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Mitt unplugged
Politico ^ | August 04, 2007 | Jonathan Martin

Posted on 08/04/2007 2:34:44 PM PDT by mmanager

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To: MEGoody
It’s a strange religion that was debunked years ago when the U.S. Supreme Court outlawed polygamy.

I think the 'debunked' means that when GOD gave the Mormons polygamy, it was to be for a LONG time - like FOREVER!

When their leaders CHOOSE to go along with the Supremely Powerful United States Government, instead of waiting on the ALMIGHTY to smite the US officials; it showed how much they REALLY thought their GOD was behind them!

451 posted on 08/08/2007 12:51:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Saundra Duffy
Thanks for your thoughtful post (about debunking and the U.S. Supreme Court). Good one.

Evidently you and I read different posts!

452 posted on 08/08/2007 12:52:30 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: quadrant
The critical question is not the creed of the LDS Church, but does the Church accept the three historic creeds of the Christian church, does it accept what CS Lewis described as Mere Christianity.

Your answers are Yes and Yes.

The trouble is; that is considered by them to be Christianity 101.

There is SO much more TRUTH to be found in the LDS organization.

SO much more rewards for good behavior,

SO much more Heavenly Levels for faithful members.

453 posted on 08/08/2007 12:56:00 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
I think the 'debunked' means that when GOD gave the Mormons polygamy, it was to be for a LONG time - like FOREVER!

I don't know if polygamy is commanded by God in the Mormon religion or not, but I do know they are required to follow the laws of the land except where it conflicts with a commandment from God. So, if it was a commandment, then they have some splainin' to do. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't think there would be an issue.

454 posted on 08/08/2007 2:13:00 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Elsie
In what way is the Bible lacking that additions are needed?
Do you believe that an Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent God would inspire men to record His testimony and will in such a way that anything would be lacking?

My pastor - Michael Youssef of Church of the Apostles in Atlanta - has a theory about cults: they always say the Bible plus something else. Currently, he’s preaching a series of sermons on discernment. I suggest you go to Apostles.org and download the sermons.

455 posted on 08/08/2007 3:09:48 PM PDT by quadrant
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To: Utah Girl

Repeat what you just said.

I pray for you. The salvation of Christ needs no silk under-garments for protection.

I am sorry for journey in life, and your after-life.


456 posted on 08/08/2007 6:59:03 PM PDT by mmanager (Fred instead of Purebred, Crossbred and the Hothead)
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To: MEGoody
 
I don't know if polygamy is commanded by God in the Mormon religion or not, but I do know they are required to follow the laws of the land except where it conflicts with a commandment from God.
 
Read from the LDS organizations OWN documents:  (pictures by me)

 
 
 

   <--- THIS is how the "Everlasting Ordinance" came into being...
 
 

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

SECTION 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501—507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

 1—6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7—14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15—20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21—25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26—27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28—39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40—47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48—50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51—57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58—66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 

   

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines —

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent.  I am he.  Receive ye, therefore,  my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill . Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness .

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

    



 
And THIS is how Everlasting (ahem) was ended....
 
 
 
OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.


EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
 


So much for an 'Everlasting Covenant' that thundered out of Heaven!!!
 
Well; it DID last about 47 years!

457 posted on 08/09/2007 4:50:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: mmanager
I'm quite happy in my life. :) Like President Gordon B Hinckley said,
"Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith."
I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. And if it isn't true, then I have still lived a good life. And Christ will take that into account. :)
458 posted on 08/09/2007 3:13:22 PM PDT by Utah Girl
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I’m also bigoted towards those in cults when it comes to voting for POTUS.

You have yet to answer my question, which should be easy to answer: What exactly is it that YOU fear might happen if this country elects a Mormon President? Can YOU even articulate it?

459 posted on 08/10/2007 12:53:33 AM PDT by L.N. Smithee (Has George W. Bush been taking Carter's Little Pills?)
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To: L.N. Smithee

smithee,

I never once said I was afraid that something would
happen to the country if mitt were elected... so to
insist that I answer your question is silly.

