Skip to comments.How Much Jail Time? (For women who get abortions)
Posted on 08/16/2007 11:23:43 AM PDT by mngran
Buried among prairie dogs and amateur animation shorts on YouTube is a curious little mini-documentary shot in front of an abortion clinic in Libertyville, Ill. The man behind the camera is asking demonstrators who want abortion criminalized what the penalty should be for a woman who has one nonetheless. You have rarely seen people look more gobsmacked. It's as though the guy has asked them to solve quadratic equations. Here are a range of responses: "I've never really thought about it." "I don't have an answer for that." "I don't know." "Just pray for them."
You have to hand it to the questioner; he struggles manfully. "Usually when things are illegal there's a penalty attached," he explains patiently. But he can't get a single person to be decisive about the crux of a matter they have been approaching with absolute certainty.
A new public-policy group called the National Institute for Reproductive Health wants to take this contradiction and make it the centerpiece of a national conversation, along with a slogan that stops people in their tracks: how much time should she do? If the Supreme Court decides abortion is not protected by a constitutional guarantee of privacy, the issue will revert to the states. If it goes to the states, some, perhaps many, will ban abortion. If abortion is made a crime, then surely the woman who has one is a criminal. But, boy, do the doctrinaire suddenly turn squirrelly at the prospect of throwing women in jail.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
I guess I have to conclulde that since abortion is murder, the woman who does it should be punished for murderer, even though it somehow makes me uneasy. Still trying to think through this one. Does anyone know what the punishment was in the South Dakota law that got overturned last election?
2 years in jail and community service at an orphange for two additional years. The doctor? Murder charges.
Answer: None. Throw the doctor in jail for 2 years.
The law can distinguish between the mother and the abortionist-it’s not axiomatic that they would be equally culpable in the eyes of the law. For instance, the mother could be subject to mitigating factors which would ameliorate her guilt, and aggravating factors which would increase it.
What is the going rate for the premeditated murder of a child?
Once abortion is made illegal, women who have abortions should pay the price just as they would if they murdered their baby after it has been born.
It would be an interesting study, and one that would NEVER be allowed to be done,
to find out how many abortions are performed under coercive circumstances, boyfriend forcing it, or to hide a rape, etc.
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking too. The woman has to live with herself for the rest of her life, the doctor gets whatever a murder charge carries in that state. That will dry up the supply of people who will do abortions pretty quickly.
You are willing to let an accomplice in a premeditated murder walk free?
Where are orphanages in the U.S.?
The problem there is that you don't need a doctor to perform an abortion. For example in my state (IL) the last few yeas before abortions became illegal there were a were a number of womens' groups teaching how to perform “menstrual extractions”.
The only time a doctor needs become involved in a first trimester abortion is the unusual case where something goes wrong, in which case they are treated the complications of a botched abortion.
Manslaughter penalties for the mom, 1st degree murder penalties for the “doc”. Add sterilization for a second offence.
the complications of any abortion is a dead baby (human life)!
Well, do what ever we do to any other murderer of course.
Dry up the supply of people performing abortions. That will essentially eliminate them.
First you have to catch them. How do you do that? How do you prove someone had an abortion? First you have to know they were pregnant, then you have to know they are no longer pregnant, then you have to know the pregnancy was terminated on purpose.
I think that is alot to prove.
But let’s say it is proven beyond reasonable doubt. Well, then there must be a penalty. I don’t think you can consider it murder because they are not technically the murderer. The doctor performing the procedure is the technical murderer. In a way you could say that the woman is a victim. A trusted professional is telling these young girls it is a medical procedure and the right thing to do. And they believe it.
If abortion is outlawed, are they outlawing the medical procedure, or are they outlawing the act of seeking this medical procedure?
For instance, lets say they outlaw silicone breast implants. If a woman seeks these implants anyway and finds a doctor to give them, who does the law go after? The woman or the doctor?
My understanding is that historically the women were rarely punished. The punishment is primarily for the abortion “provider.”
I do not want to see a woman be jailed for this. I figure she’s “temporarily insane.” Most women who choose abortions do so because they are being pressured - not all, but the vast majority - and with that in mind, I wouldn’t feel comfortable jailing or punishing the woman.
If we had well planned out orphanages with loving, involved workers there, then there would be no need for child protective services to remove a child from one bad home enviornment and placing them in another equally bad or worse enviornment.
These orphanages should have oversight by a committee of folks dedicated to making sure that each child is being cared for in a loving, disciplined enviornment.
It would also be a place that mother's with an unwanted pregnancy could leave her newborn to be given up for adoption.
Very well said. I posted something, although not nearly as articulate, which essentially said the same thing as your post.
The doctor gets charged with 1st degree murder and get life in prison or the death penalty, depending on the state the crime was committed in.
Jail time for the woman is not nearly as effective as jail time for the person performing the abortion.
You GOT it kiddo. Most abortions are done under coercion or pressure. In fact, the very reality that abortions exist acts as a coercion of sorts because many of the woman’s friends, co-workers and so on will suggest it even if she has no desire to do it at all. It’s very complicated.
Think of our daughter, if you have one. When you make it personal, it’s a lot easier to be merciful.
