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Should God go to the ballgame?
LA Times ^ | August 18, 2007 | Tom Krattenmaker

Posted on 08/18/2007 1:28:34 AM PDT by shrinkermd

On Sunday, Christian baseball fans will stream into Dodger Stadium for what is becoming more common fare at professional ballparks across the country -- "faith day."

Following the Dodgers vs. Rockies game, fans with special tickets will gather in a corner of the parking lot for a concert by the Christian rock band Hawk Nelson, an appearance by characters from the "Veggie Tales" Christian television program and testimonials by several devout Dodgers. The purpose, according to event organizer Brent High, is to promote the Gospel of Jesus.

...Critics of the Christianizing of pro sports -- including interfaith groups, Jewish leaders and secular progressives -- have voiced reservations about the seemingly ever-closer relationship between evangelical sports ministries and major professional sports teams. Frequent on-field religious gestures by players already rankle many -- does it really honor God to knock the snot of your opponent on the football field and then point to the sky? And shout-outs to God during live post-game interviews offend those fans who would prefer to enjoy their sports without a dose of in-your-face religion.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: baseball; christians; dodgers; faithday; god; mlb; separation
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Does not the Constitution specify a separation of God and baseball? Someone better get SCOTUS involved before it is too late. (sarc)
1 posted on 08/18/2007 1:28:36 AM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd
Liberals are upset people want a little worship at a baseball game! Go figure.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

2 posted on 08/18/2007 1:32:51 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: shrinkermd
On Sunday, Christian baseball fans will stream into Dodger Stadium for what is becoming more common fare at professional ballparks across the country -- "faith day."

Do people have to parade their religion ALL the time?

Yes, I'm aware of what I'm setting myself up for here. But whatever happened to praying behind closed doors, and not wearing your religion on your sleeve, but living your life as a person of faith?

It's the people who are always telling everyone how faithful they are who are the ones who usually have something to hide. In my experience, the people who are the truly religious do so without all this "Look at me!" stuff at non-religious occassions.

3 posted on 08/18/2007 1:35:59 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: shrinkermd

Do they even allow FCA (Fellowship of Christian Atheletes) in Highschool any more?


4 posted on 08/18/2007 1:36:15 AM PDT by SShultz460
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To: Darkwolf377

1 game out of 81 isn’t wearing your faith on a sleeve.

Good Luck


5 posted on 08/18/2007 1:37:31 AM PDT by SShultz460
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To: SShultz460
Do they even allow FCA (Fellowship of Christian Atheletes) in Highschool any more?

They do here in VA....

If this article was about some muzzie group, it would read how government and management weren't bending over and grabbing their ankles to provide the devout with prayer rugs and foot baths....

6 posted on 08/18/2007 1:49:22 AM PDT by dirtbiker (I tried to see things from the liberal point-of-view, but I couldn't get my head up my a$$...)
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To: shrinkermd

Sept. 18th and the Cubs are in 1st place.
GOD is hanging around Wrigley.
GO CUBS.


7 posted on 08/18/2007 1:52:08 AM PDT by Joe Boucher (An enemy of Islam)
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To: Joe Boucher

I’m still glad you have Jaques Jones and not my Twins :)


8 posted on 08/18/2007 1:55:49 AM PDT by SShultz460
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To: shrinkermd

I think within the cultural milieu that gave us our founding documents, which acknowledged our Creator, God’s commands would have been taken seriously, including the fourth one.


9 posted on 08/18/2007 1:58:13 AM PDT by Lexinom (http://www.gohunter08.com Don't let the press pick our candidates)
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To: shrinkermd; goldstategop; Darkwolf377; SShultz460; dirtbiker; Joe Boucher
Does not the Constitution specify a separation of God and baseball?

One, there is no such phrase in the US Constitution. Two, even if there were, the free exercise clause guarantees the right to publicly express religious views and practice religion. Of course this depends on having judges who can understant the plain meaning of the Constitution as written instead of of emanations an penumbras caused by bad acid trips.

I'm sure the author would approve of gay days and multi-cultural days in which the culture and mores of Americans of European origin are mocked.