I am simply not voting for mitt because:

1. He has the Rhino Virus
2. Favorable toward gay rights
3. Conversion of convenience to the Pro-life position
4. In a cult and thinks he will be a god of his own planet
5. Is a businessman and not suited to the Big Chair

best,
ampu


460 posted on 08/10/2007 1:48:36 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: colorcountry
Color, I wasn’t admonishing you to pray, I’m sorry if I offended you. I was leaving the forum for a few days and those were my parting words as part of this horrible tragedy. You were simply the last person I posted to. I meant no offense. Thank you for your prayers in this trying time.
461 posted on 08/11/2007 4:48:18 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: restornu; colorcountry

Thank you for understanding what I meant. I can see how Color misread it though, so no worries.


462 posted on 08/11/2007 4:50:56 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: nmh
I won’t vote for Mitt because he is a Mormon.

You weren't very intelligently designed.

There are over 1300 religious denominations in America. Why don't you tell us your religious test so we know who can and can't be president.

463 posted on 08/11/2007 4:51:45 PM PDT by JCEccles
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To: Elsie

I fear for them as well. I’ll be going back up there tommorow afternoon for another 4 days. It will be a long time before they get them out. The families are going through hell right now.

The helper museum is very cool, have been there a few times. Thanks.


464 posted on 08/11/2007 4:56:54 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: Elsie
Where did the LDS organization get the AUTHORITY to do our Temple Rites?

Elsie, found this for ya: The striking resemblance between the temple endowment and the early Christian rite of initiation is strong evidence that Joseph Smith did indeed restore the original ancient temple rites.

The ancient Christian initiation rite appears to have been a conflation of the temple endowment with the ordinance of baptism. Non-members were not permitted to view the rite, and in most cases it was not administered to a person until he or she had been a believer for at least one year. The rite was sometimes referred to as “the mystery,” and the things involved therein were on occasion called “the mysteries.”

During the rite of initiation, the candidate could be taught certain “higher teachings” which were reserved only for members who were deemed ready and worthy to receive them.

Extra-scriptural higher teachings are mentioned by several early Christian bishops and apologists. For example, Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 150-215), a prominent theologian in the early church and head of the Christian academy in Alexandria, stated that these higher teachings were not included in Christ’s public preaching but were transmitted UNWRITTEN by the apostles and were given only to church members who were qualified to receive them (MaGill 47). Clement declared that these sacred teachings were the key to entering into the “highest sphere” of heaven (MaGill 47).

The rite of initiation also included the administering of sacred signs and tokens, Garden-of-Eden scenes in the background, the rebuking of Satan with upraised arm, the wearing of sacred white clothing (some of which had markings identical to those on LDS temple garments), and the anointing of various parts of the body with oil.

Of course, the sacred nature of the Mormon temple prevents me from explaining the significance of these items in relation to the endowment. However, suffice it to say that any Latter-day Saint who has been to the temple will immediately see the significance of these things.

For those who would like to learn more about the early Christian rite of initiation and the extra-scriptural higher teachings which accompanied it, I would suggest they consult the research that has been done on this subject by Seaich (1983:56-75; 1984), Stephen E. Robinson (96-103), Hugh Nibley, Blake Ostler, William Hamblin, Roger J. Adams, and Darrick Evenson (71-101).

465 posted on 08/11/2007 5:04:10 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: sevenbak

Oops, forgot to post the link

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id107.htm


466 posted on 08/11/2007 5:10:29 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: Spiff

“Looks like the bigots have found this thread and are doing their level best to muck it up with their lies, smears, and nasty religious intolerance”

If the religious bigots try too hard to discredit Mitt, they might succeed in attracting the more traditional Democrats, who in turn might vote for Mitt out of sympathy because it might become the impression that Mitt is being discriminated against. You never know, it could work to his advantage. All works to the good of those who love the Lord. Reagan attracted the working class democrats and Mitt might too over this very issue, if it’s God’s will.


