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Repost: "Enough With The Neocon And Paleocon Carping—I'll Stand With George W. Bush In 2004"
FreeRepublic.com ^ | 12/11/03 | Bernard Chapin/Bobby K

Posted on 08/10/2007 8:47:56 AM PDT by Reaganesque

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To: mysterio

“When a party receives the conservative vote regardless of the candidate, do you think that makes it more or less likely that the party will run a genuine small government conservative?”

I’m assuming your goal is to have a conservative small government candidate run AND WIN, not simply run.

IF that party gets elected and if conservatives within that party work to shift it more towards conservatism ... Yes

IF that party does not get elected, or you decide to abandon working within it, you have NO chance of reaching your goal.


51 posted on 08/10/2007 11:02:32 AM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: APFel

>> The only reason he ran as a Republican was because ONLY a Republican could win in that suburb. He ran the city like a liberal would.

>> “... I did come away with a valuable political lesson, one that so many “pragmatists” and “Anyone But Hillarys” have yet to learn ... putting an (R) after your name won’t make you a Republican.”

You seem to be mistaking pragmatism for supporting selling-out conservatism. I dare say that NO ONE on this board would support the Mayor in your example, or would call him a “pragmatist”. He was a liberal - plain and simple.

On immigration, Lindsay Graham wasn’t pragmatic, he was liberal. He wasn’t compromising on his conservative beliefs ... he was ADVOCATING liberal ones. There is a difference between occasionally compromising conservative principles where necessary for progress, and actively campaigning for liberal principles.

There is a distinction between a pragmatic conservative like George W. Bush (retarded immigration bill notwithstanding), and an outright liberal Republican like Olympia Snowe (for instance), or Lincoln Chafee pre-switch.

Your mayor was a liberal. He didn’t compromise his conservatism due to pragmatism ... he never held the conservative beliefs to begin with.

H


52 posted on 08/10/2007 11:07:38 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor
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To: stuartcr
How was it out of context? It was almost verbatim from your last sentence.

Yes, it was an accurate quote. The context of the quote has to do with everything surrounding the quote. In this case, the context of that sentence is the rest of my comments, as well as the thread, which is the discussion of which candidate deserves my vote. The context clearly indicates my conservative politics.

So, to answer your question, no. In context, my comments about Reagan would not justify a vote for a Democrat. I wrote what I wrote to indicate that the best Republican president in recent memory, perhaps ever, was not a 100%'er, as some seem to be waiting for. By his own account, Reagan compromised in order to make progress toward the goal.

Support the guy who is a great leader, could win the election and who fits your ideals as much as possible.

53 posted on 08/10/2007 11:08:57 AM PDT by TChris (The Republican Party is merely the Democrat Party's "away" jersey - Vox Day)
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To: Hemorrhage
Well put...

There is a big difference between playing at being a conservative and being a conservative trying to stake out as much of a conservative position on any given topic as they can in the prevailing environment.

This damning the reachable good for the sake of the unreachable great is pure folly.

54 posted on 08/10/2007 11:16:14 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (I am not really a Fred basher, I am a Paulitroll. THOMPSON 2008!)
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To: TChris

Amen.


55 posted on 08/10/2007 11:16:50 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (I am not really a Fred basher, I am a Paulitroll. THOMPSON 2008!)
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To: Hemorrhage
"For instance, if Ron Paul were the candidate, many conservatives, myself included, would be forced to find another candidate/ party to vote for."

"Thompson, Romney, Hunter, Huckabee, and probably even Giuliani - will likely recieve the support of the conservative base, as well as a significant portion of the middle."

So, you'll switch parties to vote against Paul but not Giuliani?
56 posted on 08/10/2007 11:19:59 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: APFel

Not sure your point ...

Do you NOT agree with the statement that “anyone but Hillery” should be elected ?

For example, if your ex-boss were running against Hillery next year, which would you prefer to become President ?


