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Family files claim in slaying of boy, 16, by lawmen (Dial 911 and die)
The San Francisco Chronicle ^ | August 25, 2007 | Henry K. Lee

Posted on 08/25/2007 9:12:19 AM PDT by Reeses

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To: grjr21
The only way two trained adult deputies could be scared of a 16 yo with a letherman is if they are cowards.

How easy to say from the comfort of a computer chair.

61 posted on 08/25/2007 2:00:58 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead)
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To: skinnycook
Not necessarily at all. What it means is that he tried to use a non-lethal method for controlling theboy, and pepper spray cans used by the police have a singificantly greater range than the length of a young mans arm, and failed.

That failing, and if the kid kept coming at them with the knife, they were left with the choice of risking serious injury or death themselves, or defending themselves.

As I said, that's a lot of ifs, but that is what appears to have happened. I will wait for more details to form a final conclusion.

62 posted on 08/25/2007 2:22:25 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Liberty is not Free. Never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: grjr21
Well I've been a 16 year old, been to school with sixteen year olds, counseled sixteen year olds, taught sixteen year olds, cuffed and chained 16 year olds, and watched them get sentenced to long stretches in juvie, put ;em in the van. and driven them to the pokey or to the state hospital or whatever.

And I've watched crazy people fight and hurt others.

I'd say that your sample wasn't sufficiently diverse to form a reliable judgment.

63 posted on 08/25/2007 3:02:16 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: jwparkerjr

Bless your heart.


64 posted on 08/25/2007 3:24:17 PM PDT by freekitty (May the eagles long fly over our beautiful and free American sky.)
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To: Mad Dawg
 

I'd say that your sample wasn't sufficiently diverse to form a reliable judgment.

OK so from now on I'll live in fear from all teenagers after all who knows what they are capable of  

65 posted on 08/25/2007 3:26:32 PM PDT by grjr21
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To: grjr21
OK so from now on I'll live in fear from all teenagers after all who knows what they are capable of

That's supposed to be an argument? There are only two choices? One has to choose between either your view that none of them is ever dangerous or somebody's view, certainly not mine, that all of them are dangerous all the time?

There's a lot to be said for bandwidth and for 32 bit bytes. The universe has more than "on" or "off" about it.

66 posted on 08/25/2007 4:06:13 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
The universe has more than "on" or "off" about it.

 

Good point and I agree with you. Unfortunately the officers in question disagree with us and decided to turn this teen off 

67 posted on 08/25/2007 4:55:00 PM PDT by grjr21
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To: grjr21

I’m going to wait for the evidence before I decide who’s guilty. I know that’s unAmerican when it comes to cops, but I’m funny that way.


68 posted on 08/25/2007 5:32:06 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Reeses
Sheriff's statement

Family's version of the story

69 posted on 08/25/2007 6:17:05 PM PDT by knuthom
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To: grjr21
I believe two competently trained deputies should be able to take down a “slight” 16 yo without gunfire

As a youngster decades ago, I witnesses a policeman take down a much larger and younger drunk with a broken whiskey bottle using his billie in about 5 seconds...what changed since then?

70 posted on 08/25/2007 6:29:33 PM PDT by OregonRancher (.)
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To: Reeses

Exactly. If the kid was simply in “acute mental distress” and didn’t pose a threat to anyone, why didn’t they just call his doctor? (/sarcasm off)


71 posted on 08/25/2007 8:33:32 PM PDT by TNdandelion
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To: Reeses
That's why police are trained to kill these days

Do you really believe this? I bet you believe a lot of crazy conspiracy theories too, don't you?

72 posted on 08/25/2007 8:43:00 PM PDT by bluefish (I'm Hillaryphobing...)
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To: bluefish
I don't believe in unfounded conspiracy theories. I'm sure the police academy does not outright say use this tactic to minimize lawsuit costs. But based on many news stories cops these days know the rules:

All this is because of lawsuits. I suppose I shouldn't hate the lawyers but hate the game. It's sad though when a 16 year old boy gets shot up by two highly trained police officers for reasons of lawsuit management.

