More like the late Roman Republic. IMO.
We have yet to "cross the Rubicon".
Posted on 08/05/2007 8:43:29 AM PDT by Dick Bachert
How the U.S. can avoid its own version of the fall of the Roman empire
That is, are we Americans, citizens of the mightiest empire the world has known since the days of the Caesars, living in the last days of our civilization? Is the United States, like the Western Roman Empire in the fifth century, doomed to collapse from its own decadence? Or can we avoid Rome's fate?
(Excerpt) Read more at dallasnews.com ...
Join me in praying that we are NOT a modern Rome. And pray that modern technology has not permitted us to compress their 2,000 year slide into 300 but will provide the means by which we can halt it.
The United States is going to eventually break up, that is an inevitability because it has never been a nation in the true sense of the word. It’s actually been more like 9 nations contained within national borders which paid little to no matter to arbitrarily set state borders.
A secular nation ought not decline into inhumanity, but it always does.
If there is a historical parallel to America’s situation today, it is more likely Rome in the 1st Century B.C., during which their ancient Republic gave over to Caesarism and its successor, Imperialism.
“What does this have to do with immigration? Fredo Arias-King, foreign policy adviser to former Mexican president Vicente Fox, wrote last year of a visit he and a delegation made to Washington in 2000. They met with 80 congressional lawmakers, nearly all of whom – Republicans and Democrats – openly welcomed immigration because, in his view, they saw Mexicans as potential dependents on the state and therefore loyal voters. The advance into the U.S. of the client-patron model of governance, which has helped stagnate Mexico, bothered Mr. Arias-King greatly.”
The problem is the human heart. Sir Tyler nailed it when, over 200 years ago, he wrote:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can exist only until voters discover that they can vote themselves largesses from the public treasury. From that time on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.IMHO, we are in the "from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency" stage. Much of the Katrina mess was caused by apathy. And look at all the government entitlement programs creating dependency (being a retired Soc Sec recipient, can I still complain? :). And yet Congress is raring to go to add more (DREAM act, SCHIP, etc.)."The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
Yep, usual bs
Mexican criminals have seized portions of the United States southern border and conduct their criminals activities with impunity.
Abortion is happening in every nation so does that mean the world is doomed??? First off, we have decreased the number of abortions (significatnly) now that the Baby Boomers can’t have children any more so the United States is on the rise again!!!
Methinks you’d better go back and read more history — especially OURS!
“Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic but will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path to destruction.” T. Jefferson
“At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic giant to step the ocean and crush us at one blow Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years.
“At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us; it cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.” Abraham Lincoln, 1837 (NOT one of my favorite figures but he got THIS one right.)
Both these men knew history and UNDERSTOOD the grave perils of the national arrogance that doomed other nations — and which they both knew could (would?) beset America.
“Stop treating government as a necessary evil.” This is a solution? I would say stop treating government as a personal fiefdom.
Uncontrolled immigration. This is a key to Rome’s collapse. The Goths were allowed into the Empire as manual laborers. They killed Emperor Valens in battle at Adrianople in 378 A.D. and sacked Rome in 410 A.D.
The United States is not an empire. We are more akin to Republican Rome. We should look at why Republican Rome fell. Most of these historians of antiquity were British. They relate more to the Empire. Personal corruption started with absolutism. Read Suetonius’ The Twelve Caesars.
Stick with St. John the Devine for this kind of stuff.
The nature of empire is far more politically correct today than in ages past.
We have US military scattered all over the bloody globe, making it is more de facto than de jure just in case we DO have to move to the level of de jure should the need arise.
A good a summation as any. The inevitable decline of a human ‘tribe’. We are predators and territorial animals by nature. Once we have attained territory and sufficient means to prosper we lose purpose. Our declining birth rate supports your case - “”from apathy to dependency””.
Our form of socialism has removed the need for parental importance from the equation. Once born, children are effectively wards of the State. With Western technology sperm and egg donation we are almost at the point of biological redundancy.
Reducing the number of alive unborn children slaughtered for the utility of the evil is not the same as repudiating the evil. Even Moloch was only fired up periodically, not kept white hot.
The entire rise and spread in the power and influence of Rome for many hundreds of years was characterized by routine and widespread infanticide.
Western Roman Empire didn’t fall apart till after it became Christian and the practice stopped.
The Roman Republic ended in 27 BC. The Roman Empire which followed was not something to be glorified, characterized by rulers such as Caligula and Nero, et al..
How much affect do you think term limits and/or a set form of taxation (such as the Flat Tax or the Fair Tax) would have had on our progression through Sir Tyler's categories?