57 posted on 08/10/2007 11:22:57 AM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: Hemorrhage
How, exactly, would that be a step FORWARD for small government conservatives?

Because a liberal reminds Republicans that conservatives are their base. It could be argued that the Clintons were the best commercial for the conservative wing of the Republican party. The Republican revolution was a flood of genuine conservatives taking office. What preceded that flood?
58 posted on 08/10/2007 11:23:26 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: Reaganesque
What is a Conservative?

Depends on who you ask, but the reality is, political leanings fall along a spectrum. Too far right or left, and you get a kook. Everyone falls somewhere in between the extremes.

59 posted on 08/10/2007 11:23:29 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: RS
or you decide to abandon working within it

I never advocated abandoning working within the party to change it. I wouldn't ever advocate that.
60 posted on 08/10/2007 11:24:58 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: mysterio

Basically, the War on Terrorism is the deciding factor there.

I won’t vote for Rudy Giuliani in the primary, but I wouldn’t switch to vote against him if he were nominated. He did a fine job as mayor of NY. I disagree with him on quite a few social issues, and some fiscal issues (he is a tax cutter, which is good ... but a fairly free spender). However, I rarely disagree with Giuliani on foreign affairs (which will likely be the deciding factor in my vote) or homeland security/ criminal justice (FISA, PATRIOT Act, etc) issues.

I’d much rather have someone I’m more socially and fiscally in-sync with as the nominee, though ... Thompson, Hunter, Romney and Huckabee would be my top four (probaby in that order). Personally - I’d like to see Rudy Giuliani as Secretary of Homeland Security in the upcoming Fred Thompson administration.

Ron Paul is pretty much the opposite. I agree with him on some or most social and fiscal issues ... but his foreign policy is a complete catastrophe, and his record on homeland security isn’t much better. This is a deal breaker for me - if he is nominated, I’m out. Newt Gingrich for third party, baby.

If someone is going to surrender in the War on Terror, cripple homeland security, and run the country into the ground - I’d rather they have a (D) beside their name so we don’t get blamed for it.

H


61 posted on 08/10/2007 11:34:06 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor
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To: Hemorrhage

“upcoming Fred Thompson administration”

I like your style...


62 posted on 08/10/2007 11:35:19 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (I am not really a Fred basher, I am a Paulitroll. THOMPSON 2008!)
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To: Reaganesque
"If you got seventy-five or eighty percent of what you were asking for, I say, you take it and fight for the rest later, and that's what I told these radical conservatives who never got used to it."

He's right. We have to insist on someone who espouses the belief in individual liberty and personal responsibility first and foremost, but demanding all or nothing off of the conservative menu is stupid.

63 posted on 08/10/2007 11:37:32 AM PDT by redgirlinabluestate (God Bless Our Troops)
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To: TChris
Reagan wasn't great because he was perfect, but because he did most of what he did very well, and for the right reasons.

That is a great observation. I think it has a lot to do with seeing the big picture and having an optimistic vision for the future. While every step one takes or decision one makes may not be the most conservative one at the time, it can be leading in the right direction rather than two steps backward or to the left (if you know what I mean.)

64 posted on 08/10/2007 11:39:55 AM PDT by redgirlinabluestate (Mitt 4 Change ----> More Vision ------> Less Baggage)
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To: mysterio

“I never advocated abandoning working within the party to change it. I wouldn’t ever advocate that.

When a party receives the conservative vote regardless of the candidate, do you think that makes it more or less likely that the party will run a genuine small government conservative?”

The correct course for anyone who even considers “less likey” would be to threaten to withhold the support, and threats mean nothing with no intention to carry them out.


65 posted on 08/10/2007 11:53:34 AM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS

I vote for the primary candidate who most closely reflects my views. If they go ahead and nominate someone who isn’t strong on the Bill of Rights and smaller, less intrusive government, that candidate does not receive my vote. So I both work within the party and carry out my threat to not vote for big government authoritarians. See?


