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How Much Jail Time? (For women who get abortions)
Newsweek ^ | 8/6/2007 | Anna Quindlen

Posted on 08/16/2007 11:23:43 AM PDT by mngran

Buried among prairie dogs and amateur animation shorts on YouTube is a curious little mini-documentary shot in front of an abortion clinic in Libertyville, Ill. The man behind the camera is asking demonstrators who want abortion criminalized what the penalty should be for a woman who has one nonetheless. You have rarely seen people look more gobsmacked. It's as though the guy has asked them to solve quadratic equations. Here are a range of responses: "I've never really thought about it." "I don't have an answer for that." "I don't know." "Just pray for them."

You have to hand it to the questioner; he struggles manfully. "Usually when things are illegal there's a penalty attached," he explains patiently. But he can't get a single person to be decisive about the crux of a matter they have been approaching with absolute certainty.

A new public-policy group called the National Institute for Reproductive Health wants to take this contradiction and make it the centerpiece of a national conversation, along with a slogan that stops people in their tracks: how much time should she do? If the Supreme Court decides abortion is not protected by a constitutional guarantee of privacy, the issue will revert to the states. If it goes to the states, some, perhaps many, will ban abortion. If abortion is made a crime, then surely the woman who has one is a criminal. But, boy, do the doctrinaire suddenly turn squirrelly at the prospect of throwing women in jail.

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: abortion; annaquindlen; quindlen
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Sorry the article is ten days old, I just read it in my doctor's waiting room yesterday.

The video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo and this column are obviously pro-abort, but I think their question is a fair one and one I hadn't thought about before

I guess I have to conclulde that since abortion is murder, the woman who does it should be punished for murderer, even though it somehow makes me uneasy. Still trying to think through this one. Does anyone know what the punishment was in the South Dakota law that got overturned last election?

1 posted on 08/16/2007 11:23:45 AM PDT by mngran
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To: mngran

2 years in jail and community service at an orphange for two additional years. The doctor? Murder charges.


2 posted on 08/16/2007 11:26:19 AM PDT by pissant (Duncan Hunter: Warrior, Statesman, Conservative)
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To: mngran

Answer: None. Throw the doctor in jail for 2 years.


3 posted on 08/16/2007 11:27:26 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie
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To: mngran
I’d have to think about what penalty the woman would get but the abortionist would get 20 years for each murder...served consecutively.
4 posted on 08/16/2007 11:28:21 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (If martyrdom is so cool,why does Osama Obama go to such great lengths to avoid it?)
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To: mngran

The law can distinguish between the mother and the abortionist-it’s not axiomatic that they would be equally culpable in the eyes of the law. For instance, the mother could be subject to mitigating factors which would ameliorate her guilt, and aggravating factors which would increase it.


5 posted on 08/16/2007 11:28:39 AM PDT by Spok
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To: mngran

What is the going rate for the premeditated murder of a child?

Once abortion is made illegal, women who have abortions should pay the price just as they would if they murdered their baby after it has been born.


6 posted on 08/16/2007 11:30:33 AM PDT by trumandogz
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To: Spok

It would be an interesting study, and one that would NEVER be allowed to be done,

to find out how many abortions are performed under coercive circumstances, boyfriend forcing it, or to hide a rape, etc.


7 posted on 08/16/2007 11:31:17 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: Uncle Miltie

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking too. The woman has to live with herself for the rest of her life, the doctor gets whatever a murder charge carries in that state. That will dry up the supply of people who will do abortions pretty quickly.


8 posted on 08/16/2007 11:31:39 AM PDT by mhx
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To: Uncle Miltie

You are willing to let an accomplice in a premeditated murder walk free?


9 posted on 08/16/2007 11:31:54 AM PDT by trumandogz
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To: pissant
community service at an orphange

Where are orphanages in the U.S.?

10 posted on 08/16/2007 11:33:04 AM PDT by Alouette (Vicious Babushka)
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To: mngran
Obviously, if abortion were to become illegal, criminal penalties would be incumbent upon the person who performed the abortion as was the case before Roe v. Wade.
11 posted on 08/16/2007 11:34:59 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: Uncle Miltie
Answer: None. Throw the doctor in jail for 2 years.

Why this distinction? The woman took intentional steps to end the life of her baby. She showed up at the abortion clinic and cooperated as the baby was killed. That sounds like murder to me. How can you not punish her? What's the point of making it illegal if there's no penalty?
12 posted on 08/16/2007 11:35:15 AM PDT by mngran
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To: Uncle Miltie
"Answer: None. Throw the doctor in jail for 2 years."

