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Dresden vs. Auschwitz (Germans, as victims of WW2)
Haaretz ^ | 23/08/2007 | Aviva Lori

Posted on 08/23/2007 12:54:32 PM PDT by lizol

Dresden vs. Auschwitz

By Aviva Lori

In February 2005, Dr. Gilad Margalit visited Dresden. The winter of 2005 was cold, but at the events marking the 60th anniversary of the Allied bombing of the city it was hot. Very hot. About 5,000 neo-Nazis descended on Dresden from all over Germany and from throughout Europe for the big demonstration on February 13, a Sunday.

It was a colorful, violent demonstration that sought to carve out territory in the streets and especially in the national consciousness. The massive physical presence of the demonstrators only heightened the growing recognition in Germany in recent years that the time has come to make it plain that the victims of World War II did not have a monopoly on suffering.

The questions of who suffered more and who is more to blame are not new questions in Germany, but they have been increasingly troubling the Germans. Responsibility and guilt feelings are no longer self-evident. Advertisement "It was a huge demonstration," Margalit recalls. "All the streams of this scene were there, from the wildest radicals - tattooed, skinhead thugs - to local members of parliament, well-dressed, pleasant-smelling people. They marched to commemorate the bombing raids on the city, which have come to symbolize the suffering of the entire German people. True, [the demonstrators] were a relatively small number out of a population of 74 million, but it took place in the light of day and with police protection. And they don't want to hear about the Holocaust."

(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: auschwitz; dresden; germany; holocaust; jewish; jews; moralabsolutes; moralrelativism; poland; rationalization; ww2
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1 posted on 08/23/2007 12:54:34 PM PDT by lizol
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To: lizol

When are they going to have marches in Coventry?


2 posted on 08/23/2007 12:58:39 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: lizol

Any idiot that thinks Germans suffered as much as their victims is just that, an idiot.


3 posted on 08/23/2007 12:59:17 PM PDT by calex59
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To: lizol

Oh, cry me a FReepin’ river. You try to take over the World and exterminate all the Jews, bad things are going to happen to you. The NAZIs were as bad as it gets. Everything we did in Europe, and more, was easily justified.


4 posted on 08/23/2007 12:59:32 PM PDT by gridlock (You’ll never grow old with Hillary-Care!)
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To: lizol
And they don't want to hear about the Holocaust.

Those that ignore history are condemned to repeat it!

5 posted on 08/23/2007 1:00:32 PM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: lizol
Actually - the allies bombing of Dresden was not the brightest thing we did in WWII. The city had no military significance and was bulging at the seems with innocent refugees.

And before I hear the - The German citizens deserved what they got answer - We just fought a war against Iraq. Can we fire bomb some cities there and kill a quarter of million people and just say they deserved it? If not - why? Saddam was just as evil as Hitler.

6 posted on 08/23/2007 1:04:19 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: calex59
The Germans may not have suffered but one thing is for sure — they asked for it and they deserved every bit of suffering that they got.
7 posted on 08/23/2007 1:04:55 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: wideawake
When are they going to have marches in Coventry?

And Rotterdam, and Warsaw, and Guernica.....

8 posted on 08/23/2007 1:05:08 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: lizol
“Toward the end of the war, the Allies bombed dozens of German cities. Dresden suffered the greatest losses. Between February 13 and 15, 1945, the city was pounded and all but destroyed. About 35,000 people died in the air raids. One result was to change the direction of the German discourse of guilt. Many Germans exchanged their feelings of guilt for the Nazis’ crimes into a feeling of suffering and victimization. “The narrative of suffering is deeply rooted in the Nazi conception, and even people who were not Nazis shared part of this narrative,” Margalit says. “The bombings were described as a great wrong inflicted on the Germans by the Allies, who were waging all-out war, a war utterly unlike that of the Germans.”

Is it not possible that the Allies really did bomb a civilian population without restraint?”

I lived in Bavaria for four years and visited Dresden when it was still in the DDR. The Commie travel guides played up the allied bombing of Dresden, when made me very angry since the Soviets treated the Germans as bad as the Germans had treated Soviet citizens, and that was very badly. Germans were moving West to escape the Red Army, preferring the Western allies.

