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Maroons Rush In - Criticism of the president’s Vietnam analogy takes Chutzpah.
National Review Online ^ | August 23, 2007 | Mackubin Thomas Owens

Posted on 08/23/2007 9:04:35 AM PDT by neverdem







Maroons Rush In
Criticism of the president’s Vietnam analogy takes Chutzpah.

By Mackubin Thomas Owens

In his speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars on Tuesday, President Bush argued that the consequences of an American withdrawal from Iraq would be similar to those that followed our abandonment of South Vietnam in 1975. Citing the killing fields of Cambodia and the executions and “reeducation” camps in Vietnam, the president continued:
Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left. There's no debate in my mind that the veterans from Vietnam deserve the high praise of the United States of America. (Applause.) Whatever your position is on that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like "boat people," "re-education camps," and "killing fields."

There was another price to our withdrawal from Vietnam, and we can hear it in the words of the enemy we face in today's struggle — those who came to our soil and killed thousands of citizens on September the 11th, 2001. In an interview with a Pakistani newspaper after the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden declared that "the American people had risen against their government's war in Vietnam. And they must do the same today."

His number two man, Zawahiri, has also invoked Vietnam. In a letter to al Qaeda's chief of operations in Iraq, Zawahiri pointed to "the aftermath of the collapse of the American power in Vietnam and how they ran and left their agents."
Zawahiri later returned to this theme, declaring that the Americans "know better than others that there is no hope in victory. The Vietnam specter is closing every outlet." Here at home, some can argue our withdrawal from Vietnam carried no price to American credibility — but the terrorists see it differently.

The reaction to Bush’s invocation of the Vietnam War’s aftermath was swift and critical. John Kerry called the comparison “ignorant.” Reporters interviewed several historians who were happy to agree with Kerry. Robert Dalleck called the comparison “a distortion”:

What is Bush suggesting? That we didn’t fight hard enough, stay long enough? That’s nonsense. It’s a distortion...We’ve been in Iraq longer than we fought in World War II. It’s a disaster, and this is a political attempt to lay the blame for the disaster on his opponents. But the disaster is the consequence of going in, not getting out.

USA Today asked Stanley Karnow: “Vietnam was not a bunch of sectarian groups fighting each other, as in Iraq. In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge toppled a U.S.-backed government. Does he think we should have stayed in Vietnam?”

Bugs Bunny had a name for people like this: “maroons.” And Alan Dershowitz once wrote a book about them entitled Chutzpah! Of course in criticizing Bush’s reference to Vietnam, they are comparing apples and oranges. If they don’t see this, they are fools. If they do — which is more likely — they are dishonest. Take your pick.

The fact is that opponents of the war have drawn the Vietnam analogy like a gun, seeking from the very beginning to argue that Iraq and Vietnam were analogous. Ted Kennedy famously called Iraq “George Bush’s Vietnam.”

I have argued on several occasions that the parallels between the two conflicts at the operational and strategic levels of war were nonsensical. But that has never stopped the opponents of the current war from invoking the conventional Vietnam War narrative, which goes something like this: The U.S. was predestined to lose the Vietnam War because the Vietnamese Communists were too determined, the South Vietnamese too corrupt, and Americans were incapable of fighting the kind of war that would have been necessary to prevail. Accordingly, “orthodox” Vietnam historians often act as if Hanoi had pursued a course of action with little regard for what the United States did.

It is clear that those who invoke Vietnam in discussing Iraq accept the orthodox narrative. But revisionists such as Bob Sorely in A Better War and Mark Moyar in Triumph Forsaken have called the conventional narrative into question. They and others have shown that Hanoi, as Clausewitz would have predicted, responded to American actions. Moyar’s thesis is that the U.S. defeat was far from inevitable; the United States had ample opportunities to ensure the survival of South Vietnam but failed to develop the proper strategy to do so. By far the greatest mistake the Americans made was to acquiesce in the November 1963 coup that deposed Diem, a decision that “forfeited the tremendous gains of the preceding nine years and plunged the country into an extended period of instability and weakness.”

Sorley argues along the same lines. Building on his excellent biographies of Army generals Creighton Abrams and Harold Johnson, Sorley examined the largely neglected later years of the conflict and concluded that the war in Vietnam "was being won on the ground even as it was being lost at the peace table and in the US Congress."