10 posted on 08/18/2007 1:58:40 AM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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To: Darkwolf377
The problem is that Christendom has been largely swallowed by popular culture. To live what one believes would be to "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy, to not do any work" incl. spending money so others can work on the Lord's Day. And dressing modestly. And speaking softly. And becoming better educated in the liberal (small-l) sense and re-taking the positions of influence and high culture.

That would be living it.

What we have here is a sad cultural phenomenon that is nonetheless, judging by the historical standard of the Old Testament with repeated falling away by the Jews, nothing new.

This "faith day" is not what Christianity is about. It is about ink, paper, water, bread, wine, and the ultimate act of love. "For greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

11 posted on 08/18/2007 2:05:10 AM PDT by Lexinom (http://www.gohunter08.com Don't let the press pick our candidates)
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To: shrinkermd
does it really honor God to knock the snot of your opponent on the football field and then point to the sky?

It highly honors God to use your God-Given talents to their best!

12 posted on 08/18/2007 2:08:35 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Darkwolf377
But whatever happened to praying behind closed doors, and not wearing your religion on your sleeve, but living your life as a person of faith?

Whatever happened to freedom of religion? Freedom of Assimulation?

Following the Dodgers vs. Rockies game, fans with special tickets will gather in a corner of the parking lot for a concert by the Christian rock band Hawk Nelson, an appearance by characters from the "Veggie Tales" Christian television program and testimonials by several devout Dodgers.

BTW... did you notice this was AFTER the game? It required SPECIAL TICKETS to attend?

13 posted on 08/18/2007 2:13:56 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: Lexinom
The problem is that Christendom has been largely swallowed by popular culture. To live what one believes would be to "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy, to not do any work" incl. spending money so others can work on the Lord's Day. And dressing modestly. And speaking softly. And becoming better educated in the liberal (small-l) sense and re-taking the positions of influence and high culture. That would be living it.

Precisely. What stops the faithful from doing all that you describe? Nothing that I can see.

What we have here is a sad cultural phenomenon that is nonetheless, judging by the historical standard of the Old Testament with repeated falling away by the Jews, nothing new.

Yeah, the culture at large doesn't support the beliefs you note. But that doesn't prevent individuals from practicing them.

This "faith day" is not what Christianity is about. It is about ink, paper, water, bread, wine, and the ultimate act of love. "For greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Very well said.

14 posted on 08/18/2007 2:14:53 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: LowOiL
Whatever happened to freedom of religion? Freedom of Assimulation? BTW... did you notice this was AFTER the game? It required SPECIAL TICKETS to attend?

Calm down. Why all the YELLING?

Wherever did I question freedom of religion? Wherever did I questions freedom to assimilate? (And what does publicly parading one's religion have to do with assimilation?

So what if it's after the game and requires special tickets? What does that have to do with my point?

15 posted on 08/18/2007 2:16:42 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: SShultz460
1 game out of 81 isn’t wearing your faith on a sleeve.

I'm sure if it were Muslim Day people here would think so. ;)

16 posted on 08/18/2007 2:17:53 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: LowOiL

Opps

Assimulate wrong word..

Meant Assemble or associate.


17 posted on 08/18/2007 2:19:59 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: Darkwolf377
So what if it's after the game and requires special tickets? What does that have to do with my point?

Because you said "stuff at non-religious occassions". Thus the very reason I highlighted a couple of words in my post (which you got all huffy and claimed I yelled)...

It is not stuff at a non-religious occasion whatsoever... it is a special occasion that is totally seperate after a sports event.

Calm down. Why all the YELLING?

Your the one that need to calm down. Yelling is a post that is completely in caps.. Emphasising is using the upper case to make a point on a select word or phrase.

publicly parading one's religion

God forbid one be allowed to attend a special event after the game to worship freely. Others might think they are parading... Jesus should of only preached on the Sabbath and hid the rest of the week.


18 posted on 08/18/2007 2:32:56 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: Darkwolf377
So what if it's after the game and requires special tickets? What does that have to do with my point?

