () Since then, God has made him a King. Soon Jesus will remove all wickedness and suffering from this earth.; .
I think the 'debunked' means that when GOD gave the Mormons polygamy, it was to be for a LONG time - like FOREVER!
When their leaders CHOOSE to go along with the Supremely Powerful United States Government, instead of waiting on the ALMIGHTY to smite the US officials; it showed how much they REALLY thought their GOD was behind them!
Evidently you and I read different posts!
Your answers are Yes and Yes.
The trouble is; that is considered by them to be Christianity 101.
There is SO much more TRUTH to be found in the LDS organization.
SO much more rewards for good behavior,
SO much more Heavenly Levels for faithful members.
I don't know if polygamy is commanded by God in the Mormon religion or not, but I do know they are required to follow the laws of the land except where it conflicts with a commandment from God. So, if it was a commandment, then they have some splainin' to do. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't think there would be an issue.
My pastor - Michael Youssef of Church of the Apostles in Atlanta - has a theory about cults: they always say the Bible plus something else. Currently, he’s preaching a series of sermons on discernment. I suggest you go to Apostles.org and download the sermons.
Repeat what you just said.
I pray for you. The salvation of Christ needs no silk under-garments for protection.
I am sorry for journey in life, and your after-life.
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
16, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 714, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 1520, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 2125, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 2627, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 2839, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 4047, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 4850, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 5157, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 5866, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?
11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?
12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandmentthat no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.
13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto themYe shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depthsthen shall it be written in the Lambs book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.
24 This is eternal livesto know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.
29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loinsfrom whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Josephwhich were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.
31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.
36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill . Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness .
37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
39 Davids wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.
41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.
And THIS is how Everlasting (ahem) was ended....
To Whom It May Concern:
Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy
I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.
One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.
There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:
I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.
Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.
"Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith."I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. And if it isn't true, then I have still lived a good life. And Christ will take that into account. :)
You have yet to answer my question, which should be easy to answer: What exactly is it that YOU fear might happen if this country elects a Mormon President? Can YOU even articulate it?
I never once said I was afraid that something would
happen to the country if mitt were elected... so to
insist that I answer your question is silly.
I am simply not voting for mitt because:
1. He has the Rhino Virus
2. Favorable toward gay rights
3. Conversion of convenience to the Pro-life position
4. In a cult and thinks he will be a god of his own planet
5. Is a businessman and not suited to the Big Chair