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Ammunition shortage squeezes police
The Indy Channel ^ | 08/17/07 | ESTES THOMPSON

Posted on 08/17/2007 11:45:28 AM PDT by Abathar

Troops training for and fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are firing more than 1 billion bullets a year, contributing to ammunition shortages hitting police departments nationwide and preventing some officers from training with the weapons they carry on patrol.

An Associated Press review of dozens of police and sheriff's departments found that many are struggling with delays of as long as a year for both handgun and rifle ammunition. And the shortages are resulting in prices as much as double what departments were paying just a year ago.

"There were warehouses full of it. Now, that isn't the case," said Al Aden, police chief in Pierre, S.D.

Departments in all parts of the country reported delays or reductions in training and, in at least one case, a proposal to use paint-ball guns in firing drills as a way to conserve real ammo.

Forgoing proper, repetitive weapons training comes with a price on the streets, police say, in diminished accuracy, quickness on the draw and basic decision-making skills.

"You are not going to be as sharp or as good, especially if an emergency situation comes up," said Sgt. James MacGillis, range master for the Milwaukee police. "The better-trained officer is the one that is less likely to use force."

The pinch is blamed on a skyrocketing demand for ammunition that followed the start of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, driven by the training needs of a military at war, and, ironically, police departments raising their own practice regiments following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The increasingly voracious demand for copper and lead overseas, especially in China, has also been a factor.

The military is in no danger of running out because it gets the overwhelming majority of its ammunition from a dedicated plant outside Kansas City. But police are at the mercy of commercial manufacturers.

None of the departments surveyed by the AP said they had pulled guns off the street, and many departments reported no problems buying ammunition. But others told the AP they face higher prices and months-long delays.

In Oklahoma City, for example, officers cannot qualify with AR-15 rifles because the department does not have enough .223-caliber ammunition — a round similar to that fired by the military's M-16 and M4 rifles. Last fall, an ammunition shortage forced the department to cancel qualification courses for several different guns.

"We've got to teach the officers how to use the weapon, and they've got to be able to go to the range and qualify with the weapon and show proficiency," said department spokesman Capt. Steve McCool. "And you can't do that unless you have the rounds."

In Milwaukee, supplies of .40-caliber handgun bullets and .223-caliber rifle rounds have gotten so low the department has repeatedly dipped into its ammunition reserves. Some weapons training has already been cut by 30 percent, and lessons on rifles have been altered to conserve bullets.

Unlike troops in an active war zone, patrol officers rarely fire their weapons in the line of duty. Even then, an officer in a firefight isn't likely to shoot more than a dozen rounds, said Asheville, N.C., police training officer Lt. Gary Gudac. That, he said, makes training with live ammunition for real-life situations — such as a vehicle stop — so essential.

"We spend a lot of money and time making sure the officers are able to shoot a moving target or shoot back into a vehicle," Gudac said. "Any time we have a deadly force encounter, one of the first things we pull is the officer's qualification records."

In Trenton, N.J., a lack of available ammunition led the city to give up plans to convert its force to .45-caliber handguns. Last year, the sheriff's department in Bergen County, N.J., had to borrow 26,000 rounds of .40-caliber ammunition to complete twice-a-year training for officers.

"Now we're planning at least a year and a half, even two years in advance," said Bergen County Detective David Macey, a firearms examiner.

In Phoenix, an order for .38-caliber rounds placed a year ago has yet to arrive, meaning no officer can currently qualify with a .38 Special revolver.

"We got creative in how we do in training," said Sgt. Bret Draughn, who supervises the department's ammunition purchases. "We had to cut out extra practice sessions. We cut back in certain areas so we don't have to cut out mandatory training."

In Wyoming, the state leaned on its ammunition suppler earlier this year so every state trooper could qualify on the standard-issue AR-15 rifle, said Capt. Bill Morse. Rifle rounds scheduled to arrive in January did not show up until May, leading to a rush of troopers trying to qualify by the deadline.

