Posted on 08/23/2007 9:04:35 AM PDT by neverdem
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I went to http://www.dnc.org yesterday for some opp research and was disgusted to see their headline: “Bush says Iraq is just like Vietnam!”
These people, I’m tellin’ ya...
“Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left.”
Bush screwed up. There is no repeat no “legitimate” debate about “how” we left. The events that began with Kronkites fallacious reporting after Tet 68 and the takeover of the Democratic Party soon afterward at their Chicago Convention that fall had snowballed to the point that they pulled the rug from under the people of South Vietnam by denying them the promised military armaments that were promised as part of Nixons Vietnamization/Peace With Honor/Paris negotiations program.
We left in Honor, but the likes of Fulbright, kerry, fonda, and the scruffy Chicago 7 conspired to facilitate the murder/genocide of 2 million S Vietnamese and Cambodians.
Can anyone post the picture of the helicopter on the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon? That picture sums it all up.
It’s starting to look a bit like a concerted effort by some folk. The “Vietnam withdrawal was no bloodletting” theme cropping up at several blog site comment sections.
Neo-neocon and Jules Crittendon come to mind. Some idiot calling himself d was at neos site and there’s one calling himself corndog or somesuch at Critts. I’ve seen it crop up in other places but cant remember the names off the top of my pointy.
Their blatherings tend to be similar in structure.
The US Military may have left with honor, but the United States government did not, thanks to a Democrat Congress.
We lost the war in this country, with the politicians; not the military.
“....helicopter on the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon? That picture sums it all up.”
No, it doesn’t “sum it all up”.
It gives the wrongful impression that we were “chased” out.......the truth is that ALL combat troops were out before Feb 73, when some of our POWs were released.
Even with the US combat mission completely withdrawn, and the aid denied by the democrats, the great and wonderful commie “victory” took more than 2 full years to accomplish.
Here's part of the chain of events.
On April 29, 1975, hundreds of Americans and South Vietnamese were evacuated from Saigon (now known as Ho Chi Minh City), Vietnam, by helicopter. The following day the city was captured by the North Vietnamese, signaling the end of the Vietnam War.
UPI/THE BETTMANN ARCHIVE
While working as a journalist in Vietnam, Nayan Chanda took this photo of a Communist tank entering the presidential palace in Saigon on April 30, 1975. Chanda, now editor of YaleGlobal Online, will speak about his experiences there at a panel marking the 30th anniversary of the event.
AP
An anti-American demonstration in Tehran after Iranian students stormed the US Embassy in November 1979. 
AP
The scorched wreckage of an American C-130 Cargo aircraft involved in the failed August 1980 attempt to rescue the hostages.
AP
Blindfolded and with his hands bound, an American hostage is led by young militants to a mob in front of the US Embassy in Tehran, Iran in November 1979.

“On April 29, 1975, hundreds of Americans”
False. By that date there were only a few embassy-type Americans remaining in-country, and a few more American reporters.
The vast majority of those chopper sorties carried hundreds of South Vietnamese to the safety of the US Navy, awaiting offshore.
These people, Im tellin ya...
CNN was crowing the same thing, mere minutes after President Bush's speech...
Thank you for posting this, it is a very powerful reminder of the price of war, and the people who suffer the cost.
“We lost the war in this country...”
No, the war was in South Vietnam, not here.
The democrat lefties tossed the S Vietnamese to the wolves....and the Cambodians to the Khmer Rouge.
Hardly a “war”......more like feeding human beings to wild animals!
False.
Maybe by your reckoning, but you took it out of context. Here's the complete caption:
"On April 29, 1975, hundreds of Americans and South Vietnamese were evacuated from Saigon (now known as Ho Chi Minh City), Vietnam, by helicopter. The following day the city was captured by the North Vietnamese, signaling the end of the Vietnam War."
UPI/THE BETTMANN ARCHIVE
With the conjunction "and" which you omitted, there was nothing false with the statement. It was a mixed bunch, and they were by the hundreds.
Fact: it was a few Americans and hundreds of South Vietnamese. My reckoning has nothing to do with the false impression given, as the revisionism was already underway.
Sums up what? The last US troops left in March 1973 and the last combat death was suffered in January 1973. The picture you refer to was April 30, 1975, over two years after our troops left. The personnel on the roof were diplomats, embassy staffers, US contractors, and South Vietnamese who were trying to flee.