Because you said "stuff at non-religious occassions". Thus the very reason I highlighted a couple of words in my post (which you got all huffy and claimed I yelled)...

It is not stuff at a non-religious occasion whatsoever... it is a special occasion that is totally seperate after a sports event.

Calm down. Why all the YELLING?

Your the one that need to calm down. Yelling is a post that is completely in caps.. Emphasising is using the upper case to make a point on a select word or phrase.

publicly parading one's religion

God forbid one be allowed to attend a special event after the game to worship freely. Others might think they are parading... Jesus should of only preached on the Sabbath and hid the rest of the week.

19 posted on 08/18/2007 2:33:38 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: LowOiL

Your = You’re


20 posted on 08/18/2007 2:34:46 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: Darkwolf377

If it sold tickets I could careless.

Hell they seriously have knitting day at the ball park here.

Ultimately that’s what a baseball team wants to do, Put butts in the seats.

Who cares who they cater to on a home game? Now if it was Suicide Bomber Memorial Day at the park, that would be a different ball game.


21 posted on 08/18/2007 2:35:11 AM PDT by SShultz460
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To: LowOiL
Because you said "stuff at non-religious occassions". Thus the very reason I highlighted a couple of words in my post (which you got all huffy and claimed I yelled)...

How did I get all huffy? Forget it, I'm not interested.

So baseball rallies or whatever are religious occassions? Guess I missed that part at mass...

It is not stuff at a non-religious occasion whatsoever... it is a special occasion that is totally seperate after a sports event.

OK. And...?

Your the one that need to calm down.

Why? Have I been uncivil?

Yelling is a post that is completely in caps.. Emphasising is using the upper case to make a point on a select word or phrase.

Which you kept doing. Funny how you went from several times in one post to zero in this one, if it was merely emphasis and not yelling.

God forbid one be allowed to attend a special event after the game to worship freely. Others might think they are parading... Jesus should of only preached on the Sabbath and hid the rest of the week.

When did I say one not be allowed to attend any special event? When did I say one should be prevented from worshipping freely?

Answer: I didn't, but you have to imply I did to maintain your persecution pose.

I merely asked why people felt the need to parade their religion in non-religious situations. You can pretend I was attacking religion, if it makes you feel good to play the victim role, but I didn't do that.

You can just not answer my questions. No need to act all persecuted.

22 posted on 08/18/2007 2:37:38 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: SShultz460
Who cares who they cater to on a home game?

I only care to the extent that I'm curious about why people do this, that's all.

Now if it was Suicide Bomber Memorial Day at the park, that would be a different ball game.

Sure would bring new meaning to "sacrifice fly."

"They've got a man on second--OH, he just blowed up and took out the infield!"

23 posted on 08/18/2007 2:40:33 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: Paleo Conservative

Judges who fail to understand their jobs and jobs limitations are so numerous it hurts.


24 posted on 08/18/2007 2:40:48 AM PDT by Joe Boucher (An enemy of Islam)
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To: Darkwolf377
You can pretend I was attacking religion, if it makes you feel good to play the victim role, but I didn't do that. I will quote you from your first post ... below...

Yes, I'm aware of what I'm setting myself up for here.

You knew exactly what you were doing. You fully steamed head first into this... and yes you are attacking Christians.

25 posted on 08/18/2007 2:44:29 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: Lexinom

“Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy, to not do any work” incl. spending money so others can work on the Lord’s Day.”

Paul discussed this in the New Testament and said that keeping the Sabbath was not a requirement because we are not under the Law anymore, so that is not required to ‘live what one believes’.


26 posted on 08/18/2007 2:47:05 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: LowOiL

I will have to reply tommorrow... it is way past bedtime.


27 posted on 08/18/2007 2:47:26 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: LowOiL
You knew exactly what you were doing. You fully steamed head first into this...

Uh, yeah, that's why I wrote "Yes, I'm aware of what I'm setting myself up for here." Which you quoted. (?)

and yes you are attacking Christians.

LOL! Quote where I attacked Christians!

Go ahead--show the words I used to attack Christians, or apologize. Which you don't have the grace to do, I'm sure.