"We didn't (initially) have enough ammunition to qualify everybody in the state," Morse said.

In Indianapolis, police spokesman Lt. Jeff Duhamell said the department has enough ammunition for now, but is considering using paint balls during a two-week training course, during which recruits fire normally fire about 1,000 rounds each.

"It's all based on the demands in Iraq," Duhamell said. "A lot of the companies are trying to keep up with the demands of the war and the demands of training police departments. The price increased too — went up 15 to 20 percent — and they were advising us ... to order as much as you can."

Higher prices are common. In Madison, Wis., police Sgt. Lauri Schwartz said the city spent $40,000 on ammunition in 2004, a figure that rose to $53,000 this year. The department is budgeting for prices 22 percent higher in 2008. In Arkansas, Fort Smith police now pay twice as much as they did last year for 500-round cases of .40-caliber ammunition.

"We really don't have a lot of choices," Cpl. Mikeal Bates said. "In our profession, we have to have it."

The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Mo., directly supplies the military with more than 80 percent of its small-arms ammunition. Production at the factory has more than tripled since 2002, rising from roughly 425 million rounds that year to 1.4 billion rounds in 2006, according to the Joint Munitions Command at the Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois.

Most of the rest of the military's small-arms ammunition comes from Falls Church, Va.-based General Dynamics Corp., which relies partly on subcontractors — some of whom also supply police departments. Right now, their priority is filling the military's orders, said Darren Newsom, general manager of The Hunting Shack in Stevensville, Mont., which ships 250,000 rounds a day as it supplies ammunition to 3,000 police departments nationwide.

"There's just a major shortage on ammo in the U.S. right now," he said, pointing to his current backorder for 2.5 million rounds of .223-caliber ammunition. "It's just terrible."

Police say the .223-caliber rifle round is generally the hardest to find. Even though rounds used by the military are not exactly the same as those sold to police, they are made from the same metals and often using the same equipment.

Alliant Techsystems Inc., which runs the Lake City plant for the Army, also produced more than 5 billion rounds for hunting and police use last year, making the Edina, Minn.-based company the country's largest ammunition manufacturer. Spokesman Bryce Hallowell questioned whether the Iraq war had a direct effect on the ammunition available to police, but said there was no doubt that surging demand was affecting supply.

"We had looked at this and didn't know if it was an anomaly or a long-term trend," Hallowell said. "We started running plants 24/7. Now we think it is long-term, so we're going to build more production capability."

That unrelenting demand for ammunition will continue to put a premium on planning ahead, said Maricopa County, Ariz., Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who so far has kept his department from experiencing any shortage-related problems.

"If we have a problem, I'll go make an issue of it — if I have to go to Washington or the military," Arpaio said. "That is a serious thing ... if you don't have the firepower to protect the public and yourself."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist
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Maybe the price of metals has more of the price jump than the war does. All alloys have risen termendously in the last year, I about choked on the price of new brass last time I priced it.
1 posted on 08/17/2007 11:45:30 AM PDT by Abathar
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To: Abathar

Glad I can reload everything I shoot. Especially since I have a lot of various kinds of bullets stockpiled.


2 posted on 08/17/2007 11:49:33 AM PDT by jim_trent
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To: Abathar

First, most police departments do not practice enough with their most important tool.

Second, military ammunition is in short supply, but for someone to say they wait months is laughable and indicative of incompetence in that agency.

Lastly, reloading is a viable alternative. Departments can hire private individuals to reload ammunition for them at a greatly reduced cost. Of course, that flies in the face of most liberal police departments.


3 posted on 08/17/2007 11:51:36 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: jim_trent

I have a good stockpile, but I prefer to LIFO my ammo to keep the supply at the same level.