467 posted on 08/11/2007 5:10:39 PM PDT by rodeo-mamma
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To: Spiff

I don’t think that anyone who speaks in tongues has the right to get testy with the Mormon religion, because the way I see it, tongue speakers always have to do lotts of justifying to make it seem like their practice is mainstream. It certainly isn’t a given that speaking in tongues is a real form of worship, it is very debate-able. It’s not a given at all that this is a real form of worship. Actually, I think the pracitice is disengenous, but I figure who is perfect anyway?


468 posted on 08/11/2007 5:19:37 PM PDT by rodeo-mamma
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To: mmanager; Utah Girl

Disingenuous of you mmanager

You did not really want to know the answer to your question all you wanted to do is set up an LDS inorder to take your cheap shots!


469 posted on 08/11/2007 5:19:45 PM PDT by restornu (Teach them correct principals and let them govern themselves ~ Joseph Smith)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
5. Is a businessman and not suited to the Big Chair.

So a businessman with an MBA and a law degree is "not suited" for the big chair? Then who is, Hitlery or Obama or an actor/former Senator? Just who? As for #s 1-4, you are wrong again.

470 posted on 08/11/2007 5:20:37 PM PDT by Paulus Invictus
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To: greyfoxx39

Bush has handled rude people very well and so would Mitt.


471 posted on 08/11/2007 5:21:48 PM PDT by Paulus Invictus
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To: restornu

Just like the missionarys. Go knock on another door.


472 posted on 08/11/2007 5:37:00 PM PDT by mmanager (Fred instead of Purebred, Crossbred and the Hothead)
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To: mmanager
Just like the missionarys. Go knock on another door.

Oh please by now everyone knows who they are and their mission they don't hide it they wear name tags!

473 posted on 08/11/2007 6:06:41 PM PDT by restornu (Teach them correct principals and let them govern themselves ~ Joseph Smith)
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Gov Mitt Romney won the 2007 Ames straw poll, receiving 4516 votes, or 31%.

In a surprise, Gov. Mike Huckabee finished second with 2587 votes at 18.1%

11. John Cox with 41 votes.
10. John McCain with 101 votes.
9. Duncan Hunter with 174 votes.
8. Rudy Giuliani with 183 votes.
7. Fred Thomson with 231 votes.
6. Tommy Thompson, 1,009 votes, 7.3%
5. Ron Paul with 1305 votes, and 9.1%
4. Tom Tancredo with 1961 votes, 13.7%.
3. Sen. Sam Brownback with 2192 votes and 15.3%

Iowa state auditor David Vaudt unofficially certified the results.

14,203 ballots were cast.


474 posted on 08/11/2007 6:50:20 PM PDT by restornu (Teach them correct principals and let them govern themselves ~ Joseph Smith)
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To: Paulus Invictus

PI,
Thank you for your opinion. I disagree.

The government is not a business - and not the place
for business CEOs. Different dynamics and skills needed.
An MBA in government is not the most desirable training
to have (yes, I know GW has one).

As to the other items, we’ll have to disagree.

best,
ampu


475 posted on 08/11/2007 7:00:29 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

I disagree. The government is a business, the business of the people. It’s product is to protect the common welfare, provide liberties to all men, and protect this great nation using it’s great people.

What makes Mitt even more effective, is that besides managing companies and people, he has managed government as well. Only a handful of POTUS has ever been elected that were not former Governors. I hate to break it to you, but Mitt is right up there in qualifications.


476 posted on 08/12/2007 1:59:11 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: sevenbak

seven,
where I disagree with you is that the government may
euphemistically be referred to as the “business of the
people”, in reality, it is no kind of business at all.

Mitt certainly has been a governor of a state, a fertile
ground for POTUS, historically.

It remains to see how being a member of a cult will
affect turnout for him, should he win the primary.

Will those 30-61% of Americans in an earlier poll now
act to get rid of the Hildabeast?? And what percentage
of those 30-61% are never voting for a Republican anyway?
No one knows yet.

best,
ampu


477 posted on 08/12/2007 2:29:20 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Let’s review:

aMorePerfectUnion: But until Mitt talks with the American people about his basic beliefs and convinces them that even though he is in a fringe religious group (numerically), that he is still normal (sic).