I have questioned the need for the bombing of Dresden, which was not an industrial city, and was full of refugees.
However, Hitler had indiscriminately bombed London, including the more recent V-1 and V-2 rockets. Did bombing Dresden hasten the end of the war against Germany like the A-Bomb did against Japan. I am not sure about that, but if it saved allied lives, it was probably justifiable.

Certainly, the Dresden bombing should not be spoken in the same breath with the Holocaust, or even the starving of the Dutch People after they rose up during Market-Garden, or the Katyn Forrest massacre by Stalin.

9 posted on 08/23/2007 1:05:12 PM PDT by GeorgefromGeorgia
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To: lizol
I will tell you the simple difference...if the Nazi regime had not risen to power (with the support of the German people at the time) and committed the agression and atrocities like it did at Ausschwitz and throughout Europe, the allies would NEVER have committed a bombing campaing like Dresden to break their will and defeat them.

There is no moral comparison or equivalence. The former occurred because tyrants and those who supported them committed violence and agression against innocent peoples and nations. The latter happened as the allies committed violence against the perpetrators and those nations, cities, and peoples who provided material and moral support in the all out war that World War II was.

It was hell...but it was unleashed on the hellions and their peoples. In the end, the German people and Japanese people wanted NO MORE. They were made over into good Germans and good Japanese by the horrific events. I know this for sure...had Hitler and Tojo succeeded, the hell on earth that would have resulted would have been many orders of magnitude worse...world-wide...than what occurred at Dresden and Hiroshima and Nagasaki to put a stop to it.

We waged all out war to end what would have been a much more, continuing brutal reign of terror and killing world-wide had we not stopped it in the fashion that we did.

10 posted on 08/23/2007 1:07:06 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Liberty is not Free. Never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: GeorgefromGeorgia
“The bombings were described as a great wrong inflicted on the Germans by the Allies, who were waging all-out war, a war utterly unlike that of the Germans.”

LOL!

Yes, the Nazis were extremely restrained in their warfare.

The Poles are grateful for their mildness and the people of Stalingrad look back to those lovely days of the half-hearted Nazi siege of their city.

11 posted on 08/23/2007 1:08:16 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: BenLurkin

And if anyone thinks we owe Germany for Dresden, consider The Marshall Plan as “payment in full.”


12 posted on 08/23/2007 1:09:03 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: 2banana
Saddam was just as evil as Hitler.

So, are there degrees of evil? A little evil is acceptable but a lot of evil is a bad thing? Now, to compare the Nazi "Final Solution" to a thug like Saddam is just laughable. Saddam killed people out of some kind of blood lust or lust for power and control. What Hitler and the Third Reich did is something of a different magnitude and not comparable.

13 posted on 08/23/2007 1:11:00 PM PDT by mc5cents (Show me just what Mohammd brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman)
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To: dfwgator

The Marshall Plan AND forty years of keeping the Russians out.


14 posted on 08/23/2007 1:11:40 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: BenLurkin

And the 31 US Servicemen who gave their lives during the Berlin Airlift.


15 posted on 08/23/2007 1:12:56 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: lizol
The Germans should feel guilt - they earned it - it's theirs.

Now and forever.

World War II Germany was a modern culture that acted worse than the lowest, creepiest bush tribe. ( No insult meant to primitive people). It wasn't a few bad apples acting on their own - it was the whole figgin culture.

Shame on them. Shame on all of them.

Let the Germans live with the guilt. It's the least they can do.

16 posted on 08/23/2007 1:12:59 PM PDT by GOPJ (It's not the spelling ---- groupthink's killing newspapers.)
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To: Jeff Head

The reason there have been no more decisive victories since WWII is because we don’t fight “all out” any more.


17 posted on 08/23/2007 1:13:21 PM PDT by DirtyPigpen
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To: dfwgator
And if anyone thinks we owe Germany for Dresden, consider The Marshall Plan as “payment in full.”

And them some...

18 posted on 08/23/2007 1:14:38 PM PDT by GOPJ (It's not the spelling ---- groupthink's killing newspapers.)
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To: 2banana
We did it to break the will of the German people. It was tragic...it was hell...but fighting that all out war in that fashion was also necessary IMHO.

Also, IMHO, one of the things we did wrong in Iraq is not pacify, with extreme prejudice, those towns and cities that support the insurgents and terrorists. It has caused the fighting...again, IMHO...to last much longer and cost many more of our own than it otherwise might have.