4 posted on 08/17/2007 11:52:41 AM PDT by Abathar (Proudly catching hell for posting without reading the article since 2004)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Abathar

I think there are multiple factors for the ammo price hike and shortages. The UN is screwing the surplus ammo market, and the metal prices are affecting all sectors of the market. I doubt if the increased military demand is actually causing shortages of .38 Special, except in cases where factories are switching production to military calibers.

The ammo price hikes that affect me personally are the shortages of cheap 8mm Mauser and 9mm Luger. A few years ago, the cheapest 8mm was .05/rd. Those days are gone forever, and bulk 9mm surplus is a thing of the past.


6 posted on 08/17/2007 11:55:24 AM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: Erik Latranyi
but for someone to say they wait months is laughable and indicative of incompetence in that agency.

Yep. I just checked the Ammoman website and he's stocked to the rafters with .2223/5.56mm ammo both commercial and military manufacture.

He also seems to be stocked up with .40 caliber as well.

I've done business with this outfit and ever time I've ordered something it arrives on time and as promised.

L

7 posted on 08/17/2007 11:55:58 AM PDT by Lurker (Comparing moderate islam to extremist islam is like comparing small pox to ebola.)
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To: Erik Latranyi
The article says that military ammo is made in different plants, and it isn’t in demand there. I can’t believe that stuff like .45 and .38 special is getting so hard to find though. I assume they have to buy through approved suppliers also, unlike us who can shop around for a few boxes, they are ordering 40K plus at a time, and there isn’t that many places to go to get that kind of volume.
8 posted on 08/17/2007 11:56:10 AM PDT by Abathar (Proudly catching hell for posting without reading the article since 2004)
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To: Abathar

Bush’s fault.


9 posted on 08/17/2007 11:56:54 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Fred Dalton Thompson - POTUS 44)
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To: Abathar

The police don’t need ammo.

We should withdraw them off the streets and into the police stations.

After all, we have a quagmire out there, we are losing 150 police officers a year on the streets of America and we are not seeing any improvement, we have lost the war on crime, so it is time to bring the police home, we cannot allow any more deaths to occur.

Perhaps the government should cut off the funding for their police vehicles..


10 posted on 08/17/2007 11:57:52 AM PDT by Wil H (Islam translates to "submission", not "peace" - you can figure out the rest.)
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To: Lurker
The cheaper stuff is out there if you're willing to use Wolf. It's harder (and more expensive) to find cheaper brass-cased ammo.

(My AKs are still cheap to feed when plinking. I have to ration myself with my AR, however...)

11 posted on 08/17/2007 11:59:49 AM PDT by Jonah Hex ("How'd you get that scar, mister?" "Nicked myself shaving.")
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To: Abathar
An Associated Press review of dozens of police and sheriff's departments found that many are struggling with delays of as long as a year for both handgun and rifle ammunition.

Hell, I can pump out 500rds of handgun ammo an hour and about half that in 12GA ammo. I don't have a problem getting it.

12 posted on 08/17/2007 12:00:21 PM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Lurker
Yep. I just checked the Ammoman website and he's stocked to the rafters with .2223/5.56mm ammo both commercial and military manufacture.

Incompetence is the word that descibes police departments claiming they are waiting up to a year for ammunition.

13 posted on 08/17/2007 12:01:00 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: Abathar
I assume they have to buy through approved suppliers also, unlike us who can shop around for a few boxes, they are ordering 40K plus at a time, and there isn’t that many places to go to get that kind of volume.

They do not *HAVE* to buy through certain suppliers unless you are trying to give kickbacks to political supporters.

Ammunition is available. You just have to be a little more creative to find it.

14 posted on 08/17/2007 12:02:16 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: Lurker

Thanks for the link - the prices look pretty good; I’ll have to explore further... ;-)


15 posted on 08/17/2007 12:02:23 PM PDT by andy58-in-nh (There are two kinds of people: those who get it, and those who need to.)
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To: Abathar
Bought some Winchester 12GA shells at out local community yard sale today. 4 bucks a box. Not to bad.
16 posted on 08/17/2007 12:04:11 PM PDT by 4yearlurker (All comments now being monitored by BOR. He's looking out for you!)
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To: Jonah Hex
The cheaper stuff is out there if you're willing to use Wolf.