L.N. Smithee: So let me ask YOU: What exactly is it that YOU fear might happen if this country elects a Mormon President? Can YOU even articulate it? Don't chicken out.

aMPU: I, personally, will not be voting for someone in a cult for POTUS - regardless if the cult is mormonism, jehovah’s witness, Hare Krishna, etc. That’s pretty simple.

LNS: So, you're like the people who could never vote for John or Robert Kennedy -- not because of their policies, but because they had some twisted idea that the United States would be run by remote control from the Vatican…You don’t and can’t speak for “The American People.” Don’t project your ignorance and bigotry on the rest of us.

aMPU: [JFK] wasn’t a cultist…Bigotry is an interesting word. I do believe that my beliefs are better than other groups…I’m also bigoted towards those in cults when it comes to voting for POTUS.

LNS: You have yet to answer my question, which should be easy to answer: What exactly is it that YOU fear might happen if this country elects a Mormon President? Can YOU even articulate it?


At this point, you disingenuously change my question. I didn’t specify Romney, I wrote “a Mormon President.” You make reference to “mitt” specifically:

aMPU: I never once said I was afraid that something would happen to the country if mitt were elected... so to insist that I answer your question is silly.

I am simply not voting for mitt because:

1. He has the Rhino Virus
2. Favorable toward gay rights
3. Conversion of convenience to the Pro-life position
4. In a cult and thinks he will be a god of his own planet
5. Is a businessman and not suited to the Big Chair


Let's suppose that everything you wanted in a Presidential candidate was in place, except that said person was a Mormon. You wouldn't vote for that person. Why not? You still haven’t yet articulated why you couldn’t besides the equivalent of “just because.”

478 posted on 08/12/2007 6:56:00 PM PDT by L.N. Smithee (Kathy Boyda's brain: "Too much good news...might mean progress...MUST LEAVE BEFORE HEAD EXPLODES!")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Which is it? Is it about his extensive executive and business experience that you just said was not a qualifying trait, or is it now about his Mormonism? Do try to be clearer in your reasons not to support Mitt. ;-)
479 posted on 08/12/2007 10:40:16 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: L.N. Smithee

Miss Smithee,

“At this point, you disingenuously change my question.”

Why is it that the first thing a mormon does is accuse
someone they disagree with of lying and distorting the
truth? Do they teach that as a tactic?

I assume you have not participated in the Mitt Romney/
POTUS discussions that have taken place over the past
5 months here at FR? If you had, you would have the
answer to your question, because it’s been discussed
endlessly. To give you a head start, it had nothing
to do with “What ...YOU fear might happen if this country elects a Mormon President” - as you phrased it.

I do not “owe” you an answer. I’ve been clear that I
will not vote for any cultist for POTUS - including
someone trapped in the cult of mormonism... whether it
is mitt or another person trapped in mormonism.

best,
ampu


480 posted on 08/13/2007 7:14:17 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Why is it that the first thing a mormon does is accuse someone they disagree with of lying and distorting the truth? Do they teach that as a tactic?

1. I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a Mormon.
2. I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a "Miss."
3. I didn't accuse you of lying or distorting the truth. I did say you disingenuously changed my question from being one about a hypothetical Mormon Presidential candidate into one specifically about Mitt Romney because that's exactly what you did.
4. I have indeed engaged in discussions about Romney and the issue of his faith many times. Most of the Romneyphobes don't like him because they think he's a RINO, but few have said they couldn't never vote for him solely because he's in the LDS Church. The ones that I have seen say that -- like you -- can't articulate a reason why they couldn't.

481 posted on 08/14/2007 1:15:19 AM PDT by L.N. Smithee (Kathy Boyda's brain: "Too much good news...might mean progress...MUST LEAVE BEFORE HEAD EXPLODES!")
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To: sevenbak
During the rite of initiation, the candidate could be taught certain “higher teachings” which were reserved only for members who were deemed ready and worthy to receive them.

There goes that 'no respecter of persons' thing!