Here is the true story, told by a participant, contemporaneously:
http://www.fallofsaigon.org/lastto.htm
Speaking of distortions, how about comparing Iraq to Vietnam, as is the freaking topic of discussion, rather than WWII? The Tet Offensive was in 1968, and we left in 1975... that's 7 years, and we entered Iraq in March, 2003, only 4 years ago.
Can the left ever make an accusation that they aren't directly and personally guilty of?
Were you there? I had the impression of at least a few dozen embassy staff and about an equal number of Marines guards for embassy security, not counting American contractors and their family members, almost until the bitter end, not counting the personnel involved in the helicopter evacuation.
Robert Dalleck is a useless LBJ sycophant, IMHO.
Maybe our Congress Critters should visit Vietnam today instead of Iraq, maybe there are some people there who survived the “re-education” camps and the killing fields. If they had to hear the truth, it would be so much more difficult to consign the Iraqi people to that kind of hell.
Not a very well thought out statement.
1. Many of those screaming to get out regardless of the cost were supporters of going in. They are responsible even though they are too cowardly to admit it.
2. Withdrawn or “getting out” is a decision made with full recognition of the potential consequences... Those who are so morally weak as to demand withdrawal in response to the “mob” should be shunned... Murtha comes to mind along with Pelosi, his mentor-ess, and Reid who has the spine of a slug.
3. If we lack the national will to see this through it will be a burden to our descendants for generations and a potential cause for a collapse of our society and culture (such that it is).
A war consists of more than just a battlefield. It was the decisions made here in the US that caused the loss to the forces of communism.
Of course, millions of lives later, capitalism has gone a long way to retake S. Vietnam from the communists. Ironic, in a way.
Lefties never learn the lessons of history. They’d like to repeat it with Iraq.
“A war consists of more than just a battlefield.”
Oh. Thanks for the tip.
“It was the decisions made here in the US that caused the loss to the forces of communism.”
Don’t you really mean the abandonment? I understand that you prefer using “war” and “lost”, but geez!
" The Socialist Republic of Vietnam is an authoritarian state ruled by the Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV). Its population is approximately 84.1 million. The CPV's constitutionally mandated primacy and the continued occupancy of all key government positions by party members allowed it to set national policy. However, the CPV continued to reduce its formal involvement in government operations and allowed the government to exercise significant discretion in implementing policy. There were no other legal political parties. The most recent National Assembly elections, held in 2002, were neither free nor fair, since all candidates were chosen by the CPV's Vietnam Fatherland Front (VFF), an umbrella group that monitored the country's popular organizations. The civilian authorities generally maintained effective control of the security forces.
The government's human rights record remained unsatisfactory. Some government officials, particularly at the local level, continued to commit abuses despite a concerted push by central authorities to address abuse concerns, especially of religious freedom. Citizens could not change their government, and political opposition movements were officially prohibited and some activists arrested, although several nascent opposition organizations were not completely suppressed. The government sought to reinforce its controls over the press and the Internet. In a few instances, police abused suspects during arrest, detention, and interrogation.
Prison conditions were often severe but generally did not threaten the lives of prisoners. Security forces generally operated with impunity, and there was one credible report of an extrajudicial killing by security forces. Individuals were arbitrarily detained for political activities. Persons were denied the right to fair and expeditious trials. The government limited citizens' privacy rights and freedom of speech, press, assembly, movement, and association. The government maintained its prohibition of independent human rights organizations. Violence and discrimination against women persisted, as did limited child prostitution and trafficking in women and children, although the government intensified its efforts to combat trafficking. Some ethnic minority groups suffered societal discrimination. The government continued to limit workers' rights, especially to organize independently.
It is still a Communist hellhole. See my post #31.
You don’t equate abandonment with lost ? Abandonment with giving up and retreating ?
I do.
And I mean no disrespect to the military; I put the blame squarely in Washington DC.
I didn’t think it was still that bad. So really, they’re just like the Chinese.
Hypocrites.
I put the blame squarely in Washington DC.
Agreed. But the terms you use along the way serve and perpetuate the lefty revisionism nicely. Nice chatting.