Unfortunately, Wolf is imported. That prevents many departments from buying it as they have a "buy American" clause in their city.

However, other domestic sources are readily available.

17 posted on 08/17/2007 12:04:34 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: Abathar

Will these help?

18 posted on 08/17/2007 12:04:47 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: 4yearlurker

I get mine where my wife’s friend works, Meijers. She gets 10% off any non food item, on top of sale price. I rarely pay over 4$ for all I want, just got to shop the sales.


19 posted on 08/17/2007 12:06:54 PM PDT by Abathar (Proudly catching hell for posting without reading the article since 2004)
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To: dfwgator

She is getting as popular as Rage Boy around here.....


20 posted on 08/17/2007 12:08:12 PM PDT by Abathar (Proudly catching hell for posting without reading the article since 2004)
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To: Abathar
Can we borrow your wife's friend for the weekend?

;-)

21 posted on 08/17/2007 12:08:14 PM PDT by Jonah Hex ("How'd you get that scar, mister?" "Nicked myself shaving.")
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To: Erik Latranyi

Police could reload brass for practice rounds only...quality control is too important to risk a Policeman’s life

Combat ammunition the same thing...every round must be the Best America can deliver...period...we have so cut back our “MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX” WOW THE EVIL OF SUCH INSTITUTIONS THAT HAVE KEPT AMERICA FREE, AND THE MOST FORMIDABLE MILITARY ON THE PLANET!


22 posted on 08/17/2007 12:08:34 PM PDT by Turborules
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To: Jonah Hex
She has saved us literally hundreds, if not thousands of dollars lately. A couple of weeks ago they discontinued a HP laptop, I can't remember the model number, it's at home. We got the thing brand new in the box (it was the demo sitting behind a locked glass case, but I couldn't even find a fingerprint) for $265. It was $799 on line when I priced it out.

I paid for dinner that night....

23 posted on 08/17/2007 12:13:01 PM PDT by Abathar (Proudly catching hell for posting without reading the article since 2004)
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To: Turborules

Part of the Clinton plan to affect firearm owners was to kill the ammunition industry.

They started by supressing all military purchases to drive everyone but the biggest producers out of the industry possible.

Then they allowed the import of cheap, foreign surplus ammunition to drive the prices down. Again, this forced domestic makers into bankruptcy.

Now that the military is using a large volume, there are very few remaining domestic suppliers. Those still in operation are stretched to supply both domestic and military needs.


24 posted on 08/17/2007 12:15:54 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: andy58-in-nh

I just ordered several thousand rounds of 9mm and .40 from them, after someone here had a link, and I was extremely satisfied. Prices are good, delivery was lickedy split.

Excellent business.


25 posted on 08/17/2007 12:17:21 PM PDT by dashing doofus (Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber)
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To: dashing doofus

Thanks, I’ll check ‘em out. I need to stock up on .45ACP, and it’s getting pretty pricey around here.


26 posted on 08/17/2007 12:20:05 PM PDT by andy58-in-nh (There are two kinds of people: those who get it, and those who need to.)
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To: Erik Latranyi
Second, military ammunition is in short supply, but for someone to say they wait months is laughable and indicative of incompetence in that agency.

They have been busy buying donuts, then you come along and shoot holes in their story. LOL

27 posted on 08/17/2007 12:20:46 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: Erik Latranyi
First, most police departments do not practice enough with their most important tool.

Their brains?.......

28 posted on 08/17/2007 12:21:52 PM PDT by Red Badger (All I know about Minnesota, I learned from Garrison Keilor..................)
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To: Lurker

I don’t believe there is a “shortage” of ammo. I do believe there is a shortage of “inexpensive” ammo..............