The fact is that the outcome of a war is not predetermined. Who wins and who loses are determined in the final instance by the respective actions of the combatants. Victory or defeat depends on decisions actually made and strategies actually implemented. We came close to victory in Vietnam, but then threw it away.

The 1972 Easter Offensive provided the proof that Vietnam could survive, albeit with U.S. air and naval support, at least in the short term. The Easter Offensive was the biggest North Vietnamese offensive push of the war, greater in magnitude than either the 1968 Tet offensive or the final assault of 1975. Despite inevitable failures on the part of some units, all in all, the South Vietnamese fought well. Then, having blunted the Communist thrust, they recaptured territory that had been lost to Hanoi. Finally, so effective was the eleven-day "Christmas bombing" campaign (LINEBACKER II) later that year that the British counterinsurgency expert, Sir Robert Thompson exclaimed, "you had won the war. It was over."

Three years later, despite the heroic performance of some ARVN units, South Vietnam collapsed against a much weaker, cobbled-together PAVN offensive. What happened to cause this reversal?

First, the Nixon administration, in its rush to extricate the country from Vietnam, forced South Vietnam to accept a ceasefire that permitted North Vietnamese forces to remain in South Vietnam. Then in an act that still shames the United States to this day, Congress cut off military and economic assistance to South Vietnam. Finally, President Nixon resigned over Watergate and his successor, constrained by congressional action, defaulted on promises to respond with force to North Vietnamese violations of the peace terms.

Of course the president’s reference to Vietnam did not have to do with operational art or strategy but with the consequences of defeat: the abandonment of allies to the tender mercies of Vietnamese and Cambodian Communists, resulting in the death of millions in Cambodia and thousands in Vietnam, the “boat people,” and re-education camps. This abandonment of our Vietnamese allies was a massive moral failure on the part of the United States. It is one we should not repeat in Iraq.

— Mackubin Thomas Owens is an NRO contributing editor and a professor of strategy and force planning at the Naval War College in Newport, R.I. He led a Marine infantry platoon in Vietnam in 1968-1969.



TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bush; iraq; vfw; vietnam; vietnamwar

1 posted on 08/23/2007 9:04:38 AM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

I went to http://www.dnc.org yesterday for some opp research and was disgusted to see their headline: “Bush says Iraq is just like Vietnam!”

These people, I’m tellin’ ya...


2 posted on 08/23/2007 9:07:13 AM PDT by RightOnTheLeftCoast ([Thompson 2008!])
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To: neverdem
Corrected: "Then in an act that still shames the United States to this day, a Democrat Congress cut off military and economic assistance to South Vietnam."
3 posted on 08/23/2007 9:15:08 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie
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To: neverdem

“Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left.”

Bush screwed up. There is no repeat no “legitimate” debate about “how” we left. The events that began with Kronkites fallacious reporting after Tet 68 and the takeover of the Democratic Party soon afterward at their Chicago Convention that fall had snowballed to the point that they pulled the rug from under the people of South Vietnam by denying them the promised military armaments that were promised as part of Nixons Vietnamization/Peace With Honor/Paris negotiations program.

We left in Honor, but the likes of Fulbright, kerry, fonda, and the scruffy Chicago 7 conspired to facilitate the murder/genocide of 2 million S Vietnamese and Cambodians.


4 posted on 08/23/2007 9:16:02 AM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: neverdem

Can anyone post the picture of the helicopter on the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon? That picture sums it all up.


5 posted on 08/23/2007 9:18:20 AM PDT by ishabibble (ALL-AMERICAN INFIDEL)
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To: neverdem

It’s starting to look a bit like a concerted effort by some folk. The “Vietnam withdrawal was no bloodletting” theme cropping up at several blog site comment sections.

Neo-neocon and Jules Crittendon come to mind. Some idiot calling himself d was at neos site and there’s one calling himself corndog or somesuch at Critts. I’ve seen it crop up in other places but cant remember the names off the top of my pointy.

Their blatherings tend to be similar in structure.


6 posted on 08/23/2007 9:20:38 AM PDT by Grimmy (equivocation is but the first step along the road to capitulation)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

The US Military may have left with honor, but the United States government did not, thanks to a Democrat Congress.

We lost the war in this country, with the politicians; not the military.


7 posted on 08/23/2007 9:24:15 AM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: neverdem
massive moral failure= Democrats in office
8 posted on 08/23/2007 9:25:06 AM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: ishabibble

“....helicopter on the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon? That picture sums it all up.”

No, it doesn’t “sum it all up”.