The problem there is that you don't need a doctor to perform an abortion. For example in my state (IL) the last few yeas before abortions became illegal there were a were a number of womens' groups teaching how to perform “menstrual extractions”.

The only time a doctor needs become involved in a first trimester abortion is the unusual case where something goes wrong, in which case they are treated the complications of a botched abortion.

13 posted on 08/16/2007 11:35:19 AM PDT by M. Dodge Thomas (Opinion based on research by an eyewear firm, which surveyed 100 members of a speed dating club.)
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To: pissant

exactly.


14 posted on 08/16/2007 11:37:11 AM PDT by JSDude1 (Republicans if the don't beware ARE the new WHIGS! (all empty hairpieces..) :).)
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To: mngran

Manslaughter penalties for the mom, 1st degree murder penalties for the “doc”. Add sterilization for a second offence.


15 posted on 08/16/2007 11:37:34 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (Brian J. Marotta, 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub, (1948-2007) Rest In Peace, our FRiend)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

the complications of any abortion is a dead baby (human life)!


16 posted on 08/16/2007 11:38:56 AM PDT by JSDude1 (Republicans if the don't beware ARE the new WHIGS! (all empty hairpieces..) :).)
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To: mngran
"The man behind the camera is asking demonstrators who want abortion criminalized what the penalty should be for a woman who has one nonetheless."

Well, do what ever we do to any other murderer of course.

17 posted on 08/16/2007 11:39:36 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (An American Patriot and an anti-Islam kind of fellow. (POI))
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To: trumandogz

Dry up the supply of people performing abortions. That will essentially eliminate them.


18 posted on 08/16/2007 11:41:00 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie
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To: mngran

First you have to catch them. How do you do that? How do you prove someone had an abortion? First you have to know they were pregnant, then you have to know they are no longer pregnant, then you have to know the pregnancy was terminated on purpose.

I think that is alot to prove.

But let’s say it is proven beyond reasonable doubt. Well, then there must be a penalty. I don’t think you can consider it murder because they are not technically the murderer. The doctor performing the procedure is the technical murderer. In a way you could say that the woman is a victim. A trusted professional is telling these young girls it is a medical procedure and the right thing to do. And they believe it.

If abortion is outlawed, are they outlawing the medical procedure, or are they outlawing the act of seeking this medical procedure?

For instance, lets say they outlaw silicone breast implants. If a woman seeks these implants anyway and finds a doctor to give them, who does the law go after? The woman or the doctor?


19 posted on 08/16/2007 11:41:19 AM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: mngran

My understanding is that historically the women were rarely punished. The punishment is primarily for the abortion “provider.”

I do not want to see a woman be jailed for this. I figure she’s “temporarily insane.” Most women who choose abortions do so because they are being pressured - not all, but the vast majority - and with that in mind, I wouldn’t feel comfortable jailing or punishing the woman.


20 posted on 08/16/2007 11:41:54 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Alouette
There probably aren't many, if any orphanages in the US--but IMHO, there should be!

If we had well planned out orphanages with loving, involved workers there, then there would be no need for child protective services to remove a child from one bad home enviornment and placing them in another equally bad or worse enviornment.

These orphanages should have oversight by a committee of folks dedicated to making sure that each child is being cared for in a loving, disciplined enviornment.

It would also be a place that mother's with an unwanted pregnancy could leave her newborn to be given up for adoption.

21 posted on 08/16/2007 11:41:59 AM PDT by basil (Support the Second Amendment--buy another gun today!)
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To: Spok

Very well said. I posted something, although not nearly as articulate, which essentially said the same thing as your post.


22 posted on 08/16/2007 11:42:41 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: mngran
The woman get life in her personal prison, she has to live her life knowing she allowed her baby to be murdered.

The doctor gets charged with 1st degree murder and get life in prison or the death penalty, depending on the state the crime was committed in.

Next question?

23 posted on 08/16/2007 11:42:58 AM PDT by Beagle8U (FreeRepublic -- One stop shopping ....... Its the Conservative Super Walmart for news .)
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To: mngran

Jail time for the woman is not nearly as effective as jail time for the person performing the abortion.


24 posted on 08/16/2007 11:43:16 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: Paved Paradise
I don’t think that I am willing to be that soft on crime, especially premeditated murder of a child.
25 posted on 08/16/2007 11:43:41 AM PDT by trumandogz
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To: MrB

You GOT it kiddo. Most abortions are done under coercion or pressure. In fact, the very reality that abortions exist acts as a coercion of sorts because many of the woman’s friends, co-workers and so on will suggest it even if she has no desire to do it at all. It’s very complicated.


