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Russia showcases fighter jet developed for Indian Navy
The Economic Times,India ^ | 21 Aug, 2007

Posted on 08/22/2007 8:27:27 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki

Russia showcases fighter jet developed for Indian Navy

21 Aug, 2007, 1815 hrs IST, PTI

ZHUKOVSKY: Russia for the first time showcased the MiG-29K deck-based fighter specially developed for the Indian Navy at the 8th international aerospace show 'MAKS-2007', inaugurated by President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday.

MiG-29K and its fighter-trainer variant MiG-29KUB, showcased here at the local airbase near Moscow, is part of the USD 1.5 billion Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal and India is also expected to deploy them on the indigenous aircraft carriers under Advanced Air Defence Ship (ADS) project currently at an advanced development stage.

MiG-29K is equipped with modified Sea Wasp engines providing greater thrust in hot and humid tropical climate of the Indian Ocean for easy lift-off from short runways of aircraft carriers.

Eying the USD 9 billion contract for the delivery of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force, Russia's MiG Corporation has also fielded its favourite MiG-35 and MiG-29OVT with thrust vectoring engines.

Almost 800 aerospace companies from 46 countries, including Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and New Delhi-based Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace have put on static displays of their aircraft models and missiles.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: aerospace; armsbuildup; aviation; bigot; birdbrainedbigot; fighterjets; india; indianmilitary; mig29; mig29k; navair; russia
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Impression of Mig-29K in Indian navy colors

1 posted on 08/22/2007 8:27:29 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Not a bad looking bird.


2 posted on 08/22/2007 8:30:14 AM PDT by null and void (I hate to suggest something this radical, but why not let the policy follow the facts? ~ReignOfError)
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To: null and void

Purina Raptor Chow


3 posted on 08/22/2007 8:42:39 AM PDT by slapshot (""USAF- when you absolutely, positively need it delivered on target, on time, right away)
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To: slapshot

As long as the US doesn’t sell Raptors to China or Pakistan, or to third-parties that would sell them back to either of the two, there’s about zero chance of these planes going against Raptors. In fact, a high probability of these training with Raptors, exists.


4 posted on 08/22/2007 8:47:42 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

The Russians have invented an F-18! Awesome!


5 posted on 08/22/2007 9:04:44 AM PDT by T.Smith
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To: T.Smith

The basic design is as old as the F-18.


6 posted on 08/22/2007 9:07:50 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
The Super Hornet owns that arena. As a carrier capable platform the SH is the best out there. An old MIG29 potato reheated in a naval variant, cute. The SH has more range/endurance, more payload, lower RCS, more powerful radar, better avionics and is easily maintained. You’re lucky if you get effectively more than 500 hours on a power-plant with that MIG.
7 posted on 08/22/2007 9:14:54 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: slapshot

LOL! I love it.


8 posted on 08/22/2007 9:16:54 AM PDT by HeadOn (The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.)
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To: Red6

The Super Hornet is also heavier & more expensive.Serious considerations if you are on a medium size carrier with a ski-jump.Not to mention political factors-buy Yankee,the Deal is off!!

The only other aircraft seriously considered by India was the French Rafale M.


9 posted on 08/22/2007 9:22:48 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
The basic airplane was invented in 1903. I guess they all basically base their design on the wright flyer in some way, huh? You make a nonsense argument.

The SH is for all practical purposes a newer plane (Entered service in 1999), only based on a F18 with some commonality in parts.

10 posted on 08/22/2007 9:24:26 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

The original poster was referring to the Hornet-both the Fulcrum & Hornet were designed around the same period.I was responding to that.

Learn to read..


11 posted on 08/22/2007 9:26:26 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: slapshot

India isn’t purchasing them to defend against us .... we are no threat to India. India is developing it’s naval capability against Pakistan to the west (and her F-16’s) and China to it’s East and it’s expanding navy.

With that in mind, the MiG may not be a bad bird for it’s needs.