It gives the wrongful impression that we were “chased” out.......the truth is that ALL combat troops were out before Feb 73, when some of our POWs were released.

Even with the US combat mission completely withdrawn, and the aid denied by the democrats, the great and wonderful commie “victory” took more than 2 full years to accomplish.


9 posted on 08/23/2007 9:28:26 AM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: ishabibble
Can anyone post the picture of the helicopter on the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon? That picture sums it all up.

Here's part of the chain of events.

On April 29, 1975, hundreds of Americans and South Vietnamese were evacuated from Saigon (now known as Ho Chi Minh City), Vietnam, by helicopter. The following day the city was captured by the North Vietnamese, signaling the end of the Vietnam War.
UPI/THE BETTMANN ARCHIVE

While working as a journalist in Vietnam, Nayan Chanda took this photo of a Communist tank entering the presidential palace in Saigon on April 30, 1975. Chanda, now editor of YaleGlobal Online, will speak about his experiences there at a panel marking the 30th anniversary of the event.

AP
An anti-American demonstration in Tehran after Iranian students stormed the US Embassy in November 1979.

AP
The scorched wreckage of an American C-130 Cargo aircraft involved in the failed August 1980 attempt to rescue the hostages.

AP
Blindfolded and with his hands bound, an American hostage is led by young militants to a mob in front of the US Embassy in Tehran, Iran in November 1979.


10 posted on 08/23/2007 9:36:54 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: neverdem

11 posted on 08/23/2007 9:41:58 AM PDT by Diogenesis (Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
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To: neverdem

“On April 29, 1975, hundreds of Americans”

False. By that date there were only a few embassy-type Americans remaining in-country, and a few more American reporters.

The vast majority of those chopper sorties carried hundreds of South Vietnamese to the safety of the US Navy, awaiting offshore.


12 posted on 08/23/2007 9:45:53 AM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: RightOnTheLeftCoast; governsleastgovernsbest; Cringing Negativism Network
I went to http://www.dnc.org yesterday for some opp research and was disgusted to see their headline: “Bush says Iraq is just like Vietnam!”

These people, I’m tellin’ ya...

CNN was crowing the same thing, mere minutes after President Bush's speech...

13 posted on 08/23/2007 9:47:23 AM PDT by nutmeg ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton 6/28/04)
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To: neverdem
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at PhotobucketPhoto Sharing and Video Hosting at PhotobucketPhoto Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
14 posted on 08/23/2007 9:48:55 AM PDT by rfp1234 (Nothing is better than eternal happiness. A ham sandwich is better than nothing. Therefore...)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68
I meant that the picture sums up what happened to the Vietnamese people. I remember the chronology of the war, and I remember feeling sick as I watched the footage of the people on that roof.
15 posted on 08/23/2007 9:59:55 AM PDT by ishabibble (ALL-AMERICAN INFIDEL)
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To: neverdem

Thank you for posting this, it is a very powerful reminder of the price of war, and the people who suffer the cost.


16 posted on 08/23/2007 10:01:09 AM PDT by ishabibble (ALL-AMERICAN INFIDEL)
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To: cinives

“We lost the war in this country...”

No, the war was in South Vietnam, not here.

The democrat lefties tossed the S Vietnamese to the wolves....and the Cambodians to the Khmer Rouge.

Hardly a “war”......more like feeding human beings to wild animals!


17 posted on 08/23/2007 10:10:01 AM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68
“On April 29, 1975, hundreds of Americans”

False.

Maybe by your reckoning, but you took it out of context. Here's the complete caption:

"On April 29, 1975, hundreds of Americans and South Vietnamese were evacuated from Saigon (now known as Ho Chi Minh City), Vietnam, by helicopter. The following day the city was captured by the North Vietnamese, signaling the end of the Vietnam War."
UPI/THE BETTMANN ARCHIVE

With the conjunction "and" which you omitted, there was nothing false with the statement. It was a mixed bunch, and they were by the hundreds.

18 posted on 08/23/2007 10:34:28 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: ishabibble
Can anyone post the picture of the helicopter on the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon? That picture sums it all up.