Extra-scriptural higher teachings are mentioned by several early Christian bishops and apologists. For example, Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 150-215), a prominent theologian in the early church and head of the Christian academy in Alexandria, stated that these higher teachings were not included in Christ’s public preaching but were transmitted UNWRITTEN by the apostles and were given only to church members who were qualified to receive them (MaGill 47). Clement declared that these sacred teachings were the key to entering into the “highest sphere” of heaven (MaGill 47).

Like the KFD, this reference is NOT scripture!

It has NEVER been practiced by the Church!

482 posted on 08/14/2007 6:53:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: L.N. Smithee

Mr./Ms. Smithee,

I was not disingenuous in my response to you.
I was writing about Mitt.

As to participating in the Mitt/Mormonism threads,
I’ve explained it over and over and over for 5 months.

For your benefit and for the hundredth time... I will not
vote to raise a cultist to the most powerful office in
the land. The reason is that I do not want to contribute
to lending legitimacy to a cult. Nor do I wish to contribute
to leading people to a Christless eternity by giving them
the impression through that elevated cultist that his or
her false religion is legitimate. I don’t know how to be
any more clear for you. That’s it.

Even if Mitt were not a Rhino. If he were not friendly
toward gay unions. If he were not a man who seemingly
violated his own standards by not speaking out about
Marriott porn. If he were actually a conservative and
not having POTUS conversions about prolife issues. I would
still not vote for him strictly because he is a member
of a cult.

best,
ampu


483 posted on 08/14/2007 7:03:06 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Elsie
LOL! You spent the majority of this thread, upwards of a couple dozen posts asking where it’s written that we get the temple ceremony from. I post an early Christian theologian, Clement of Alexandria, who verifies that the higher mysteries were NOT written down as scriptural, but kept hidden from the uninitiated public, and you response is that you don't’ accept it because it’s not scripture.

We, sir, are at a very funny impasse.

Good morning! You finally have your answer, but I expect you to keep asking the question. Don't expect another answer.

484 posted on 08/14/2007 7:10:33 AM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: sevenbak
Impasse indeed!
 
We have Protestants pointing to what you folks claim is NOT scripture: the KFD, and saying it's what YOU believe and you say it's not.
 

And here you want to say something that is not Protestant (or Catholic) scripture and say that where YOUR Temple rites came from!
 
 
 
 
 
I can only stand with these fellows:
 
 
 1 Corinthians 4:6
   Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
 
 
2 Corinthians 4:2
  Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
 
 
 Revelation 2:24-25
 24.  Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you):
 25.  Only hold on to what you have until I come.
 
 
 
485 posted on 08/14/2007 1:41:42 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: sevenbak
I post an early Christian theologian, Clement of Alexandria, who verifies that the higher mysteries were NOT written down as scriptural, but kept hidden from the uninitiated public, and you response is that you don't’ accept it because it’s not scripture.

He 'verified' nothing; merely made a statement. No one else seems to have had this viewpoint.

486 posted on 08/14/2007 1:43:14 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
LOL. I didn’t say that the rites come from a 2nd century Christian theologian, I said that he referenced them not being written in cannon, but still passed unwritten among the faithful.

Let me share one of many biblical references with you, since that is apparently what you want to hear.

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Now, besides the secrets being revealed to His prophets, it's important to remember which religion has a living prophet and which has no secrets revealed because they have no prophet.

How on earth would you know what secrets God has to reveal to His prophets when you refuse to believe in them, and mock them?

487 posted on 08/14/2007 5:27:21 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: Elsie
Yes, I did say verify, because secrets and mysteries are held back all throughout the scriptures.

And plenty held this viewpoint...