66 posted on 08/10/2007 11:58:38 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: mysterio

>> Because a liberal reminds Republicans that conservatives are their base. It could be argued that the Clintons were the best commercial for the conservative wing of the Republican party.

George W. Bush was the Republican nominee, and President, that directly followed the Clinton Administration ... the supposed “commercial for the Republican Party” ... and Bush didn’t even win by all that much. Many ideological purists on this site have claimed that Bush is the textbook definition of a pragmatic sellout, a RINO, etc.

That doesn’t square with your contention that a liberal President Gore would’ve taught Republicans a lesson about the base. A liberal President Clinton was followed by Bush, who you’d likely contend isn’t a real conservative.

>> The Republican revolution was a flood of genuine conservatives taking office. What preceded that flood?

Agreed. But, that “flood” was preceded by 40 YEARS of Democratic control of the House of Representatives (the last time Republicans had controlled the House was 1954). Sometimes losing isn’t a lesson for anyone ... its just losing.

So, you’re saying you’d have been FINE with President Gore since 2000 ... because it would’ve taught the Republicans a lesson, right? Nevermind what it’d have done to the country, the Supreme Court, the War on Terrorism, the budget, the tax rate, the economy, etc.

Let’s teach the nasty RINOs a lesson - the nation be damned. I still fail to see the value, to the conservative movement, of losing elections (or nominating unelectable candidates). Elections have consequences ... we’d be in much worse shape now had you gotten your way in 2000.

H


67 posted on 08/10/2007 11:59:35 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor
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To: Hemorrhage
So, you’re saying you’d have been FINE with President Gore since 2000 ...

Absolutely not. I'm not fine with a President who spends like Bush, either.

My argument is that conservatives should put a great deal more pressure on the Republican party to run candidates that believe in smaller, less intrusive government.
68 posted on 08/10/2007 12:11:43 PM PDT by mysterio
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To: mysterio

>>> So, you’re saying you’d have been FINE with President Gore since 2000 ...

>> Absolutely not. I’m not fine with a President who spends like Bush, either.

Nominating an unelectable candidate would’ve basically gotten Al Gore elected in 2000 - which is precisely why electability matters.

As far as I know, Christ is not running in this election. All candidates, Republican and Democrat, WILL have imperfections, ideological and otherwise. In an election with Thompson, Romney or Giuliani VS. Clinton, Obama, or Edwards (probably Clinton) ... there are no perfect candidates, but some are more acceptable than others.

What would be unacceptable, at least to my conscience, would be in ANY WAY contributing to the election of Hillary Clinton (or Obama or Edwards) by withholding my vote from a candidate (Thompson, Romney or Giuliani) who may be ideologically imperfect, but is unquestionably FAR better for future of the country than the alternative.

H


69 posted on 08/10/2007 12:24:11 PM PDT by SnakeDoctor
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To: Hemorrhage
We're driving off the cliff. Would you take chance at hitting the brake and actually stopping the car, or would you rather just let off the accelerator and go off the cliff at thirty miles an hour instead of fifty?

I pick hit the brake. Enough is enough. Let's nominate a conservative this time.
70 posted on 08/10/2007 12:32:16 PM PDT by mysterio
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To: Reaganesque; BobbyK
Kerry Cheney/Haliburton Ad Proven False
  Posted by BobbyK to Darkwolf377
On News/Activism 10/03/2004 7:21:03 PM CDT · 4 of 51

Shame on them little fact checkers.

I am very interested to know what people think on this subject.

Why not ask BobbyK? But then, he hasn't posted here in almost three years. So I guess he's not a True Conservative either. LOL.
71 posted on 08/10/2007 1:28:49 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa, wets himself over YouTube)
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To: TChris
Vote for the candidate who best represents your ideas of good government.