29 posted on 08/17/2007 12:23:05 PM PDT by Red Badger (All I know about Minnesota, I learned from Garrison Keilor..................)
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To: org.whodat
They have been busy buying donuts, then you come along and shoot holes in their story.

They are buying everything BUT what is needed to perform their job properly....like firearm training, pursuit driving, etc

30 posted on 08/17/2007 12:23:31 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: Abathar
None of the departments surveyed by the AP said they had pulled guns off the street,

They need to have a gun "buy-back" if they want to get those guns off the street.

/sarc

31 posted on 08/17/2007 12:24:26 PM PDT by Disambiguator (What's the temperature, Albert?)
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To: jim_trent
"Glad I can reload everything I shoot. Especially since I have a lot of various kinds of bullets stockpiled."

Amen to that. I maintain a stockpile of components as well. I fear that the anti-gunners in government are soon going to put pressure on handloaders under the guise of anti-terrorisim. I also expect them to start in on "stockpilers" too.

I'd be willing to contribute ammo to local police for practice, but they wouldn't accept it. I've always been one to be supportive and grateful to LEOs, but I'm becoming fearful that they may become the armed wing of our Marxist party.

32 posted on 08/17/2007 12:26:09 PM PDT by VR-21
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To: andy58-in-nh

Yeah. .45 is getting really expensive to practice with. I don’t reload, so I practice with 9mm, and less often with .40.

I found Rileys has some excellent prices on ball ammo in 9mm, but not sure about .45 ACP.


33 posted on 08/17/2007 12:27:50 PM PDT by dashing doofus (Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber)
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To: Erik Latranyi
To state they are short of .40S&W is an indictment of the city/county procurement department.

There is absolutely NO SHORTAGE of said ammunition. I can go out today and buy 100 boxes off the shelf.

What MAY be the problem is that same procurement dept is "negotiating" on the price...and that's not going to drop anytime soon. We are all stocking up.

34 posted on 08/17/2007 12:28:53 PM PDT by Mariner
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To: Abathar
supplies of .40-caliber handgun bullets and .223-caliber rifle rounds have gotten so low

.40 cal is not a military caliber. They can't blame the war.

Other than kicking down doors and murdering 90 year old women in cold blood, why do the police need .223? The AR-15 and it's variants can easily be fitted with an adapter that will allow target qualification using .22LR ammo. I qualified using this ammo twice when I was active duty.

35 posted on 08/17/2007 12:30:26 PM PDT by CholeraJoe ("I shall need the clankers.")
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To: andy58-in-nh
I need to stock up on .45ACP, and it’s getting pretty pricey around here.

Amen to that, just picked some .45 ACP at Wally-world for .28c rd. Only good for plinking but with brass at .20c it's good for shoot and reload with good JHP.

36 posted on 08/17/2007 12:30:32 PM PDT by Current Occupant (IF YOU ABANDON CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES, ARE YOU STILL A CONSERVATIVE?!)
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To: Abathar
Police departments need to get together and buy truckloads of each caliber. When you approach a manufacturer with truckload sized orders the price goes down and shipping dates shorten.
37 posted on 08/17/2007 12:34:39 PM PDT by B4Ranch ( "Freedom is not free, but don't worry the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share.")
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To: dashing doofus

Riley’s .45 Auto/FMJ is not that cheap (Blazer Brass, for the most part). I’m still going to Wal-Mart for Winchester 100-rd. boxes, but they’ve been around $29 lately. I’ll try not to think about the price when I’m at the range in ManchVegas tomorrow.


38 posted on 08/17/2007 12:35:02 PM PDT by andy58-in-nh (There are two kinds of people: those who get it, and those who need to.)
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To: B4Ranch

I agree, it works like that for everything else.