I think of Fullujah as an example. No way did we need to go in there and lose 120+ of our boys fighting an urban war made to order for Jihadists and their perverted notion of martydom. We should have ringed the place with steel and offered 72 hours for everyone who wanted to get out to do so. Women and young kids one way, fighting aged men another...who would then be used to rebuild their city and to rebuild it in such a fashion that is not only much more modern and with better sanitation, but with wide avenues and clear fields of fire.

Then we should have waged an around the clock bombing campaign that reduced the entire place to rubble. Any innocents dieing in the exchange are on the heads of the terrorist and insurgents. A clear message would also have been sent. A 'demonstration" that I bet would not have had to be repeated too many more times before the Iraqis in those areas where insurgents were abetted...stoppoed abetting them.

...but that's why I will never be in charge of such operations.

19 posted on 08/23/2007 1:15:09 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Liberty is not Free. Never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: GOPJ

“I ask you: Do you want total war? If necessary, do you want a war more total and radical than anything that we can even imagine today?” - Josef Goebbels

(Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!)


20 posted on 08/23/2007 1:18:55 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: GOPJ

“Let the Germans live with the guilt. It’s the least they can do.”

The thing is, that they probably don’t want it anymore.


21 posted on 08/23/2007 1:19:17 PM PDT by lizol (Liberal - a man with his mind open ... at both ends)
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To: lizol

I seem to recall that the Dresden bombing was done to placate Stalin. The Germans were on the ropes, it was the tail end of the war. Dresden was a city of refugees fleeing from the communists. They weren’t all Germans. Kurt Vonnegut was one of many POWs kept there. Coventry England was bombed, but the difference was the English knew it was coming. The Brit. Gov’t. chose not inform the populous for fear that the Germans would find out that their code was broken. By the time Dresden was bombed most of the German Cities were in total ruin and their army was surrending to us in droves. Well, Stalin appreciated it.


22 posted on 08/23/2007 1:19:54 PM PDT by Bringbackthedraft
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To: Jeff Head
After V-E Day thousands of hard-core Nazis ceased to exist.

We don't discuss it.

After we took Baghdad, we needed to have thousands of hard-core Fedayeen disappear - but they didn't because the place was crawling with journalists.

And so it goes.

23 posted on 08/23/2007 1:20:27 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: lizol
The moral equivalence of this is both absurd and revealing. Apparently many Germans still do not regard the German Jews gassed at Auschwitz as German, although many were indeed citizens of the Reich. Some Germans ignore their history and embrace a false dichotomy in the vain hope of claiming the status of victim - and the bogus moral authority that accompanies it - in today’s pc world.
24 posted on 08/23/2007 1:20:44 PM PDT by mojito
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To: 2banana; GeorgefromGeorgia
Dresden was a communications/transportation hub, and the Soviets wanted some help.

That's not to say they couldn't have concentrated on the railways and other targets without firebombing...

25 posted on 08/23/2007 1:20:48 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Jeff Head
We did it to break the will of the German people. It was tragic...it was hell...but fighting that all out war in that fashion was also necessary IMHO.

Dude - we bombed Dresden in February of 1945. The war lasted a scant two more months. The will of the German people was completely broken at that time. The German army was completely broken. Everyone knew the war was over and Germany had lost.

26 posted on 08/23/2007 1:21:46 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: Calvin Locke

Hindsight is 20/20. As Clemenceau put it, “War is a series of calamaties that result in victory.”


27 posted on 08/23/2007 1:21:53 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: 2banana
Dude - we bombed Dresden in February of 1945. The war lasted a scant two more months.

It lasted a scant two more months precisely because we did bomb Dresden.

28 posted on 08/23/2007 1:25:08 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: 2banana
Sorry...we had gone through years of hell...Europe had gone through much more.

We punctuated what was happening to the NAzis and German people with Dresden. Just like with the Imperialists we punctuated what was happening with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In Japan, we avoided a very costly invasion by so doing. I believe we avoided equal hardships amongst the German people and their leadership by doing the same type of thing with Dresden.

Horrible thing, horrific thing...but as I said, it was the end points made regarding any will or desire on their part to have any fight or last stands.

29 posted on 08/23/2007 1:28:45 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Liberty is not Free. Never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: 2banana; Jeff Head
Dude, 2banana, the bombing of Dreseden was like, totally, just two weeks after the Battle of the Bulge in which the Nazis almost succeeded in punching through the Allied line.