I vote against any scumbag who uses the word "good" in close proximity to "government".
72 posted on 08/10/2007 1:30:35 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa, wets himself over YouTube)
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To: George W. Bush
I vote against any scumbag who uses the word "good" in close proximity to "government".

Mmmmmm Kaaaaaaay.

73 posted on 08/10/2007 1:31:28 PM PDT by TChris (The Republican Party is merely the Democrat Party's "away" jersey - Vox Day)
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To: mysterio
So, you'll switch parties to vote against Paul but not Giuliani?

Giuliani and Paul are idelogolical opposites.

Do you recall that little candidate selection quiz webpage somebody's son wrote last month? Two big surprises was that over half the people who took it picked Kucinich (I assume the DUmmies trashed that part). But of the remainder, the single most striking and consistent result was that all of the Paul supporters who took it had him ranked top but Giuliani ended up completely at the bottom, even below Kucinich and the other Dims. As I said, it was strikingly consistent.

So the utter polarity you see in how people perceive those two candidates isn't so surprising.

Giuliani is the guy who says "what good are your civil rights if you're afraid to go out at night. Just give up some of them and I can make you safer." To Ron Paul supporters, a guy like that is the Devil. Once you've given up your rights in the slightest degree, you can never get them back, they will never again be inviolable.
74 posted on 08/10/2007 1:38:03 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa, wets himself over YouTube)
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To: mysterio

>> We’re driving off the cliff. Would you take chance at hitting the brake and actually stopping the car, or would you rather just let off the accelerator and go off the cliff at thirty miles an hour instead of fifty? I pick hit the brake. Enough is enough. Let’s nominate a conservative this time.

Its a cute analogy ... but completely nonsensical.

(1) We’re not driving off a cliff. People have been saying this for decades ... yet life continues to improve in the United States. We’re wealthier than we’ve ever been, we’re growing MORE religious as a nation, and life for Americans is generally good.

After virtual complete liberal rule from 1930 to 1980, we’ve had 28 years of relatively conservative leadership. Bill Clinton, the most liberal President since 1980, was probably more conservative than Richard Nixon, the most conservative President from 1963 to 1980. Liberalism is on the run (to such an extent that they won’t even CALL themselves liberal anymore). Taxes are lower, jobs are higher, the economy is booming, the welfare state is diminishing, the media is increasingly conservative (though there are still stalwarts), and we’ve finally taken back the Supreme Court.

We’ve survived totalitariansim, fascism, Naziism and Communism - and we will survive Islamic Radicalism. We’ve survived the Great Depression, World Wars I and II, Feminists, homegrown Commies, Hippies, Peaceniks, the Black Panthers, Roe v. Wade, Johnson’s Welfare State, Roosevelt’s Nanny State, Clinton’s Pantsless State, the assassination of the Kennedys and MLK, the attack on the WTC, the resignation of President Nixon, and the entire useless Presidency of Jimmy Carter.

And, yet, we’re still the strongest nation on the planet - and THE reigning model of conservative values which serves a living proof of the failure of liberalism.

There are problems, to be sure - many problems. But, generally speaking, we’re not driving off a cliff. We’re thriving.

(2) Even if your “driving off a cliff” analogy were accurate, seeking to nominate an unelectable candidate will not “hit the brakes” ... it will continue us toward the cliff at the fastest possible pace.

Instead of “slowing”, you’re picking AIM for the brake, but miss completely ... a useless gesture that only serves to make you feel better, but will ultimately do nothing to fix any problems we might have (which, incidentally, is a central theme of liberalism ... sure, it won’t work, but it makes me feel better).

By definition, an unelectable candidate will lose - embarrassingly. Such a loss could cripple the conservative movement ... just as the Jimmy Carter catastophe in 1980 killed the liberal movement (to this day), and the trouncing of Barry Goldwater sent conservatives underground from 1964 to 1980.