12 posted on 08/22/2007 9:32:09 AM PDT by Mac94
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To: sukhoi-30mki
Thrust to weight is about the same, so is wing loading. However, the SH has less swept wings and excellent low speed handling and stall charachteristsic. The F18 and SH were “designed” as carrier aircraft, for the MIG29 it’s an after thought. They are taking a land based platform with the MIG and trying to make it fit a new role it was never conceived for. With a SH you don't find stress franctures all over the place, most of the crap they claim about new engines for carrier ops is old hat that's even on a SH60 in the USN.

The SH is hands down the most capable carrier based platform anywhere today. The MIG29 is a Soviet attempt at building a cheap land based fighter comparable to a F16. A Cold War relict with short legs and quick turn around times and modest payload, this platform in a naval version is overtaxed.

13 posted on 08/22/2007 9:46:40 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

I don’t think anyone over here denies any of what you say.


14 posted on 08/22/2007 9:48:19 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Red6

I don’t think anyone over here denies any of what you say.


15 posted on 08/22/2007 9:48:21 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Mac94

Understand and need to be clearer.

Just sayin’ new migs in general will be raptor chow


16 posted on 08/22/2007 10:05:30 AM PDT by slapshot (""USAF- when you absolutely, positively need it delivered on target, on time, right away)
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To: Mac94

Understand and need to be clearer.

Just sayin’ new migs in general will be raptor chow


17 posted on 08/22/2007 10:05:33 AM PDT by slapshot (""USAF- when you absolutely, positively need it delivered on target, on time, right away)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

18 posted on 08/22/2007 10:12:56 AM PDT by klpt
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To: sukhoi-30mki; slapshot
The F18ski.

The Indians aren’t fighting F-22s. They’re fighting F-16s, Sukhois, and other MiGs - i.e. Pakistan and the PRC. The MiG-29 is more than adequate for the purpose. If the Indians train like the USAF does, they’ll mop the floor with their opponents.
I guess, the question remains, if the PRC and Pakistan are going to be able to develop their joint stealth fighter.

19 posted on 08/22/2007 10:16:50 AM PDT by Little Ray (Rudy Guiliani: If his wives can't trust him, why should we?)
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To: slapshot

Not just MiG’s, anything with rotars or wings in anyones service is Raptor bait right now ... from anything China, Russia, Europe, or everything else in our own inventory. No pane flying, regardless of who makes it or designed it can go head to head wth the Raptor.

In time that’ll change ... but not for awhile. It’s only weakness is when it’s sitting on the ground. Wheel’s up and it owns the skies.


20 posted on 08/22/2007 10:24:45 AM PDT by Mac94
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To: sukhoi-30mki

You should buy a French Rafale; newer design, RCS reduction measures included, better radar (eventually AESA), a plane that will be around for a long time..... If you decide to light a nuke in the future, or go to war with Pakistan for the same old reasons, you know you’ll get parts and support from the French. The French make a decent product that is NATO compatible. Most importantly the French are within the West bottom feeders. They are the ones most willing to make any deal with anyone for a buck. Libya, China, Iraq....... With the French as long as you can pay, they will deliver. Your Mirage 2000 purchase years ago is proof of that. A Rafale is no SH, but it’s better than a MIG29.


21 posted on 08/22/2007 10:31:12 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6
The MIG29 is a Soviet attempt at building a cheap land based fighter comparable to a F16.

Like the Northrop Aviation P-530 Cobra?

22 posted on 08/22/2007 10:36:25 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy
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To: magslinger

ping


23 posted on 08/22/2007 11:41:01 AM PDT by Vroomfondel
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To: Oztrich Boy

Ok, lets play a game, guess what the Soviet System is based on.

Easy to hard (What were these Russian systems inspired or based on?)-

TU160
SU25
AA12

The bonus question-

Which Russian radar was influenced by the AWG-9?

Hint, this radar had some of their first effective counter clutter and ECCM capabilities and must have come about after 1979, thanks to Iran.


