Skip to comments.NH: Vid of my latest open carry incident
Posted on 08/06/2007 5:45:15 PM PDT by Dada Orwell
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Was Mr SS a friend of yours?
I can tell you from personal knowledge that this is the first time this sort of thing has happened outside the meeting. I would have been there myself, carrying openly, with my wife and son, if it hadn't been for the electrical wiring I had to get done on Saturday.
Here in GA open carry is legal if you have a CC permit, but taking a gun concealed or open into a taproom where alcohol is served would get you arrested and your CCW invalidated. Carrying openly would probably get you arrested anyway in the Atlanta metro area, and it would probably require hiring a lawyer to get you off the hook.
We badly need a overhaul of our CCW law here, but so far we haven't been able to make much headway of that front even though we now have a Republican majority State Assembly and governor that was supposed to be on our side of the issue.
I strongly doubt that this is true -- but if it is, it is one of the most abominably evil laws I've ever heard.
I’ve known him for a number of years - I’d say we’re more acquaintances, we don’t see each other much as he lives in Keene. He and I are in polar disagreement on certain core principles, like the use of defensive deadly force, so we each think the other’s a bit off our nut. He’s a really kind and friendly fellow most of the time - apparently except when faced with cops abusing their authority.
I don’t understand why some folks here would like to see a cop even further abuse that authority by attacking him and doing him grave bodily harm just because he’s not groveling at the sight of their shiny badges.
Friends of ours are planning to move to New Hampshire from Atlanta for just that reason, among others.
In New Hampshire, it's never been illegal to carry in a bar, and our decades of experience on that point puts the lie to the notion that seems to prevail everywhere else in the country that such violation of rights is "common sense."
We tried to fix it last session with a law that would clarify that a police officer in the performance of his duties has no expectation of privacy anywhere or at any time, except in the head or some such. The Democrats killed it, though.
By him, do you mean the guy in the striped shirt? Based on what I saw in that video, it's difficult to have any sympathy for him because it seemed as though he was doing everything he possibly could to escalate the situation into something that it wasn't.
It was the cops who started the situation, and the cops who could have ended the situation at any time by tipping their hats and going about their business, seeing as how no crime had been, was being, or was about to be committed, except by them under 18 USC 242.
In a democracy, people lose their liberties when they irritate people or scare them. Open carry does both.
Actually, that's exactly what the cops did---Striped Shirt Guy was the one who desperately wanted to escalate this minor thing into a "situation." The cops handled this situation well. Generally, I don't often side with the cops, but I have to give them credit here. Once they understood what was going down, they backed off accordingly. Manchester's not exactly the safest place in the world, so I can understand why they might look twice at a person packing heat.
People are people all over. If you irritate or scare enough of them they will do whatever it takes to end their fears.
Besides that fact, the political climate in NH is changing with the liberals moving up from Boston. They're looking for a nice quiet, safe, happy place live in and retire to. Poking them with a stick by carrying in the open might be an entertaining thing to do. But like poking a rattle snake here in AZ, it does no positive good and will eventually get you bit.
Well that would explain why he got a bit testy...For that very reason, then, Russell's friends need to keep him out of those scenarios, or one day they will escalate. That anger he's carrying around will eventually get him or someone else in trouble.
OTOH you maintained your cool and handled the situation properly. Well done.
If I was a gambling man I would bet money that the guy in the photo is a former MA resident who moved to NH and brought his left wing MA mindset with him.
I have a good friend and former neighbor from NH. He's a tough old WWII combat vet who would probably chase that guy in the hat all the way back to Boston if he still lived up there.
Read these NH statutes.
Where I saw Mr. SS become dangerous to the situation was when he jumped in front of the MPD Off. A little more than groveling. He does not help your message.
Have you ever heard of ATTY Penny Dean?
Yep, Mr. SS is ready for a repeat tour in the slammer
Obviously, no justifiable expectation that the communication would go unrecorded could exist when someone is openly employing a camcorder, so the statute forbidding the interception of oral communication is inapplicable to this situation.
But pretending that there are no rattlesnakes gets you bit too, as was the case in Ohio where the right to armed self-defense in the Constitution languished unused for decades. And when you finally do wind up stepping too close to the rattlesnake, without even a stick in your hand, and then complain about getting bit, people line up behind the rattlesnakes and say they should have snapped your elbow too, for good measure.
Only a mentally-ill person would be put into a state of mortal dread seeing someone walking down the street, minding his or her own business, with a holstered sidearm. And the accepted way to deal with the illness of phobia or anxiety disorders in the psychological community is through acclimation.
It's not about "entertainment," it's about a vital struggle for the preservation of the fundamental human right to armed self-defense, which as you know is under siege from every direction around the nation, including from police officers who swear an oath to uphold the Constitution.
You don't have to be pro-war in order to support individual liberty.
Mike is right. Here in NH you are allowed to carry inside any establishment serving alcohol, as long as the owners don’t have any rules against it and signs posted (I’ve never seen any). Because of this, I’d say that New Hampshire enjoys better gun laws than even Texas, where it’s posted ILLEGAL BY STATE LAW to carry into a bar.