“Are we Rome?”
Better question: Is Rod Dreher a jerk?
I contend that once the political power of the ruling patrician class was neutralized by Augustus, they turned more towards the morally bankrupt lifesyles we think of when we picture the Roman Empire. Is there a parallel to modern US politics there?
When Rome fell, it sank into the depths of its own decadence and the horrors of the Dark Ages, but no great predatory power seized and subjugated the people who were foolish enough to let this happen.
Not so with the West today! Predators hover over the Western World right now--salivating over the prospects of vanquishing, devouring, and destroying its people.
Meanwhile, Leftists of the West, suffused with decay ripened by prosperity, revel in self-indulgence, including the indulgence of their petty vanities and foolish causes, blind to their own decadence, as their enemies become ever bolder and more assured of success in destroying them.
Middle America is the last great bastion of strength, health, and ascendancy in the Western World--the last great bastion of Western Civilization and the American Dream of universal liberty, justice, and prosperity for all the people of the world. The decadent Left is the greatest threat to all this--and the greatest asset to the enemies of the American Left and Western Civilization.
The Left is decadence. The "Mainstream Newsmedia" is its propaganda machine. The Democrat Party is its political machine.
Rome had its own barbarian horde invasion. We went to the beach yesterday and saw how the barbarian invasion of America has reached into every corner of this nation. The beach from my youth is gone. This may as well be a slum beach in Mexico or Honduras.
Er, you probably wouldn’t have wanted to live in pre-Christian Rome. In fact, if you were ill, poor, a slave, young, old, not from a good family, or from a good family that had fallen out of favor, or in any way vulnerable, you probably wouldn’t have wanted to live in pre-Christian Rome. One of Rome’s problems was the disloyalty of some of its subjects (slaves, in particular) because of the harsh treatment they received.
Christianity did not destroy Rome. Depopulation (at least in part related to the infanticide you seem to admire so) and lack of loyalty, as well as an increasing distance from its vision, were what weakened Rome and made it vulnerable to attack from the much more aggressive tribes to the north.
The good part of Rome - mostly, its legal system - was actually preserved by Christianity.
Yes. And the Roman Empire deteriorated fast. Caligula ("Little Bootsie", their pet name for him--he was sooooo popular at first!) was the third emperor. His predecessor, Tiberius, was the second--and he was horrible.
“Are We Rome?”
No, your Dallas.... I know it is a sh!tty little town, smack dab in the middle of nowhere... perpetually stuck with bad weather and a snobby class from Highland Park that would make a Malibu Prude puke.... you are not Rome... that is just the stink of Deep Elem you smell.
Now you listen to me! I did not have sex with that woman! .........
ummmmm, ... uh oh, ...
Look at history. In the last 10 Presidential terms, Republicans have held 7. Also remember from 1900-1950 the top three parties were Reps, Dems, and socialists.
“”””How much affect do you think term limits and/or a set form of taxation (such as the Flat Tax or the Fair Tax) would have had on our progression through Sir Tyler’s categories?”””
No way to know. Our forms (plural) of Government have become far too complex - neighborhoods, towns, counties, states and Federal. Where did it begin and where does it end? We are taxed into submission and reduced to standing around (Katrina)waiting for the mayor, the Governor and the President to make decisions for us - only because we have been coerced and controlled into believing that we are helpless children.
What happened to American dignity, honor, and ingenuity?
yes, we are Rome. we are falling. we will not stand.
One of the big differences between the US and Rome, which few people note, is that the US has NEVER had an empire - in the sense of colonies, possessions, etc. Rome had an empire, Spain had an empire, and England had an empire.
But the US had a few little tiny possessions, most of which we got rid of as soon as we could.
Our “empire” was mostly countries who wanted to follow us because they liked our example. They wanted to be considered a friend of the US because that meant that they, too, were in favor of personal liberty, the rule of law, and private property and enterprise.
I was just in Europe and they were all clucking their tongues and saying it was the “end of the US empire.” My question to them: What empire?
It was a voluntary empire, and if people have abandoned it, it is because they have abandoned the ideals, and this does not bode well for the world.
Rome fell because yhe Romans brought in ethnically incompatible workers from all over the empire to ‘do the jobs that the Romans did not want too’. The empire fell because the society came to be dominated by a very different people to those who formed the Republic. This is very similar to what is happenning in the modern West, including America.
Rome fell because yhe Romans brought in ethnically incompatible workers from all over the empire to ‘do the jobs that the Romans did not want too’. The empire fell because the society came to be dominated by a very different people to those who formed the Republic. This is very similar to what is happenning in the modern West, including America.