IIRC, that picture is not actually the U.S. Embassy. It was a CIA safe house.
19 posted on 08/23/2007 10:37:31 AM PDT by A Balrog of Morgoth (QMC(SW) USN........ CG21 DD988 FFG34 PC6 ARS53)
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To: neverdem
The media, who were drawing parallels to Vietnam before the Iraq conflict began, are being mightily hypocritical for criticizing Bush for drawing an analogy to that same conflict (Vietnam).
20 posted on 08/23/2007 10:38:41 AM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: neverdem

Fact: it was a few Americans and hundreds of South Vietnamese. My reckoning has nothing to do with the false impression given, as the revisionism was already underway.


21 posted on 08/23/2007 10:44:09 AM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: ishabibble
Can anyone post the picture of the helicopter on the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon? That picture sums it all up.

Sums up what? The last US troops left in March 1973 and the last combat death was suffered in January 1973. The picture you refer to was April 30, 1975, over two years after our troops left. The personnel on the roof were diplomats, embassy staffers, US contractors, and South Vietnamese who were trying to flee.

22 posted on 08/23/2007 10:44:13 AM PDT by kabar
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To: A Balrog of Morgoth

Here is the true story, told by a participant, contemporaneously:

http://www.fallofsaigon.org/lastto.htm


23 posted on 08/23/2007 10:47:50 AM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: neverdem
Robert Dalleck called the comparison “a distortion"
That’s nonsense. It’s a distortion...We’ve been in Iraq longer than we fought in World War II.

Speaking of distortions, how about comparing Iraq to Vietnam, as is the freaking topic of discussion, rather than WWII? The Tet Offensive was in 1968, and we left in 1975... that's 7 years, and we entered Iraq in March, 2003, only 4 years ago.

Can the left ever make an accusation that they aren't directly and personally guilty of?

24 posted on 08/23/2007 10:48:00 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68
Fact: it was a few Americans and hundreds of South Vietnamese. My reckoning has nothing to do with the false impression given, as the revisionism was already underway.

Were you there? I had the impression of at least a few dozen embassy staff and about an equal number of Marines guards for embassy security, not counting American contractors and their family members, almost until the bitter end, not counting the personnel involved in the helicopter evacuation.

25 posted on 08/23/2007 11:24:16 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: Teacher317
Can the left ever make an accusation that they aren't directly and personally guilty of?

Robert Dalleck is a useless LBJ sycophant, IMHO.

26 posted on 08/23/2007 11:44:09 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: kabar
Yes, that is the picture I was thinking of, but not because of Americans or even the Vietnam War, I was thinking of the lives that the defunding by the U.S. Congress cost.

Maybe our Congress Critters should visit Vietnam today instead of Iraq, maybe there are some people there who survived the “re-education” camps and the killing fields. If they had to hear the truth, it would be so much more difficult to consign the Iraqi people to that kind of hell.

27 posted on 08/23/2007 11:54:52 AM PDT by ishabibble (ALL-AMERICAN INFIDEL)
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To: neverdem
“But the disaster is the consequence of going in, not getting out.”

Not a very well thought out statement.

1. Many of those screaming to get out regardless of the cost were supporters of going in. They are responsible even though they are too cowardly to admit it.

2. Withdrawn or “getting out” is a decision made with full recognition of the potential consequences... Those who are so morally weak as to demand withdrawal in response to the “mob” should be shunned... Murtha comes to mind along with Pelosi, his mentor-ess, and Reid who has the spine of a slug.

3. If we lack the national will to see this through it will be a burden to our descendants for generations and a potential cause for a collapse of our society and culture (such that it is).

28 posted on 08/23/2007 12:06:58 PM PDT by RedEyeJack
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

A war consists of more than just a battlefield. It was the decisions made here in the US that caused the loss to the forces of communism.

Of course, millions of lives later, capitalism has gone a long way to retake S. Vietnam from the communists. Ironic, in a way.

Lefties never learn the lessons of history. They’d like to repeat it with Iraq.


29 posted on 08/23/2007 12:30:14 PM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: cinives

“A war consists of more than just a battlefield.”

Oh. Thanks for the tip.

“It was the decisions made here in the US that caused the loss to the forces of communism.”

Don’t you really mean the abandonment? I understand that you prefer using “war” and “lost”, but geez!


30 posted on 08/23/2007 12:41:48 PM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: ishabibble
From the 2006 Stsate Department Human Rights Report, our real legacy

" The Socialist Republic of Vietnam is an authoritarian state ruled by the Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV). Its population is approximately 84.1 million. The CPV's constitutionally mandated primacy and the continued occupancy of all key government positions by party members allowed it to set national policy. However, the CPV continued to reduce its formal involvement in government operations and allowed the government to exercise significant discretion in implementing policy. There were no other legal political parties. The most recent National Assembly elections, held in 2002, were neither free nor fair, since all candidates were chosen by the CPV's Vietnam Fatherland Front (VFF), an umbrella group that monitored the country's popular organizations. The civilian authorities generally maintained effective control of the security forces.