24 posted on 08/22/2007 11:53:36 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Vroomfondel; SC Swamp Fox; Fred Hayek; NY Attitude; P3_Acoustic; Bean Counter; investigateworld; ...
SONOBUOY PING!

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Post or FReepmail me if you wish to be enlisted in or discharged from the Navair Pinglist.
This is a medium volume pinglist.

25 posted on 08/22/2007 1:18:22 PM PDT by magslinger (Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors. And miss. R.A.Heinlein)
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To: Red6; sukhoi-30mki

“You should buy a French Rafale; newer design, RCS reduction measures included, better radar (eventually AESA), a plane that will be around for a long time”
I highly doubt the Rafale will be around for a long time with anyone but the French themsselves. In fact the JSF may well be the death knell for the Rafale.
Regarding AESA well, I would think the Russians could make just as good AESA radars as the french going forward.

When we talk of NATO compatibility, isnt it more relevant for India’s fighters to be compatible with its own fleet of Su-30s?


26 posted on 08/22/2007 4:59:09 PM PDT by Arjun (Skepticism is good. It keeps you alive.)
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To: Arjun
NATO compatibility means basically all Western data-links, weapon systems, communications, targeting pods...... France, Germany, Canada, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Italy, UK, USA, Australia, Japan, S Korea....... If you want a plane that can’t carry a Sidewinder, IRIS-T, Meteor, ASRAAM, Python, AMRAAM, or much else, that Russian plane is fine. Example; a Russian plane isn’t built to use Extended MIL STD 1553. Are you fine with only using Russian hardware and only having interoperability with yourself?

The Rafale will be around for a while and is very potent. It is also carrier capable. It does have some RCS reduction measures, the AESA will be the same as on the EF, the plane specs out fairly well, the avionics is highly modern, it’s a NATO/Western compatible platform..... I don’t think it’s the best all around system available and carrier capable today, that title would go to the SH. The JSF will be in a class of its own with the Raptor, but they won’t be around for a while, at least not for India, and that’s no insult, even the USN will have to wait a long time (Production capacity). However, Rafale is an option. If the US is not willing to sell the good toys (We dumb down our exports often), if we are viewed politically a liability and dependence on a US system is not sought (Let’s say you decide to light a nuke in the future), the next best option is a Rafale.

27 posted on 08/22/2007 7:43:21 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

“The Super Hornet owns that arena.”

I really hate to admit this, being a Navy guy, but in pure fighter terms, the Mig-29 is the better bird. The Super-Hornet is by far the better multi-mission bird, but in high altitude air to air, the Mig has some distinct advantages. The difference in this fight in our favor is training and electronic warfare, mainly better shipboard support. We sent our birds against German Mig-29’s, and our guys were pretty impressed. The Indians are spending a lot on training, and the Germans proved that if you put good pilots in them, Mig-29’s are some of the best dogfighters out there right now, old as they are.


28 posted on 08/22/2007 8:22:14 PM PDT by DesScorp
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To: Red6

I know what you are saying and I agree that India needs to expand beyond using just russian hardware but compatibility with existing assets is absolutely necessary.

Besides, I do believe Indian migs are already capable of using some french missiles and the new Migs that will come with “Gorshkov” will undoubtedly have a more “open” architecture with respect to integrating western weapons.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/MiG-29K.html

But I disagree with respect to the Rafale. They havent secured a single export customer and the future sales will be hampered as NATO countries standardize on JSF. Who will buy the Rafale when you could buy JSF for the same price?
I just dont see how the Rafale will have an installed base to finance its evolution.


29 posted on 08/22/2007 8:38:54 PM PDT by Arjun (Skepticism is good. It keeps you alive.)
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To: Red6

The Russians (& even the Chinese) have been offering aircraft with avionics based on MIL-STD 1533 bus,including the SU-30 & the newer Mig-29 series,making the carriage of those weapons you mentioned more of a political issue..India already has integrated some French & Israeli weaponry on it’s Russian aircraft like the SU-30 & Mig-21/29.