(3) We will nominate a conservative, just as we have for the past 28 years ... Reagan, Reagan, Bush-41, Bush-41, Dole, Bush-43, Bush-43. Of course, Bush-41 didn’t turn out as well as he should have ... he raised taxes, and LOST in 1992 because of it. Dole was weak, but conservative. Bush-43 is generally conservative, but often strays from fiscal conservatism.

And - since we’ve started nomination actual conservatives, out of those 7 nominations ... we’ve got 5 victories.

Fred Thompson (my bet for the nominee) is plenty conservative, with significant broad appeal and certain electability. Romney wouldn’t be terrible either, and Giuliani has some appeal - but Thompson’s still my bet.

(4) If Ron Paul is your guy, which I suspect he is ... a conservative he is not. Fred Thompson is a mainstream conservative with HUGE appeal to conservatives, as well as some appeal to independants. Romney and Giuliani each have similar broad appeal - though I think Thompson would have FAR more appeal to the base.

Ron Paul doesn’t even appeal to most of the CONSERVATIVES on THIS board. His outlandish views on foreign affairs, national defense and homeland security are more in line with Dennis Kucinich than Ronald Reagan. His ridiculous statements on 9/11 specifically, and race relations generally, make him an entirely useless candidate. He will NOT get my vote (under any circumstances), and will likely not get the vote of most conservatives here.

If he were truly conservative ... he’d have more support from true conservatives.

H


75 posted on 08/10/2007 1:45:24 PM PDT by SnakeDoctor
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To: mysterio

” If they go ahead and nominate someone who isn’t strong on the Bill of Rights and smaller, less intrusive government, that candidate does not receive my vote. “

So am I correct that you would not vote AGAINST the opposition who may be strongly against the Bill of Rights and for more intrusive governemnt ... thereby making them one vote closer to being elected ?


76 posted on 08/10/2007 2:03:27 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS

I will not vote for anyone who is not strong on the Bill of Rights. If the Republicans run someone who is a gun grabber, that candidate will not get my vote.


77 posted on 08/10/2007 2:36:14 PM PDT by mysterio
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To: mysterio

“If the Republicans run someone who is a gun grabber, that candidate will not get my vote.”

That it ? When the opposition puts up someone who will grab your gun AND surrender in Iraq AND pack the Supreme Court with raging Liberals, that’s not a problem for you ?

Folding your arms and sitting back is not an option in my opinion ... I may not get everything I want, but I’m damned sure not going to let them get everything they want.


78 posted on 08/10/2007 3:09:48 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: Reaganesque

As Rush is fond of saying, you’re never going to get a candidate who agrees with you on everything.

To expect one is remarkably myopic.

Problem is, we haven’t had a really good one since Reagan, and we are, as a base, incredibly hungry for conservative inspiration. The logical flaw we sometimes embrace is that, in order to be inspiring to conservatives, a candidate must be perfectly conservative. Likewise, I don’t think we currently have a candidate who is both inspiring and perfectly conservative - and that goes for the Fredheads, too.

I think I’d prefer the inspirational leader at this point, who can rally the support of the American people in doing the 80% that he agrees with me on, than a perfectly conservative leader who can’t get the support required to accomplish anything.


79 posted on 08/10/2007 3:33:54 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Hemorrhage

~”As far as I know, Christ is not running in this election.”~

There’s always the write-in candidate.


80 posted on 08/10/2007 3:59:38 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: mysterio

“We’re driving off the cliff. “

They tried that scare tactic here in CA with the Gov. race.

Nomination of a conservative would have insured the election of a left wing liberal and all the illegals would have driver’s licenses.


81 posted on 08/10/2007 4:09:19 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS

~”Nomination of a conservative would have insured the election of a left wing liberal and all the illegals would have driver’s licenses.”~

Then, maybe, some people would be driving over a cliff?


82 posted on 08/10/2007 4:38:18 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Reaganesque

placemarker


83 posted on 08/11/2007 8:47:22 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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