And Dresden, dude, was like, totally the place through which to route troops to try to hold back the Soviets for a second shot.

30 posted on 08/23/2007 1:29:23 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: dfwgator

Amen...see my post 29.


31 posted on 08/23/2007 1:29:33 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Liberty is not Free. Never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: lizol

Note to the Germans:

If you don’t start no crap, there won’t be no crap.


32 posted on 08/23/2007 1:30:37 PM PDT by Ikemeister
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To: Jeff Head

Remember that at the time there was a lot of concern that the Nazis would establish the National Redoubt in the mountains of Bavaria and fight a protracted guerilla war that could have gone on for years.


33 posted on 08/23/2007 1:32:23 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: dfwgator
It lasted a scant two more months precisely because we did bomb Dresden.

I guess those 100+ Soviet Divisions crossing the German/Polish border had nothing to do with it...

34 posted on 08/23/2007 1:34:05 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: lizol

(repost from an FR thread done many moons ago)

Check out what the city of Dresden says (at the URLs below).
The written text below is my (VOA’s) commentary...

1945 wasn’t the first time Dresden took it on the chin during a war;
this URL used to have an old print of the earlier destruction of
Dresden...looked a lot like the WWII destruction.
http://www.dresden.de/index.html?node=6972

Don’t let anyone tell you that Dresden was simply a place where
clocks, cameras and Baroque buildings were made.
It was also an industrial center
http://www.dresden.de/index.html?node=6981

Yes, the 1945 bombing raids didn’t need to be as extensive in
light of the military situation...but when the USA loses two generations
of men in two World Wars, it will be interesting to see how the
end is “punctuated”.
http://www.dresden.de/index.html?node=6986

It’s been a few years since I’ve been at the site, but they’ve sure
skinnied down their admission of Dresden having plenty of
industry in the WWII time-frame.
At least they are wise enough not to say “Vee vere not involved”.


35 posted on 08/23/2007 1:35:30 PM PDT by VOA
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To: Jeff Head; 2banana
The Nazis thought they could launch V-2s into London to terrorize the British population and yet were somehow exempt from retaliation?

The Nazis were begging for a Dresden and got exactly what they deserved.

If all the ~1500 V-2s launched into England had reached their targets accurately, they would have killed more than a quarter million British civilians.

The Nazis deserved 10 Dresdens.

36 posted on 08/23/2007 1:36:18 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: wideawake

“About 5,000 neo-Nazis descended on Dresden . . .”

New Nazis?! I’m thinking, wow, those guys are fags too—we
should like totally bomb those Nazi dudes again, fer sure!


37 posted on 08/23/2007 1:39:19 PM PDT by tumblindice (Run away Godzilla--it's Canklesaurus Rex!)
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To: lizol
pleasant-smelling people

Sure, if you love B.O.

This whole article is so ridiculous it's hard to know where to begin. Are you sure it didn't come from The Onion? I mean, it's just like reading that Pol Pot wants people to understand that he suffered, too.

38 posted on 08/23/2007 1:40:41 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: wideawake
"....Like the widows and cripples in old London town

Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun."

- Tom Lehrer

39 posted on 08/23/2007 1:43:25 PM PDT by Notary Sojac ("If it ain't broken, fix it 'till it is" - Congress)
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To: 2banana; Jeff Head
I guess those 100+ Soviet Divisions crossing the German/Polish border had nothing to do with it...

The Soviet offensive had stalled mostly due to the troops being routed through Dresden.

One of the reasons why Zhukov held off on taking Berlin was because the Soviets were taking so many casualties on the southern part of the front they'd opened that he wanted to hold troops in reserve.

Dresden and its rail systems were a lifeline for the Nazis and delayed the fall of berlin.

40 posted on 08/23/2007 1:44:34 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: lizol

for reference by the forum:

“The Dreden Legend”
by Rebecca Grant

in “The Air Force Magazine”, October 2004, Vol. 87, No. 10

http://www.afa.org/magazine/oct2004/1004dresden.asp

(in pdf format):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/oct2004/1004dresden.pdf


41 posted on 08/23/2007 1:46:41 PM PDT by VOA
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To: 2banana; dfwgator
Of course the Russians had a lot to do with it. Dresden was also a message to them about what our air forces were capable of at the time...to ensure they didn't keep on going.