39 posted on 08/17/2007 12:36:43 PM PDT by Abathar (Proudly catching hell for posting without reading the article since 2004)
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To: Erik Latranyi
just got my latest copy of the “Cheaper Than Dirt” mailer.

They advertise (and they are not the cheapest around) Lake City .223 at a Buyer’s Club price of $7.99 per box of 20. Thats 39.95 cents per round. They have 840 rd cases of XM855 on stripper clips for BC $474.97. Thats 56.54 cents per round.

Wolf ( wouldn’t shoot a pit bull with that) at $4.51 per box of 20. Thats 22.55 cents per round.

Maybe some police departments need to look elsewhere for ammo.

40 posted on 08/17/2007 12:39:26 PM PDT by PeteB570 (Guns, what real men want for Christmas)
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To: Abathar
Maybe the price of metals has more of the price jump than the war does. All alloys have risen termendously in the last year, I about choked on the price of new brass last time I priced it.

War and the welfare state are inflationary. The Republicans are expanding both.

41 posted on 08/17/2007 12:46:08 PM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: Erik Latranyi
First, most police departments do not practice enough with their most important tool.

A firearm is their most important tool? Strikes me as kind of odd in a free society.

42 posted on 08/17/2007 12:46:34 PM PDT by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government, Benito Guilinni a short man in search of a balcony)
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To: Abathar
I've got to call BS on this article.

Metal shortages causing prices to go up, sure. Maybe metal shortage translating into shortages of ammo, maybe.

But the article ADMITS that the military gets most of its rounds from a specific manufacturer. How could that affect other, commerical manufacturers? They're not all getting their raw materials from the same sources. And if they are, then they need to be looking for other sources.

I'm wondering about the billion round number. That's a thousand million. Strikes me as awfully high, but I don't know what training requirements are. What about military stockpiles - or have we burned through them already?

43 posted on 08/17/2007 12:46:56 PM PDT by wbill
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To: Wil H

They should be redeployed to Okinawa or Guam.


44 posted on 08/17/2007 12:51:31 PM PDT by ASA Vet
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To: jim_trent
I'm reloading just about everything except carry ammo and 7.62x39.

If this keeps up, I'm going to start mining the range's berm for lead and casting my own boolets.

45 posted on 08/17/2007 12:52:21 PM PDT by AngryJawa ({IDPA, NRA} GO HUNTER '08)
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To: Lurker

Anyone shot that M193 SM in their RR AR?

Results?
Comments?
Value?


46 posted on 08/17/2007 12:56:32 PM PDT by woollyone (whyquit.com ...if you think you can't quit, you're simply not informed yet.)
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To: AngryJawa

I already do. Have a total of about 1,500lbs of pure lead, monotype, and WW and a couple of dozen moulds. The stockpiled bullets are only jacketed ones.

Don’t have a problem with powder, either. Just hope primers don’t disappear like they did when BillyBoy got the anti-gunowner bills passed between 1992 and 1994. I had a lot in stock, but ran out of one kind.


47 posted on 08/17/2007 12:58:40 PM PDT by jim_trent
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To: woollyone
I put a bunch of the mil-surp green tip from Ammoman through my RR AR.

No problems or issues with it.

Like I said above, I've done business with him and have no complaints.

L

48 posted on 08/17/2007 1:01:47 PM PDT by Lurker (Comparing moderate islam to extremist islam is like comparing small pox to ebola.)
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To: Erik Latranyi
I could not agree more...thank God for the Honorable John Roberts Court the 2nd Amendment is much stronger...keep our eyes on the dims is only defense from their tyranny...

FR is not a Hate Site it is a Truth Site!

49 posted on 08/17/2007 1:04:27 PM PDT by Turborules
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To: from occupied ga
A firearm is their most important tool? Strikes me as kind of odd in a free society.

I'm sure you think their most important tool is the "Sexual Harassment" manual they carry!

50 posted on 08/17/2007 1:06:50 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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