If an unborn child has the same right to life as a newborn, then the penalty should be the same. A woman who hired a hitman to murder her newborn baby would do some jail time. Evidence of coersion should be taken account for mitigation purposes, but letting the mother walk away scot free treats women like children and encourages home abortions.
Oops “our” should mean “Your.” Don’t want to start any ugly rumors here on FR (ha ha).
Oy. What can a person say to you? Are you that hard-hearted? When I think of some of the nefarious ways a woman becomes pregnant; and think of how women can be so vulnerable to coercion, etc., to equate hiring a hit man to kill a baby with her seeking to get rid of it seems a little ludicrous.
It’s an obvious trap. Even most ardent pro-lifers wouldn’t seek a penalty against the woman.
I had not really thought about this before but if an unborn child is recognized as such then it would be the same as a mother standing by , and letting someone kill her birthed child. The penalty...well...that’s what juries are for.
I really don’t see this as a problem though. It is against the law to kill your kids now and almost none do. If abortions become illegal then we are probably only looking at rare cases.
I was thinking something more along the lines of conspiracy to commit murder, as though she was hiring a hitman to kill a husband. The abortionist is the actual murderer.
As with any criminal charge, matters of extenuation and mitigation should be taken into account during sentencing once guilt has been established.
That’s the point of the question.
The asker intends that abortion remain completely legal, in any and all circumstances, and even paid for by people who oppose it.
The answer is - there will be no crime to punish if there is no provider willing to do the crime.
You bring up a not-uncommon argument used by the pro-abortion community. They use it to elicit sympathy, but mostely, they would like us to be afraid of being accused of hating women or trying to control them and their sexuality.
In fact, we see human life as something to be protected and we abhor discrimination. We don’t discriminate between who is and who is not human enough to protect from intentional killing when they are not a threat to life.
The woman is guilty of self-harm, as well as causing the death of her child. We no longer treat attempted suicide and self-mutilation as criminal offenses, but as the result of mental disorders. Those who perform abortions on themselves truly do so “privately.” The State - our society - has a responsibility to treat these women to prevent them from being a danger to themselves.
How do we treat women who kill their child just after birth? Again, the punishments often take into account the state of mind of the woman.
The State regulates medical practice, however. The act of abortion for medical reasons should be treated as a medical procedure. If there is no medical reason - the risk of the life of the mother or permanent physical harm - the abortion should be treated as other homicides are treated.
On the other hand, if you arrange a murder, making an appointment with the killer, then drive the victim to the arranged spot to be killed, you're certainly an accomplice to murder at the very least, and not a victim.
It’s always a pleasure to read intelligent and well-thought-out replies/posts on FR.
I have both a son and a daughter and have raised both not to be criminals. If one were to kill their child before or after birth they would have to be punished.
Well, in the case of a hit man hiring, if the act is not consummated then it was conspiracy to commit if not attempted murder. However, if a contract killing is carried out, then the hiring person is is indicted as a first degree murderer. Paying someone else to pull the trigger doesn’t let one off the hook. In my approach, the extenuation is provided by the redeuction of a 1st degree charge down to manslaughter. As for the contract killer, let him or her fry in old sparky with a dry sponge.
For the doctor: 25 years to life - it is vulgar premediation on the doctor’s part. For scum like Tiller the Baby Killer in Kansas, there is a special place in hell for people like that.
As to the mother, that’s more difficult as it depends on the circumstances. If the abortion is due to the convenience of the mother, the punishment should be severe (25+ years). If it is a case of (PROVEN rape - not just saying it), 30 days might be approptiate.
ANY woman who has a second abortion for ANY reason: life.
How do the pro-abortion advocates know that there were millions and millions of women who had illegal abortions? How did they “catch” them?
Again, the act of self mutilation or attempted suicide is something that any of us can do. How do we “catch” the people who do this? How do we treat them?
>> Yeah, thats what I was thinking too. The woman has to live with herself for the rest of her life, the doctor gets whatever a murder charge carries in that state. That will dry up the supply of people who will do abortions pretty quickly.
... as would lesser prison time (and charges) for the doctor, coupled with a huge fine and loss of medical license.
The “elephant in the living room” is this: abortion is big business. HUGE business. Greed more than ideology has destroyed the spirit of the hippocratic oath for the medical profession.
The Texas statute overtunned by Roe, V. Wade only punished the abortionist. Ironically, only the abortionist who joined his case with Roe’s got relief.
In truth, many studies show that women who have had abortions have life long mental disorders stemming from their abortions.
Other than rape, a woman chooses to engage in activity to become pregnant. Adult women are not children, and are capable of making rational decisions. Rape would be a mitigating factor, presumedly.
Look, the reality is that chance that women will be put in jail for having an abortion is nil. However, it is a logical contradiction that somehow if a woman who is 39 weeks pregnant hires a doctor to perform a partial birth abortion she should be off the hook but if she hires someone to murder her day old newborn she should serve 20 years in prison. It means that despite the rhetoric, even most pro-lifers do not see the unborn as having the same status as those who are born.
Next time you read about a serial murderer or a thief, think of your son.
We do have to make laws that are applicable to everyone’s son and daughter - and with a “there but for the grace of G_d go I” attitude - both for the victim(s) and the guilty. However, we shouldn’t decide on the enforcement of law on a case-by-case or emotional basis.
Well...I don't have time to look it up now, but I believe that might vary from state to state...
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