28 posted on 08/18/2007 2:47:27 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: LowOiL
"LowOiL"

Well-named. Down a couple of quarts, I'd say.

29 posted on 08/18/2007 2:48:10 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: Darkwolf377

At work we had a similar mental excercise a few years back during the World Cup.

I envisioned an Israel/Palestinean game where the Palestineans sent in a suicde bomber to take out the Israeli goalie to win the game.

As to your question of why people do it? Many faiths require/encourage public expressions of Faith. I always thought Christianity is one of those. The idea of Fellowship is strewn throughout everything I ever learned.

Think like those Falon Gong people, they could be all underground in China, but thier religion REQUIRES them to be open and practice thier faith in Public. Even if that means you are persecuted and killed.


30 posted on 08/18/2007 2:49:37 AM PDT by SShultz460
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To: Darkwolf377

Amen.

*Dons asbestos suit.*


31 posted on 08/18/2007 2:50:43 AM PDT by AntiKev ("No damage. The world's still turning isn't it?" - Stereo Goes Stellar - Blow Me A Holloway)
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To: Darkwolf377

When religion and the secular meet, religion almost always suffers.


32 posted on 08/18/2007 2:51:29 AM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: SShultz460
As to your question of why people do it? Many faiths require/encourage public expressions of Faith. I always thought Christianity is one of those. The idea of Fellowship is strewn throughout everything I ever learned. Think like those Falon Gong people, they could be all underground in China, but thier religion REQUIRES them to be open and practice thier faith in Public. Even if that means you are persecuted and killed.

Thanks for the info.

I know plenty of people who show their faith by publicly doing good works and publicly advocating prayer while they do it, publicly acknowledging their faith, etc. I know people who are openly and vocally Christian who work at a homeless shelter near me; someone I am very close to works at a hospice and is similarly very vocal about her religious motivation. THAT is what I consider being open and practicing their faith in public. THIS sort of thing nowhere in that ballpark, so to speak.

33 posted on 08/18/2007 2:53:25 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: durasell
When religion and the secular meet, religion almost always suffers.

Could you expand on that? Thanks.

34 posted on 08/18/2007 2:54:10 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: Darkwolf377

I wasn’t talking about you are driven to go to a ball game because you are a christian.

Area churches think going to a ballgame with your church group will build bonds (not barroid) within the group. If anything is the goal it’s that.

Oh and the Rockies, like any club, love group sales


35 posted on 08/18/2007 2:57:17 AM PDT by SShultz460
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To: Darkwolf377

Well, you have professional sports who say, “Hey, we’re selling tickets! Great!” And then you have the religious who say, “We’re bringing our message to a boatload of people! Great!”

A couple of things happen down the line:

A)The religious groups begin making demands that prove less than beneficial to the bottomline and the sports guys drop them like a bad habit.

B)The religious folks keep pandering via pop culture to what they perceive as an increasingly wider audience and in the process somehow forget the original message.

Just my opinion, but linking a “for profit” organizations with religion doesn’t seem a great strategy.


36 posted on 08/18/2007 2:59:25 AM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: SShultz460
I wasn’t talking about you are driven to go to a ball game because you are a christian. Area churches think going to a ballgame with your church group will build bonds (not barroid) within the group. If anything is the goal it’s that. Oh and the Rockies, like any club, love group sales

I understood your point. I understand why the club would want to do this. My interest, though, is in those who want to attend this thing as some kind of demonstration of their faith.

37 posted on 08/18/2007 3:00:08 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: durasell
Very well-stated.

Just my opinion, but linking a “for profit” organizations with religion doesn’t seem a great strategy.

It cheapens the religious faith to allow oneself to be used in this way, IMHO.

38 posted on 08/18/2007 3:01:38 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: LowOiL
"I will have to reply tommorrow... it is way past bedtime."

How utterly convenient for you--I call you out to prove your accusation of Christian-bashing, and suddenly it's bedtime.

39 posted on 08/18/2007 3:06:16 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: Darkwolf377

Right now there appears to be synergy. But the ultimate goals (pun intended) of professional sports teams are not the ultimate goals of those with faith.