Personally, I’m 27, and go to the pub several times a week to eat, have a pint, meet friends, etc. I carry daily, everwhere I go, including into every bar or pub I frequent. The only difference between Dave Ridley and Mike and myself is that I CCW. Dave does most of the time except for when we are out together in groups. I agree with Dave that open carrying while among other polite, well-dressed, ordinary folks goes a long way towards demonstrating that open carry is really NO BIG DEAL.
Although, Mike... after seeing this video I might open carry more frequently just to see what happens.
Stay safe you two. See you guys soon!
It’s true that there’s been incidents of black officers shot. Most often my friend would be in his car and the gun would be in the glove. There’d be some real interest along the lines of “hey, what do we have here” but of course then the paperwork would be produced.
And sometimes he’d be in the car with another guy who just happened to be a detective on the NYC force too.
More to the story than Dean or the papers wrote. it is in an area where you would probably not want to be at 0200.
War Is the Health of the State - by Randolph Bourne
With the shock of war, however, the State comes into its own again. The Government, with no mandate from the people, without consultation of the people, conducts all the negotiations, the backing and filling, the menaces and explanations, which slowly bring it into collision with some other Government, and gently and irresistibly slides the country into war. For the benefit of proud and haughty citizens, it is fortified with a list of the intolerable insults which have been hurled toward us by the other nations; for the benefit of the liberal and beneficent, it has a convincing set of moral purposes which our going to war will achieve; for the ambitious and aggressive classes, it can gently whisper of a bigger role in the destiny of the world. The result is that, even in those countries where the business of declaring war is theoretically in the hands of representatives of the people, no legislature has ever been known to decline the request of an Executive, which has conducted all foreign affairs in utter privacy and irresponsibility, that it order the nation into battle.
While I have often disputed and argued with Russell and others about the character and nature of the liberation of Iraq and the important role that the US military in bringing it about, and the long-term benefit it will bring to the world, I have never felt that their position is utterly devoid of merit. They just have different fundamental values than I, and weigh the balance of state-sponsored violence vs. state-sponsored tyranny differently than I do.
In GA we are required by law to show a cop our CC permit if we are carrying and if asked for it. The only time I have been stopped for a traffic offense I had my gun in the glove box. The cop didn't ask to see a permit because he didn't see the gun. But if he had seen the gun and he had asked to see my permit, I would have had to show the permit or else I probably would have been taken to the station house and booked for refusing his lawful request.
Just my HO, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that I should be required to show a CC permit since carrying either concealed or openly anywhere off of your own property without that permit is illegal in GA. Except that you can legally have a gun in your car if the gun is either visible or in the glove box or console. All in all, GA gun laws aren't nearly as harsh as many other state's laws, but IMHO no permit or license should be required by any state or local government in order to exercise a constitutionally protected right such as freedom of speech and the RKABA.
Why not? Why would you want her to cede her neighborhood to the criminal element regardless of the time of day? She works non-stop during the day, and doesn't sleep much, so why not go out for a walk at 0200? The night air is cool and brisk and refreshing.
What if the story is exactly as she says it is, and there really is an authoritarian rot lurking within the culture of the State Police?
Yes. No license is needed to carry a loaded firearm openly on one's person in New Hampshire. Indeed, it's not even legally required to identify yourself to a police officer if they don't have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed by you.
I realize that cops have a tough job at a usually sub-par wage, and that most of the people who they do serious business with are lowlife scumbuckets who are often released by bleeding heart judges and juries after endangering the lives of the cops who brought them in. But even so, it's not too much to ask of people who are given that much authority over their fellow citizens that they at least know what the laws are and how far they can go without overstepping their authority.
Well, I'm glad you found a way to get some excitement there in New Hampshire. Try marching around in front of some elementary schools openly...Might get exciting...Give you guys something to yuk it up about at the next meeting at "Murphy's Taproom".
Why are you being a dick? Aren’t we on the same team here?
So why even post this on the Internet? The cops know what the law is in this regard. This guy parading around with his sidearm, is like throwing down a piece of raw meat, and waiting for flies to land on it, with the results being kinda predictable.
If he was so concerned about "teaching the cops", why not go to the police stations and offer classes?
You don’t need a CCW permit to carry openly here in NH. Dave’s handgun is clearly visible, it is very clearly OPEN CARRY. No permit is necessary.
The only issue might be having to produce some kind of identification, even a library card or something (LOL!) to the officer, but I am willing to gamble that Dave knows more about those laws here in NH than I do.
Because as this video makes the rounds of police scuttlebutt via e-mail, it'll wind up being a lot less expensive than driving from one end of the state to the other to walk police officers through the basic Constitutional rights they swore an oath to uphold.
If they knew the law in this regard, then they had no more reason to detain him than they'd have on seeing an old man driving lawfully down the road without his seatbelt on here in New Hampshire.
Do you think that cops should be able to pull anyone over for no reason other than to check and make sure they have a valid drivers license? That's what's going on here.