26 posted on 08/16/2007 11:44:00 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: trumandogz

Think of our daughter, if you have one. When you make it personal, it’s a lot easier to be merciful.


27 posted on 08/16/2007 11:44:48 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: mngran

If an unborn child has the same right to life as a newborn, then the penalty should be the same. A woman who hired a hitman to murder her newborn baby would do some jail time. Evidence of coersion should be taken account for mitigation purposes, but letting the mother walk away scot free treats women like children and encourages home abortions.


28 posted on 08/16/2007 11:45:18 AM PDT by LWalk18
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To: trumandogz

Oops “our” should mean “Your.” Don’t want to start any ugly rumors here on FR (ha ha).


29 posted on 08/16/2007 11:46:13 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: LWalk18

Oy. What can a person say to you? Are you that hard-hearted? When I think of some of the nefarious ways a woman becomes pregnant; and think of how women can be so vulnerable to coercion, etc., to equate hiring a hit man to kill a baby with her seeking to get rid of it seems a little ludicrous.


30 posted on 08/16/2007 11:48:03 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: mngran

It’s an obvious trap. Even most ardent pro-lifers wouldn’t seek a penalty against the woman.


31 posted on 08/16/2007 11:48:07 AM PDT by Melas (Offending stupid people since 1963)
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To: mngran

I had not really thought about this before but if an unborn child is recognized as such then it would be the same as a mother standing by , and letting someone kill her birthed child. The penalty...well...that’s what juries are for.
I really don’t see this as a problem though. It is against the law to kill your kids now and almost none do. If abortions become illegal then we are probably only looking at rare cases.


32 posted on 08/16/2007 11:48:21 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: NonValueAdded
"Manslaughter penalties for the mom..."

I was thinking something more along the lines of conspiracy to commit murder, as though she was hiring a hitman to kill a husband. The abortionist is the actual murderer.

As with any criminal charge, matters of extenuation and mitigation should be taken into account during sentencing once guilt has been established.

33 posted on 08/16/2007 11:49:35 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Melas

That’s the point of the question.

The asker intends that abortion remain completely legal, in any and all circumstances, and even paid for by people who oppose it.

The answer is - there will be no crime to punish if there is no provider willing to do the crime.


34 posted on 08/16/2007 11:49:51 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: mngran; All

You bring up a not-uncommon argument used by the pro-abortion community. They use it to elicit sympathy, but mostely, they would like us to be afraid of being accused of hating women or trying to control them and their sexuality.

In fact, we see human life as something to be protected and we abhor discrimination. We don’t discriminate between who is and who is not human enough to protect from intentional killing when they are not a threat to life.

The woman is guilty of self-harm, as well as causing the death of her child. We no longer treat attempted suicide and self-mutilation as criminal offenses, but as the result of mental disorders. Those who perform abortions on themselves truly do so “privately.” The State - our society - has a responsibility to treat these women to prevent them from being a danger to themselves.

How do we treat women who kill their child just after birth? Again, the punishments often take into account the state of mind of the woman.

The State regulates medical practice, however. The act of abortion for medical reasons should be treated as a medical procedure. If there is no medical reason - the risk of the life of the mother or permanent physical harm - the abortion should be treated as other homicides are treated.


35 posted on 08/16/2007 11:50:43 AM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.lifeethics.org/www.lifeethics.org/index.html)
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To: mngran
Before Roe it was a crime to perform an abortion, not to have one. Women weren’t thrown in jail. This is designed to frighten women into backing the pro-aborts.
36 posted on 08/16/2007 11:52:15 AM PDT by colorado tanker (I'm unmoderated - just ask Bill O'Reilly)
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To: mamelukesabre
I don’t think you can consider it murder because they are not technically the murderer. The doctor performing the procedure is the technical murderer. In a way you could say that the woman is a victim.

On the other hand, if you arrange a murder, making an appointment with the killer, then drive the victim to the arranged spot to be killed, you're certainly an accomplice to murder at the very least, and not a victim.

37 posted on 08/16/2007 11:52:30 AM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep
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To: hocndoc

It’s always a pleasure to read intelligent and well-thought-out replies/posts on FR.


38 posted on 08/16/2007 11:52:31 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Paved Paradise

I have both a son and a daughter and have raised both not to be criminals. If one were to kill their child before or after birth they would have to be punished.