40 posted on 08/18/2007 3:06:39 AM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: Darkwolf377
Go ahead--show the words I used to attack Christians, or apologize. Which you don't have the grace to do, I'm sure.

Quote below...

"But whatever happened to praying behind closed doors, and not wearing your religion on your sleeve"

This is a no brainer... you attacked Christians that dared show their faith outside of their home...

Nothing happened, Christians founded America so they could show their faith whenever and where ever they felt like it. Thomas Jefferson hired a band to play during a revival held in a public building once... Did he give a hoot if it offended you? The founder Benjamin Rush proudly proclaimed in congress --"I am neither... I'm a Christocrat" -- Show me exactly Biblically that a Christian is not to gather with other Christians? Did the revival meetings at the rivers to Baptize member occur in the dark or out in public as a testimony to all.

Basically you have made a veiled attempt to critise Christians that show themselves in public as they are without hiding their faith. You bushed off the FACT that this event was after the game and required special tickets (thus was not even within the context of the sports event).. and you have yet proven that to me or anyone else that Christians are to hide their true nature to others in public. What exactly gave you this impression?

41 posted on 08/18/2007 3:07:38 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: Darkwolf377
How utterly convenient for you--I call you out to prove your accusation of Christian-bashing, and suddenly it's bedtime.

Can you keep you comments civil please, thanks.

42 posted on 08/18/2007 3:10:19 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: LowOiL

Thomas Jefferson also edited the King James Bible — removing all the miracles (the guy couldn’t stop tinkering!). Does that offend you?


43 posted on 08/18/2007 3:10:20 AM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: LowOiL

Knocked THAT one outta the park! :)


44 posted on 08/18/2007 3:14:06 AM PDT by mkjessup (Jan 20, 2009 - "We Don't Know. Where Rudy Went. Just Glad He's Not. The President. Burma Shave.")
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To: LowOiL
This is a no brainer... you attacked Christians that dared show their faith outside of their home...

No, I didn't. What a pathetic attempt to smear someone who dared ask WHY people chose to do this.

The rest of your post is completely meaningless spin trying to couch my question as an attack.

You have a lot of nerve asking me to be civil after such a loathsome lie.

45 posted on 08/18/2007 3:15:02 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: durasell
Thomas Jefferson also edited the King James Bible — removing all the miracles (the guy couldn’t stop tinkering!). Does that offend you?

Did he remember to take this one out too...

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

He must of done that during one if his French visits. LOL..

46 posted on 08/18/2007 3:15:26 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: Darkwolf377

I didn’t read anything in there that said people are going there as demonstrations of faith. It’s not like they are replacing Mass with America’s Pastime.

When I was a kid we always went to Scout night at the Ball park.

Some of it was reinforcement as a group, but mostly it was cheap tickets and you more knew the environment you were taking your family to. Some of these people are crazy about the whole environment thing (both ways.) The author (I bet) hates seeing God mentioned anywhere especially to an audience. Hence the disgust for Dungee and all of this.

These people wouldn’t want to sit around me and my friends at a game. So they generally don’t go except maybe on faith night when I’m more likely to be at the pub cursing up a storm.


47 posted on 08/18/2007 3:15:57 AM PDT by SShultz460
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To: durasell
But the ultimate goals (pun intended) of professional sports teams are not the ultimate goals of those with faith.

Careful--you'll be called a Christian basher.

Thanks for your observations. Too bad there's always a smear-merchant like LowIntelligence--uh, LowOil who has to play martyr when people try to open up an interesting discussion.

48 posted on 08/18/2007 3:16:24 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Any Republicans around here?)
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To: mkjessup
Knocked THAT one outta the park! :)

Handicap pitcher... thanks

49 posted on 08/18/2007 3:17:56 AM PDT by LowOiL (Make youself a Duncan Hunter T-Shirt and wear it proudly to work...)
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To: LowOiL

You can google “Jefferson Bible” and several sites have the complete text.


50 posted on 08/18/2007 3:18:52 AM PDT by durasell (!)
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