Besides, you have to find out where the flies are in order to swat them.
I work a day job, have consulting customers after hours, own my own record label, work on two political campaigns and still try to get out and have a social life. I work around the clock.
I routinely ride my bicycle at night in Manchester NH. For me, 2am isn’t “late”. It’s quiet, it’s cooler, there is no traffic in the city, and you can see headlights from several blocks away. I wouldn’t even THINK of leaving the house without a handgun, and when I ride my bike, I sometimes open carry.
Peaceful citizens have a right to live, work and travel anywhere the please, and they have a right to self-defense in those areas as well. When I first moved to NH I was poor because I had taken all my savings to move. I lived in the ghetto because that was all I could afford at the time. Most people in poor neighborhoods are just trying to do the best they can with what they have. Because they live in bad neighborhoods they are at significantly greater risk of being crime victims than those in the suburbs. Poor inner city people in Manchester have the same rights to travel freely and safely anywhere, at any time, as do people in the wealthiest suburbs in NH.
CheezLouize, who wudda thunk that, and in the northeast to boot.
I know VT doesn't require a permit to carry concealed or openly, but I figured that NH was too close to MA for that. Seeing someone besides a cop carrying a gun would probably cause a MA Kennedyite to drop dead of cardiac arrest.
I didn't know that the guy holding the sign in that photo is one of the good guys in this story, I just assumed that he's some unidentified war protester who's on the other side of the gun carry issue as well as against the war in Iraq.
My bad, I'll try to pay attention to who's who on the thread from here on before posting again. I'm reading and posting to the thread during breaks from the menial jobs my wife assigned to me on this housecleaning day.
I don’t think that photo of him is from last Saturday.
If they don't know the firearms laws in regards to carrying/transporting them, in their own state, well, they should not be involved in law enforcement.
Or they don't think citizens do so they try to get away with more.
I think you are closer with this point.
For the record I want to say, I personally feel all firearms laws should be eliminated, EXCEPT those directed at felons and the mentally ill. Many states have made an absolute mockery of the 2nd Amendment. In addition, I feel states and counties that deny law abiding citizens CCW permits should be held TOTALLY liable if those citizens become victims of crime.
Amazing. Great job remaining composed and respectfully refusing upon hearing “your papers please.”
And I do commend the officers involved for not escalating the situation as an example to those who would dare to assert their 2nd & 4th Amendment rights.
Placemarker to watch later.
If you add the word "violent" before "felons" I can get on board with that...
Ordinarily, passing a bad check in Ohio is a misdemeanor, but large checks or multiple checks within a six-month period aggregating to large amounts make it a 5th-, 4th-, or 3rd-class felony, depending on the amounts involved.
And if a felon is violent enough that they can't be trusted with a gun, then the question becomes why they're not in prison.
I'll go farther than that. I don't believe that ANY laws against ANY class of people owning and carrying guns do any good at stopping crimes that involve guns. If a person who is not deterred by laws against murder, robbery, rape, etc, etc, which impose heavy penalties on the perpetrator, they certainly won't be deterred by a law against carrying a gun. Anyway, few criminals go to jail just for illegally carrying a gun, that's usually one of the first charges that gets bargained away by the prosecution in exchange for a confession, a plea bargain agreement, squealing on accomplices, info about the whereabouts of loot or bodies, etc.
IMHO allowing people to be legally armed at all times and places would do much more to cut crime rates than any gun law ever will. Combined with more severe penalties, including the death penalty for murder and for forcible rape of a minor, that would not be subject to parole or probation, I believe the violent crime rate would decline to somewhere near the rate for the late 19th century before many cities and states enacted draconian gun laws. Contrary to the film and TV industry's highly exaggerated portrayal of the "old west" era, it was for the most part a much safer and less violent era than today by far.
Before someone points out that some of the “old west” cow towns banned the carrying of guns in the city limits, I want to say that it was a much different situation in those towns than anywhere in the US today.
In towns where a gunslinging town marshall or sheriff, who btw was often a much worse criminal than the young cattle drovers he was hired to control, he often enforced that ban by either shooting down the offender if he put up a fight or brutally pistol whipping him into submission and then locking him up in a foul jail cell for the duration of his party’s stay in town.
If today's LEOs enforced gun laws that way there would probably be less crime now as well, but I doubt that any of us want to see that drastic solution to the problem.
I wasn’t impressed with the video. I don’t think we can assume that the police are brutally anti-freedom because they stop to ask questions of a guy carrying a gun, holstered or not, on the street.
Maybe they were less familiar with the laws about open carry in the state. But why pick a fight with them by not showing them your ID, explaining who you are, explaining why you carry, etc.? You’re just creating trouble for them and yourself, and what’s worse, stirring up hostilities between the police and handgun owners.
The police are on our side, unless we’re out to commit a crime. And they can’t read our minds to find out if we’re on their side. Maybe they could have been more friendly about it, but I think you could have been more cooperative too.
Walking around, railing about infringements of freedom, and causing a scene just because a cop asked about the weapon is the wrong kind of thing. In my humble opinion.
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