39 posted on 08/16/2007 11:53:50 AM PDT by trumandogz
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To: Joe 6-pack

Well, in the case of a hit man hiring, if the act is not consummated then it was conspiracy to commit if not attempted murder. However, if a contract killing is carried out, then the hiring person is is indicted as a first degree murderer. Paying someone else to pull the trigger doesn’t let one off the hook. In my approach, the extenuation is provided by the redeuction of a 1st degree charge down to manslaughter. As for the contract killer, let him or her fry in old sparky with a dry sponge.


40 posted on 08/16/2007 11:54:00 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (Brian J. Marotta, 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub, (1948-2007) Rest In Peace, our FRiend)
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To: trumandogz

For the doctor: 25 years to life - it is vulgar premediation on the doctor’s part. For scum like Tiller the Baby Killer in Kansas, there is a special place in hell for people like that.

As to the mother, that’s more difficult as it depends on the circumstances. If the abortion is due to the convenience of the mother, the punishment should be severe (25+ years). If it is a case of (PROVEN rape - not just saying it), 30 days might be approptiate.

ANY woman who has a second abortion for ANY reason: life.


41 posted on 08/16/2007 11:55:09 AM PDT by jpav0923
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To: mamelukesabre

How do the pro-abortion advocates know that there were millions and millions of women who had illegal abortions? How did they “catch” them?

Again, the act of self mutilation or attempted suicide is something that any of us can do. How do we “catch” the people who do this? How do we treat them?


42 posted on 08/16/2007 11:55:32 AM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.lifeethics.org/www.lifeethics.org/index.html)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep
Now you are talking Accomplice to Capital Murder of a Child. I think that gets you the Death Penalty in some states and Life in Prison in most states.
43 posted on 08/16/2007 11:55:49 AM PDT by trumandogz
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep
Now you are talking Accomplice to Capital Murder of a Child. I think that gets you the Death Penalty in some states and Life in Prison in most states.
44 posted on 08/16/2007 11:56:03 AM PDT by trumandogz
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To: mhx

>> Yeah, that’s what I was thinking too. The woman has to live with herself for the rest of her life, the doctor gets whatever a murder charge carries in that state. That will dry up the supply of people who will do abortions pretty quickly.

... as would lesser prison time (and charges) for the doctor, coupled with a huge fine and loss of medical license.

The “elephant in the living room” is this: abortion is big business. HUGE business. Greed more than ideology has destroyed the spirit of the hippocratic oath for the medical profession.


45 posted on 08/16/2007 11:57:34 AM PDT by Nervous Tick
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To: Spok

The Texas statute overtunned by Roe, V. Wade only punished the abortionist. Ironically, only the abortionist who joined his case with Roe’s got relief.


46 posted on 08/16/2007 11:58:51 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: mngran

In truth, many studies show that women who have had abortions have life long mental disorders stemming from their abortions.


47 posted on 08/16/2007 11:58:59 AM PDT by mware (By all that you hold dear..on this good earth... I bid you stand! Men of the West!)
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To: Paved Paradise
Oy. What can a person say to you? Are you that hard-hearted? When I think of some of the nefarious ways a woman becomes pregnant.

Other than rape, a woman chooses to engage in activity to become pregnant. Adult women are not children, and are capable of making rational decisions. Rape would be a mitigating factor, presumedly.

Look, the reality is that chance that women will be put in jail for having an abortion is nil. However, it is a logical contradiction that somehow if a woman who is 39 weeks pregnant hires a doctor to perform a partial birth abortion she should be off the hook but if she hires someone to murder her day old newborn she should serve 20 years in prison. It means that despite the rhetoric, even most pro-lifers do not see the unborn as having the same status as those who are born.

48 posted on 08/16/2007 11:59:28 AM PDT by LWalk18
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To: Paved Paradise

Next time you read about a serial murderer or a thief, think of your son.

We do have to make laws that are applicable to everyone’s son and daughter - and with a “there but for the grace of G_d go I” attitude - both for the victim(s) and the guilty. However, we shouldn’t decide on the enforcement of law on a case-by-case or emotional basis.


49 posted on 08/16/2007 11:59:38 AM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.lifeethics.org/www.lifeethics.org/index.html)
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To: NonValueAdded
"Well, in the case of a hit man hiring, if the act is not consummated then it was conspiracy to commit if not attempted murder. However, if a contract killing is carried out, then the hiring person is is indicted as a first degree murderer."

Well...I don't have time to look it up now, but I believe that might vary from state to state...

50 posted on 08/16/2007 12:00:10 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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