Rome fell because yhe Romans brought in ethnically incompatible workers from all over the empire to ‘do the jobs that the Romans did not want too’. The empire fell because the society came to be dominated by a very different people to those who formed the Republic. This is very similar to what is happenning in the modern West, including America.
Rome did not fall. They changed the venue. Rome is still here.
With all the ABORTIONS and PORNOGRAPHY, especially CHILD PORNOGRAPHY and GAY PRIDE and RIGHTS, we seem almost as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah.
Someone post the “headache guy” with the “Not this BS again” tag! Please!!
LLS
Its really, really easy.
Moral Decay destroys nations from within.
Moral decay examples.
Killing children. - abortion. Moloch.
Perverse sexual appetities and preferences. homosexuality. Rampant pornography. Infidelity.
Calling good bad and bad good. Soldiers saving chidren daily are demonized in our media. The two border patrol agents currently in jail.
Defending criminals. too many to count.
Demonizing and criminalizing good people. People who want their children not taught about decadent sexual practices in school have been prosecuted by schools recently for coming in righteously angered.
Stop the moral decay and God smiles upon the nation again and offers blessings. The healing is miraculously fast.
How does moral decay start?
By good people allowing it to.
How do you stop moral decay?
By not allowing evil in your own backyard. One person at a time.
Folks, its time to rebuild the holes in the wall in fron of our own houses.
The temple has been destroyed, but we can fix it. It not enough for us to get mad and vent on line. We need to be out teaching people the difference between right and wrong, and sometimes thats tough. But it starts with each one of us.
I think there are many more good people than bad, and even if there werent, it would still be the right thing to do to stand up for whats right.
God always blesses those who do.
So where’d all the good people go and how do we get them back into the streets?
And “we’re doomed” is not a really acceptable answer ( it involves surrender)
:-)
have faith. Fair winds of change are coming our way..... just takes a spark....
More like the late Roman Republic. IMO.
We have yet to "cross the Rubicon".
| Just an opinion: the United States is not as powerful, comparatively, as the Roman Empire. And it is not even as powerful as the British Empire once was, unless you take into account 'soft power.' The United States covers a territory of land roughly the same size as the Roman Empire. Although it has military bases in many countries, it does not make the laws for these lands, and therefore does not control them. The Roman Empire ruled much of their surroundings (the Mediterranean part of the world) for around 500 years. In contrast, the American hegemony has lasted around 60 years, and, again, members of that hegemony are often quick to not fall in line with the American stance. Furthermore, it does not look as though American hegemony over much of the world will last for another 440 years. This is not to state that the United States is weak, but the Roman Empire was intent on getting conquered land. The United States could have usurped much of Western Europe's colonies, much of Latin America (a traditional region of American influence), and those Western European countries themselves, after World War 2. Even the Soviet Union could have been crushed in they few years between when the Americans invented the atomic bomb and when the Soviets did. Then their 'empire' and their own country could have also been taken over. The United States did not do this. Even in NATO and in the early years and height of the Cold War, American allies have had independent stances from that of the United States. The allied countries are not colonies or vassal states of the American 'hegemon.' The American people generally are an insular, isolationist people, who are not very intent on empire-building. |
Your comments about government becoming too complex are right on the money.
There are time when I’m glad I’m an old fart. I really feel sorry for the kids coming up. Their future is none too bright :(
Moreover belonging to a state united under this Constitution not only has inertia and vested interest going in its favor, it also has many real and tangible benefits.
And thank God for that! We can barely, sorta, keep our country on the right track, let alone empire-building.
We are, if anything, a mercantile empire. We don’t usually care to try to run others peoples affairs, we just want to sell them stuff and buy their stuff.
A nation is having peace and prosperity? GREAT! Let the good times roll. Sell us your goods and services and may we interest you in ours?
A nation is having warfare and strife. NOT AS GREAT! But we can sell you some guns and ammo, let us know when things settle down and we can set up shop and invest.
“””I really feel sorry for the kids coming up. Their future is none too bright :(”””
As kids, we never considered we were living in “The Golden Age” but upon reflection - I believe it was.
We took risks, but we were not ‘at risk’. Poor, but not impoverished. Wild, but not evil. Lots of siblings, sure we fought - basic training! Horses, dogs, cats, rabbits, chickens - you name it, we raised it. We were such lucky little brats.
Damn technology!
•Both see themselves as the center of the world, divinely appointed to lead.
•Both have unusual capital cities where government is the main industry.