There are no communist run paradises. It is all relative. North Korea, China, Cuba, and Vietnam are just different versions of the same old tune.
Not exactly, while they are all tyrannies, China and Vietnam have embraced capitalism, a fundamental contradiction to their original reason for being in control of their governments in one party states. Both China and Vietnam are living in interesting times.
I don’t want to support the lefty position at all, which is why I was so explicit about putting blame on Congress and the MSM and no one else. And really, the reason I did that was because if the same thing happens in Iraq, it will again be the fault of a Dim’rat Congress and the MSM, not Bush or the military.
Speaking to your screen name, my X was in Vietnam in 69-70 as a helicopter crew chief, and his brother was a Marine Recon sergeant. So, I appreciate the distinction in fault.
Nice chatting with you too.
I'm continually reminded of this when I see the "get rid of Maliki" chorus. Maliki may well be incompetent, corrupt, or whatever.
But for the US to be seen "picking" Iraq's leadership ... and that's essentially what Combover Levin is calling for ... would spell the end of the legitimacy of Iraqi democracy.
Removal of US troops from South Korea led to the Korean War
"Most everyone agrees that had the U.S. troops remained, there would have been no war."[Quote is from: A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF THE KOREAN WAR, By Jack D. Walker]
In 1945, we freed S. Korea from the Japanese.
In 1949, the Truman government prematurely pulled our troops out of an unstable and militarily weak S. Korea.
In June, 1950, Kim il-Sung's Commumist N. Korean army invaded and occupied most of S. Korea.
In July, 1950, Truman sent troops back to Korea, where 30,000 Americans were killed in the remaining 30 months of Truman's presidency. (That's an average of 1,000 American deaths per month in Korea -- ten times the monthly rate suffered in Iraq.)
BTW, not only are US deaths in Iraq far lower than US deaths were in Korea, but there is no military draft and there is little of the severe wartime press censorship* that was put in place during the Korean war.
*Full wartime censorship placed on Korean News [Among the many regulations -- Correspondents were placed under the jurisdiction of the army, could not criticize the war effort, could not dispatch demoralizing news, could not interview officers without permission, could not report casualties before they were officially reported and were subject to court martial]
And Murtha should admit that redeployment of US troops to Korea from nearby Japan was time-consuming and dangerous. The troops which were first sent to Korea were the ones stationed closest to Korea, and happened to be the least prepared to fight.

“I dont want to support the lefty position at all,...”
I understand that perfectly well......the terminology is my bugaboo, as I’m still PO’d about the slander and libel against us and the combat mission in SVN. I tend to speak up when it seems necessary or apropos, whether to lefties or well-meaning decent folks like yourself. Sometimes one cannot distinguish between deliberate slander/revisionism and inadvertent and unintentional supporting language.
Single most important thing to remember IMO is that ALL combat US troops were gone by Feb 73.....and that even with the lefty congress reneging on the the S Vietnamese armaments promised, they were still able to hold on for more than 2 yrs before the great and glorious commie “victory” in Apr, 75. Incidentally, while US aid for the South was not forthcoming, the Chinese and Russian aid to the North continued.......STILL it took 2+ years, LOL. Doesn’t speak too well for the commie troops, does it?
Peace. I’d have read your last post and answered last nite but we had a power-out from about 10pm until an hour ago......2500 volt wire hit by sparks from Above came down in neighbors yard. Waaaay different from a 440v wire, trust me.
Here are the State Department 2006 Human Rights Reports on China and Vietnam. I visited China [Beijing] about seven years ago. I was not impressed. It reminded me a lot of the Soviet Union. I don't see freedom and democracy breaking out anytime soon. Capitialism is just being used as a tool of the state.
Thanks for the links.
Here's a little more information on the first division which was sent to Korea.
General MacArthur chose [the 24th Division] on the basis of location. The 24th Division was closer to Korea than other combat units in Japan and could be deployed more rapidly.Murtha should take note that on some days the weather conditions in Korea were too poor for landings. He shouldn't assume redeployed troops can be easily sent back to a country experiencing an emergency.From the standpoint of combat readiness, while there was little to choose from among the four divisions in Japan, the 24th Division had been reported on 30 May 1950 as having the lowest combat effectiveness of the major units. ...65 percent combat effective.
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