30 posted on 08/22/2007 9:02:41 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: DesScorp
A MIG29 lacks a decent radar and has a horrible RCS. The SH will eat the MIGs lunch BVR which the fight overwhelmingly has been. APG-79 + AIM120C7/D = Bad MIG29 day.

The fight isn’t at Mach 2 and 50,000 feet. Show may any engagement A2A at Mach 2? The fight is in the transonic range and the SH has more than enough performance. In fact, even the newer and more capable JSF won’t be any faster, better climbing etc than a SH. You’re considering variables that are essentially insignificant. However in the realm of kinetics, the fact that the MIG has no legs is a serious handicap. Acceleration and ability to sustain the energy within the transonic range is more important that being able to break Mach 2 or bust some theoretical altitude you realistically can’t operate at.

A fatal flaw you make is to take the performance of the MIG29 in its land variant. That planes weight will increase and its payload lessen just like any aircraft does when it is familiarized with folding wings, heavy landing gear, and structural changes to withstand more or less repeated crash landings on a deck. Their naval version will be pushed by power plants that like ours are tweaked for lower altitudes (compression vs. heating)....... A Rafale for example gained about 1,200 pounds in its carrier variant.

31 posted on 08/22/2007 9:21:46 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Arjun; Red6
But I disagree with respect to the Rafale. They havent secured a single export customer

Battle of the middle/welterweight fighter market:
Export customers
MiG-29: 26 (not counting thise airforces which removed it from service after the fall of the Soviet Empire)
F-16: 23
F-18: 7
Eurofighter: 2 (apart from UK, Germany, Italy, Spain)
Rafale: 0

32 posted on 08/22/2007 9:21:48 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Just when did America reverse the idea of "Trust the People, fear the Government")
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To: Red6
With the French as long as you can pay, they will deliver.

Sure they will. Just ask Israel.

33 posted on 08/22/2007 9:32:45 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Oztrich Boy

Pretty unfair chart that!!Most of the exports of the first 3 happened before the Typhoon & Rafale even completed testing.


34 posted on 08/22/2007 9:36:33 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
That was an example, and since the Russians themselves know that compatibility with Western systems has helped in spoiling many sales they attempted to mitigate this in their sales pitch. However, it’s BS. The radar needs to have certain capabilities to fully exploit an AMRAAM which they don't. You can put a plug on a plane that leads nowhere and their systems are generally incompatible with ours. You can NOT just mix and match things. There are aerodynamic, mounting, bus, sub systems on the aircraft, weights and balances......... that need considered. These systems on an aircraft communicate and feed information to one another. The information from a radar might be fed to a MPD and this device has to know what to do with certain information, see what I'm trying to say?
35 posted on 08/22/2007 10:01:50 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

Sure,there is no such thing as screw n use-which is why barring probably the Swedes,nobody offers a range of diverse options from the start.

About their radars & their capability,how exactly do they use the AA-12 then?


36 posted on 08/22/2007 10:16:42 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Calvin Locke

When the whole world turned their back on India and Pakistan because of their nuclear games; Russia, China and France were the ones rushing in to fill the void.

During the 11 year armistice with Iraq, it was the French who along with the other bottom feeders rushed in and most likely even were involved in Roland sales shortly before wars begin (Although they deny it, but we own the missiles found in Iraq). Look at today with Libya. If you look at some of the Russian planes with advanced avionics you’d be surprised where much was developed or even came from, France. In fact India is looking at the MIG29 with a French HMCS, GPS etc. You might want to check out where some of the newer Chinese GSR systems came from, what the newer Russian FLIR technology is based on……..

Oh yea, among the NATO counties and the West, the French are the bottom feeder. They will do deals with those others won’t.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,2141219,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6928880.stm


37 posted on 08/22/2007 10:30:37 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

The whole world?????Barring the US & Sweden,no other country stopped military cooperation with India-including Britain,Poland,South Africa & Israel.Infact,cooperation shot up as spending increased.