•Both let the private sector exploit public goods.
•Both are successful multi-ethnic empires, though with increasingly porous borders.
•Both have militaries stretched too thin to maintain imperial power.
•Both are unmanageably complex.
HOW IS THE U.S. UNLIKE ROME?
•The U.S. is a socially mobile, middle-class democracy; Rome was a rigid aristocracy.
•Americans are reluctant to be an empire; Romans accepted it.
•Rome was economically static; America is economically transformative.
•Romans were self-satisfied by nature; Americans strive for improvement.
•Romans committed to ruthless perseverance; Americans lack staying power.
HOW CAN WE AVOID ROME’S FATE?
•Accept that change is inevitable and that adaptation is necessary.
•Instill an appreciation of the wider world.
•Stop treating government as a necessary evil.
•Fortify the institutions that promote assimilation.
•Take some weight off the military. “
I am not an expert in Roman History, but I have read Gibbon, Plutarch, Suetonis and other history of that great entity. In reality, Rome survived over two thousand years, until the fall of Constantinople in 1453. The Western Empire collapsed for many reasons, while the Eastern Empire survived another thousand years.
The Western Empire was cursed with exceptionally poor leadership in the 5th Century, but its decline started much earlier. Gibbon opined that the Empire started its decline after the death of Marcus Aurelius. The Age of the Antonines was the peak.
“The virtue of Marcus Aurelius Antoninus was of a severer and more laborious kind. It was the well-earned harvest of many a learned conference, of many a patient lecture, and many a midnight lucubration. At the age of twelve years, he embraced the rigid system of the Stoics, which taught him to submit his body to his mind, his passions to his reason; to consider virtue as the only good, vice as the only evil, all things external as things indifferent.” Chapter 3
Others that followed:
“Yet the arts of Severus cannot be justified by the most ample privileges of state reason. He promised only to betray; he flattered only to ruin; and however he might occasionally bind himself by oaths and treaties, his conscience, obsequious to his interest, always released him from the inconvenient obligation.” Chapter 4
The Western empire fell because the political, social, moral and economic integrity of the society was not supported. The so called barbarians (most were German tribes or Huns) were described by Gibbon:
“Although the progress of civilisation has undoubtedly contributed to assuage the fiercer passions of human nature, it seems to have been less favourable to the virtue of chastity, whose most dangerous enemy is the softness of the mind. The refinements of life corrupt while they polish the intercourse of the sexes. The gross appetite of love becomes most dangerous when it is elevated, or rather, indeed, disguised by sentimental passion. The elegance of dress, of motion, and of manners gives a lustre to beauty, and inflames the senses through the imagination. Luxurious entertainments, midnight dances, and licentious spectacles, present at once temptation and opportunity to female frailty. From such dangers the unpolished wives of the barbarians were secured by poverty, solitude, and the painful cares of a domestic life. The German huts, open on every side to the eye of indiscretion or jealousy, were a better safeguard of conjugal fidelity than the walls, the bolts, and the eunuchs of a persian harem. To this reason, another may be added of a more honourable nature. The Germans treated their women with esteem and confidence, consulted them on every occasion of importance, and fondly believed that in their breasts resided a sanctity and wisdom more than human.” Chapter 9
“If all the barbarian conquerors had been annihilated in the same hour, their total destruction would not have restored the empire of the West: and if Rome still survived, she survived the loss of freedom, of virtue, and of honour.” Chapter 35
Gibbon also found that the early Christian Church was a part of the problem. The early church was obsessed with monasticism, where many bright people became monks:
“While the Romans languished under the ignominious tyranny of eunuchs and bishops...”
Gibbon found that the Arian controversy a huge divide in the early church:
Rome was rotten to the core, neither its aristocracy or its common people cared terribly much for what was left of Rome’s greatness in the 5th Century. Civic and moral virtue were rare and the Barbarians had much more of both.
The USA has NOT in my opinion ossified to the degree of 5th Century Rome, however, Rome started is downfall three hundred years earlier. During that time, its leadership produced some of its greatest and most virtuous leaders. The end was not written, as the Eastern Empire survived with more of a Greek cultural influence, and better leadership.
Our country has lost some of its will. No one thought we could lose a war during WWII. It unthinkable. Korea and Vietnam were not victories, at best ties.
Comparing Rome with America is difficult, since, our government was different, the economy was different, and the World is not different. However, if we lose our civic and moral virtue, and the will the win, the end it inevitable. American will fall more because of people like Jane Fonda and moral degenerated like Paris Hilton, especially if they become dominate.
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