The government's human rights record remained unsatisfactory. Some government officials, particularly at the local level, continued to commit abuses despite a concerted push by central authorities to address abuse concerns, especially of religious freedom. Citizens could not change their government, and political opposition movements were officially prohibited and some activists arrested, although several nascent opposition organizations were not completely suppressed. The government sought to reinforce its controls over the press and the Internet. In a few instances, police abused suspects during arrest, detention, and interrogation.

Prison conditions were often severe but generally did not threaten the lives of prisoners. Security forces generally operated with impunity, and there was one credible report of an extrajudicial killing by security forces. Individuals were arbitrarily detained for political activities. Persons were denied the right to fair and expeditious trials. The government limited citizens' privacy rights and freedom of speech, press, assembly, movement, and association. The government maintained its prohibition of independent human rights organizations. Violence and discrimination against women persisted, as did limited child prostitution and trafficking in women and children, although the government intensified its efforts to combat trafficking. Some ethnic minority groups suffered societal discrimination. The government continued to limit workers' rights, especially to organize independently.

31 posted on 08/23/2007 1:01:27 PM PDT by kabar
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To: cinives
Of course, millions of lives later, capitalism has gone a long way to retake S. Vietnam from the communists. Ironic, in a way.

It is still a Communist hellhole. See my post #31.

32 posted on 08/23/2007 1:04:22 PM PDT by kabar
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

You don’t equate abandonment with lost ? Abandonment with giving up and retreating ?

I do.

And I mean no disrespect to the military; I put the blame squarely in Washington DC.


33 posted on 08/23/2007 2:06:38 PM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: kabar

I didn’t think it was still that bad. So really, they’re just like the Chinese.


34 posted on 08/23/2007 2:08:04 PM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: neverdem
Funny how the left doesn't want Iraq compared to Vietnam when it doesn't benefit them.

Hypocrites.

35 posted on 08/23/2007 2:09:27 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: cinives

I put the blame squarely in Washington DC.

Agreed. But the terms you use along the way serve and perpetuate the lefty revisionism nicely. Nice chatting.


36 posted on 08/23/2007 2:12:17 PM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: cinives

There are no communist run paradises. It is all relative. North Korea, China, Cuba, and Vietnam are just different versions of the same old tune.


37 posted on 08/23/2007 4:04:28 PM PDT by kabar
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To: kabar
There are no communist run paradises. It is all relative. North Korea, China, Cuba, and Vietnam are just different versions of the same old tune.

Not exactly, while they are all tyrannies, China and Vietnam have embraced capitalism, a fundamental contradiction to their original reason for being in control of their governments in one party states. Both China and Vietnam are living in interesting times.

38 posted on 08/24/2007 10:30:10 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

I don’t want to support the lefty position at all, which is why I was so explicit about putting blame on Congress and the MSM and no one else. And really, the reason I did that was because if the same thing happens in Iraq, it will again be the fault of a Dim’rat Congress and the MSM, not Bush or the military.

Speaking to your screen name, my X was in Vietnam in 69-70 as a helicopter crew chief, and his brother was a Marine Recon sergeant. So, I appreciate the distinction in fault.

Nice chatting with you too.


39 posted on 08/24/2007 11:03:01 AM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: neverdem
By far the greatest mistake the Americans made was to acquiesce in the November 1963 coup that deposed Diem, a decision that “forfeited the tremendous gains of the preceding nine years and plunged the country into an extended period of instability and weakness.”

I'm continually reminded of this when I see the "get rid of Maliki" chorus. Maliki may well be incompetent, corrupt, or whatever.

But for the US to be seen "picking" Iraq's leadership ... and that's essentially what Combover Levin is calling for ... would spell the end of the legitimacy of Iraqi democracy.

40 posted on 08/24/2007 11:09:46 AM PDT by r9etb
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Bush is right....we shouldn't pull our troops out of a country we have freed.
We should have learned that lesson when we abandoned S. Korea.

Removal of US troops from South Korea led to the Korean War

"Most everyone agrees that had the U.S. troops remained, there would have been no war."
[Quote is from: A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF THE KOREAN WAR, By Jack D. Walker]

In 1945, we freed S. Korea from the Japanese.