38 posted on 08/22/2007 10:55:48 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Last I heard the Gorshkov deal was in serious problems because the Ruskies had blown all the money and haven’t finished the job.


39 posted on 08/23/2007 12:34:34 AM PDT by Ronin (Bushed out!!! Another tragic victim of BDS.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
Oh yea, I forgot the Poles are known for their advanced radars, fighters, tanks at that time. I’m sure Sudan was willing to sell you arms too.

Germany also said - “Nein Danke” to you, as did Italy. Most Western nations with any aerospace capabilities restricted what they were willing to sell you in some fashion, except the French. They saw others imposing restrictions as an opportunity for them.

During that time period most of your procurement of advanced systems came from a few countries like France and Russia. Example: Mirage 2000

Other examples; because of our embargo you couldn’t get needed parts for Paveway systems you had. The UK was so helpful that 60% of your Sea Kings (Westland) were grounded during that time......

You’re talking $hit-

40 posted on 08/23/2007 7:15:17 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

You’re the one who’s deluded here-

Sorry if you didn’t know that the Poles are amongst the best when it comes to upgradation of Soviet weaponry.Indian T-72 tanks(100s of them),OSA SAMs,Shilka AAA guns are amongst the systems being upgraded by the Poles.Germany was pretty much having zilch cooperation with India at the moment,while Italian torpedoes & electronics continued to flow into Indian navy ships as usual.

About the SeaKing helos,well those had American electronics & gearbox systems-the Brits grounded those due to Washington.Indian Jaguar aircraft were flying as usual while the Brits continued negotiations on Hawk trainers.


41 posted on 08/23/2007 7:20:46 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Red6

India didn’t buy any Mirage-2000 in the period you mention.50 were purchased in the 80s & 10 were contracted for in 2003,long after the tests(& removal of US embargo).No major defence deal was signed with the French during that period-the only deals signed were with Russia,Israel,Poland & South Africa.


42 posted on 08/23/2007 7:28:05 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Red6

Probably am more brighter than a xenophobic bigot.I never knew that countries restricted cooperation only on the aerospace sector.

The Hawks were delayed because the Indian Air Force insisted on removing all American systems from the Hawk with European systems-which took an additional 2 years.


44 posted on 08/23/2007 7:48:59 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Take a look at a lot of the better avionics on your Russian made planes and what the company names are that build it.

The agreements with some nations buying JSF were made YEARS ago. The day a plane is delivered is not the day it was built, and it’ s also not the day the deal was made.

You’re playing games and wasting my time.


45 posted on 08/23/2007 7:51:34 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

Gee,I thought of saying the last line to you!!


46 posted on 08/23/2007 7:53:05 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Whatever

You’re probably right


47 posted on 08/23/2007 7:54:01 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

You’re always right


48 posted on 08/23/2007 7:54:47 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Red6
Ooh, a quiz!

TU160 : B-1 bomber
SU25 : A-10 ground attack aircraft
AA12 : AIM-9 Sidewinder AAM

No guesses on the bonus question.

49 posted on 08/23/2007 9:21:45 AM PDT by Justa (Politically Correct is morally wrong.)
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To: Justa

50% - better luck next time.

SU25 = YA-9 (never produced by us but greatly influenced the SU25 development)

http://marvellouswings.com/Aircraft/Attacker/A-9/Pic/YA-9A%2071-1368%20March.JPG

AA12 (came out about 1992) is also referred to as the AMRAAMski by US pilots. The AA12 heavily borrows from the US AIM120 AMRAAM.

Yes, the Soviets/Russian copied the Sidewinder as well. The AA2 Atoll was a direct lift of sidewinders they managed to get their hands on.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/ru_monino_missile_aa-2_02.jpg


50 posted on 08/23/2007 9:43:35 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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