Deut. 29: 29 secret things belong unto the Lord.
Ps. 25: 14 secret of the Lord is with them that fear him.
Dan. 2: 28 God in heaven that revealeth secrets.
Matt. 13: 11 (Mark 4: 11; Luke 8: 10) given unto you to know the mysteries.
Rom. 11: 25 I would not . . . that ye should be ignorant of this mystery.
Rom. 16: 25 according to the revelation of the mystery.
1 Cor. 2: 7 we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery.
1 Cor. 4: 1 ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
1 Cor. 13: 2 understand all mysteries . . . and have not charity.
1 Cor. 14: 2 in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Cor. 15: 51 I shew you a mystery.
Eph. 1: 9 made known unto us the mystery of his will.
Eph. 3: 3 by revelation he made known unto me the mystery.
Eph. 3: 9 make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery.
Eph. 5: 32 a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ.
Eph. 6: 19 make known the mystery of the gospel.
Col. 1: 26 mystery which hath been hid from ages.
1 Tim. 3: 16 (1 Tim. 3: 9) great is the mystery of godliness.
Rev. 10: 7 mystery of God should be finished.

488 posted on 08/14/2007 5:47:06 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: sevenbak

seven,
you are back to your modus operandi, finding words here
and there in order to supposedly support mormonism.

I suggest you begin a program of Bible Study like this...

Why don’t you start with creating an outline of the Book of
John - determine its theme, major divisions, history, geography,
figures of speech, and then how it fits into the prophecies
of the Old and New Testaments. If you do this, you will
quickly find that the beliefs you are putting forth here
are foreign to the Bible. Have you ever done this Seven?

That way you would have some idea of how it fits together
and what it teaches. It would be a good starting point
for you.

best,
ampu


489 posted on 08/14/2007 8:01:59 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
ampu, firstly, you’ve posted this advice about John now 3 times. I’ve responded. Please don’t cross over threads, it’s called spam.

Secondly, are you familiar with the Topical Guide to the LDS scriptures? It’s not a word based search, it’s a topic search. You are certainly quick to Judge. Did you read any of the references at all?

Let’s take a couple for example, and fill in the rest of the reference...

Dan 2: 28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

Col. 1: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

490 posted on 08/15/2007 8:58:37 AM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
For your benefit and for the hundredth time...

And in the first time in this thread...

I will not vote to raise a cultist to the most powerful office in the land. The reason is that I do not want to contribute to lending legitimacy to a cult.

So you think that a vote for Romney is a vote for Mormonism. Finally, a straight answer! How ironic that someone who criticizes Romney about not being straightforward about his beliefs had so much difficulty expressing his own.

Nor do I wish to contribute to leading people to a Christless eternity by giving them the impression through that elevated cultist that his or her false religion is legitimate. I don’t know how to be any more clear for you. That’s it.

Regarding your "Christless eternity" reference...does that mean you would never vote for a religious Jew either?

491 posted on 08/18/2007 9:23:36 PM PDT by L.N. Smithee (Kathy Boyda's brain: "Too much good news...might mean progress...MUST LEAVE BEFORE HEAD EXPLODES!")
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To: L.N. Smithee

LN,

You are full of bile FRiend.

But to answer your question, I would vote for
a Jew. Thanks for asking. I would not vote for
someone in a cult, like Mitt, who is caught in
mormonism... which perhaps, is true of you too.

I see you’ve not been on the Mitt threads. I have stated
my belief over and over.

best,
ampu


492 posted on 08/19/2007 6:07:04 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
You are full of bile FRiend. But to answer your question, I would vote for a Jew. Thanks for asking.

And a sarcastic "You're welcome," "FRiend."

I'm full of bile? Hey, I'm not the one that said should such a dilemma ever occur, not "promoting" Mormonism would trump supporting the perfect Presidential candidate. I'm not the one who's pretending he thinks Mitt Romney ought to "[talk] with the American people about his basic beliefs and [convince] them that even though he is in a fringe religious group (numerically), that he is still normal" when in fact, you don't think he should be President regardless of how "normal" he proved himself to be.

Come on, pal -- after saying you didn't want your vote "to contribute to leading people to a Christless eternity" by voting for someone who practices false Christianity, did you really think you were going to slide away without answering as to whether that standard applied to a candidate who doesn't even believe Christ was Messiah?

493 posted on 08/20/2007 12:48:39 AM PDT by L.N. Smithee (Kathy Boyda's brain: "Too much good news...might mean progress...MUST LEAVE BEFORE HEAD EXPLODES!")
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