In 1949, the Truman government prematurely pulled our troops out of an unstable and militarily weak S. Korea.

In June, 1950, Kim il-Sung's Commumist N. Korean army invaded and occupied most of S. Korea.

In July, 1950, Truman sent troops back to Korea, where 30,000 Americans were killed in the remaining 30 months of Truman's presidency. (That's an average of 1,000 American deaths per month in Korea -- ten times the monthly rate suffered in Iraq.)

BTW, not only are US deaths in Iraq far lower than US deaths were in Korea, but there is no military draft and there is little of the severe wartime press censorship* that was put in place during the Korean war.

*Full wartime censorship placed on Korean News [Among the many regulations -- Correspondents were placed under the jurisdiction of the army, could not criticize the war effort, could not dispatch demoralizing news, could not interview officers without permission, could not report casualties before they were officially reported and were subject to court martial]

And Murtha should admit that redeployment of US troops to Korea from nearby Japan was time-consuming and dangerous. The troops which were first sent to Korea were the ones stationed closest to Korea, and happened to be the least prepared to fight.

41 posted on 08/24/2007 11:43:37 AM PDT by syriacus (If the US troops had remained in S. Korea in 1949, there would have been no Korean War (1950-53))
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To: syriacus

Schoolchildren of Da Nang
"celebrate" the anniversary of the fail of Saigon
Vietnam Conflict Remembered,
Sunday, 2 April, 2000, BBC
42 posted on 08/24/2007 11:47:22 AM PDT by syriacus (If the US troops had remained in S. Korea in 1949, there would have been no Korean War (1950-53))
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To: syriacus; All
In July, 1950, Truman sent troops back to Korea, Task Force Smith.
43 posted on 08/24/2007 12:25:08 PM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: cinives

“I don’t want to support the lefty position at all,...”

I understand that perfectly well......the terminology is my bugaboo, as I’m still PO’d about the slander and libel against us and the combat mission in SVN. I tend to speak up when it seems necessary or apropos, whether to lefties or well-meaning decent folks like yourself. Sometimes one cannot distinguish between deliberate slander/revisionism and inadvertent and unintentional supporting language.

Single most important thing to remember IMO is that ALL combat US troops were gone by Feb 73.....and that even with the lefty congress reneging on the the S Vietnamese armaments promised, they were still able to hold on for more than 2 yrs before the great and glorious commie “victory” in Apr, 75. Incidentally, while US aid for the South was not forthcoming, the Chinese and Russian aid to the North continued.......STILL it took 2+ years, LOL. Doesn’t speak too well for the commie troops, does it?

Peace. I’d have read your last post and answered last nite but we had a power-out from about 10pm until an hour ago......2500 volt wire hit by sparks from Above came down in neighbors yard. Waaaay different from a 440v wire, trust me.


44 posted on 08/24/2007 12:56:33 PM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: neverdem
Not exactly, while they are all tyrannies, China and Vietnam have embraced capitalism, a fundamental contradiction to their original reason for being in control of their governments in one party states. Both China and Vietnam are living in interesting times.

Here are the State Department 2006 Human Rights Reports on China and Vietnam. I visited China [Beijing] about seven years ago. I was not impressed. It reminded me a lot of the Soviet Union. I don't see freedom and democracy breaking out anytime soon. Capitialism is just being used as a tool of the state.

China (includes Tibet, Hong Kong, and Macau)

Vietnam

45 posted on 08/24/2007 2:45:45 PM PDT by kabar
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To: kabar

Thanks for the links.


46 posted on 08/24/2007 3:33:23 PM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: neverdem
Great source on Task Force Smith! Thank you!

Here's a little more information on the first division which was sent to Korea.

General MacArthur chose [the 24th Division] on the basis of location. The 24th Division was closer to Korea than other combat units in Japan and could be deployed more rapidly.

From the standpoint of combat readiness, while there was little to choose from among the four divisions in Japan, the 24th Division had been reported on 30 May 1950 as having the lowest combat effectiveness of the major units. ...65 percent combat effective.

Murtha should take note that on some days the weather conditions in Korea were too poor for landings. He shouldn't assume redeployed troops can be easily sent back to a country experiencing an emergency.
47 posted on 08/24/2007 6:28:54 PM PDT by syriacus (If the US troops had remained in S. Korea in 1949, there would have been no Korean War (1950-53))
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