As it was, the time line went like this:

Dec. 16, 1944 through 25 January 1945: Battle of the Bulge. The costliest battle for American forces of the entire war in terms of the numbers of soldiers killed over the space of time. 19,000 in five weeks.

13-16 February 1945: Dresden is bombed. Dresden was a recognized center for communications and transportation for the entire southern eastern front. Many of the refugees were soldiers who were reprovisioning there. It was also the largest German city left entirely intact throughout the war. It was bombed on night by 800 British bombers and then two days by 500+ American aircraft. 35,000+ people died...some estimates are much higher, nearly 70,000. At the time, clear reports indicated that German moral, both militarily and civically was crushed by the report, both near and far.

8 May, 1945 V-E Day. Almost 3 months after Dresden.

Do not get me wrong. I have great affinity for the German people as a whole. I have many relatives from there and many friends. I talked to many people during the two years I spent there in the mid-1970's, living on the economy. The vast majority I spoke with admitted at the time that as a people, they had been mesmerized and led, willingly, down the primrose path by Hitler and his cronies. They recognized that it led to their abject and total defeat...and the destruction that was wrought upon them.

At that time, they did not blame us in the least. They recognized that theblame lay with the tyrants who came to pwoer, and to them for not seeing it, despite Hitelrs own writings. They also knew that if they had not lost...the entire world would have experienced a decent ito probably the darkest hours of its entire history.

As with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Dresden was an awful necessity of war that punctuated the allies' will in total defeat of the NAzis. That point was made and taken...and, IMHO, it also worked.

42 posted on 08/23/2007 1:46:48 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Liberty is not Free. Never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: wideawake
Dude, 2banana, the bombing of Dreseden was like, totally, just two weeks after the Battle of the Bulge in which the Nazis almost succeeded in punching through the Allied line.

Well, wideawake, let us see.

The Battle of the Bulge was essentially over by January 1st, 1945 (ie all German offensive operations had failed and were over)
The bombing of Dresden was essentially over by the end of February, 1945.

That is about 9 weeks.

In those 9 weeks:

The Soviets capture Warsaw.
The Soviets capture most of Eastern Europe (up to the Danube River)
Over 1 million Soviet troops approach the Polish/German border
The US Army (with Allies) captures all of the low countries and enters Germany.

Yep - it sure makes sense to fire-bomb a military insignificant German city packed with refugees...like those crazy Germans were on a fricken roll.

43 posted on 08/23/2007 1:55:12 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: wideawake
The Nazis thought they could launch V-2s into London to terrorize the British population and yet were somehow exempt from retaliation?

Hey - the Nazi also performed medical experimentation on children. Can we do the same on German children and Iraqi children?

44 posted on 08/23/2007 1:57:11 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: Jeff Head
Well said.

Chuck Yeager said as much in his autobiography. The fighter group he was assigned to were given a strafing mission towards the end of the war. No one was thrilled about it, but they did it.

War is a grim business. If you fight, you do it totally. Hoping that war will never happen again.

45 posted on 08/23/2007 1:57:35 PM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: lizol

Because of Dresden, the Germans were spared a Hiroshima.

War sucks. It sucks more for the losers.


46 posted on 08/23/2007 1:59:08 PM PDT by Alouette (Vicious Babushka)
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To: Jeff Head
Sounds a lot what Michael Savage said.

I am totally on board with that thinking.

47 posted on 08/23/2007 2:00:53 PM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: GOPJ
And them some...

Actually, other than the UK or France, Germany got the Marshall money as a loan, which it repaid (at least for the most part). You also have to keep in mind that German patents that were "lost" as a result of WWII had a value several times that of the Marshall funds (which were, as I said, repaid).

The biggest effect of the Marshall plan on the FRG was a psychological one.
48 posted on 08/23/2007 2:01:12 PM PDT by wolf78 (Penn & Teller Libertarian - Equal Opportunity Offender)
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To: lizol
You reap what you sow.

More people need to understand this.

49 posted on 08/23/2007 2:01:13 PM PDT by 3niner (War is one game where the home team always loses.)
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To: calex59
Any idiot that thinks Germans suffered as much as their victims is just that, an idiot.

It wouldn't matter if they did, there is an essential moral difference between aggression and defense.

50 posted on 08/23/2007 2:02:31 PM PDT by 3niner (War is one game where the home team always loses.)
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