73 posted on 08/25/2007 9:21:18 PM PDT by Reeses (Leftism is powered by the evil force of envy.)
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To: Jeff Head
"A 16 year old with a knife can kill you just as dead as an adult."

The Police Infallibility BS is getting deep here. Short of the kid having a sword and knowing how to use it multiple deputies with night sticks and body armor could have dealt with him in a nonlethal manner. British police deal with this every day and very few people ever get shot.

74 posted on 08/25/2007 9:32:40 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: OregonRancher
what changed since then?Lots of things:

Most departments won't let people carry billy clubs any more is one of them.

Also "Drunk" is one thing. Stoned and/or nuts is quite another. I've done both. I prefer handling drunks.

75 posted on 08/26/2007 3:38:47 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Natural Law
Police infallibility BS? What about parent of wacky son BS? That never happens?

Body armor? Wo gets issued body armor? Were the deputies in question issued body armor? And mutatis mutandis for billy clubs: Who gets issued them? Who is allowed to use them?

If these deputies were not issued body armor and billy clubs then what are you saying? That some other deputies in some parallel universe might have handled things differently? Who can argue with that?

76 posted on 08/26/2007 3:42:00 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: knuthom
Yvette believes that for Jeremiah the line between his two worlds [the spiritual and the physical] was becoming less defined," says Pisani.

Layman's version: Poor Jeremiah had been flipping out and his parents had no clue.

When Jeremiah got into the front, Isaiah leapt into the back seat. Jeremiah followed and sat on his brother; he did not hold him at knife-point. According to the informed narrative of Pisani and Ripley, Jeremiah sat on Isaiah and yelled out a death threat. He did not seem to know his brother's name. Isaiah told him, "You do not want to kill me, Bud."

Oh. No death threat. None at all. That's why the poor little kid is telling Jeremiah that he doesn't want to kill him. You know how kids are.

Mark Chass began madly clicking through the phone book on his cell phone, looking for preprogrammed emergency service numbers. He dialed what he thought was the fire department, asking for manpower and medics to help him subdue Jeremiah.

No kidding: this is why you should practice dialing 911. When the adrenaline dumps people get dump and uncoordinated. They can't even dial 911. And what did Mark think the FD was going to do? Hose Jeremiah down?

Yvette began singing and chanting to Jeremiah--meditation chants that they often did together with their spiritual group--trying to bring him back to reality, to connect with him, to show him who she was. Well, there you have it. Not that I'm against spiritual exercises, but do it yourself stuff like that provides a fertile environment for people flipping out.

It also provides a fertile environment for people to summon people whose MO includes the use of deadly force and then to blame anybody but themselves and their long enabling when deadly force actually gets used.

You don't have to be arguing 'Police Infallibility' -- the sophistical overstatement of the position of defending the police by those whose default stand is that police are always wrong, to see from the account of the parents that what we had here was a ticking bomb and adults who kept on sticking their fingers in their ears and saying,"Ticking? Ticking? I hear no ticking! There's no ticking going on around here!"

Some of you really don't get how families can cluster around psychosis in shielding ways. They don't know what's going on, they love the kid, they end up in a borderline folie a deux right up until somebody ends up dead. I've seen it with a suicide, with an almost suicide -- where the families first response was to buy themselves new clothes so they would look nice for the depressed mother, and in incest cases, where the Mom ignores the daughter's complaints of vaginal soreness.

So when things are really quite bizarre, some deputies show up and the whole thing is their fault.

Some of you are playing into the pathology of the parents.

77 posted on 08/26/2007 4:15:04 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Jeff Head

While I generally agree with you, I’ll also note that once upon a time, this would have been dealt with by judicious application of a baton. But that option is gone, since striking someone and bruising them and possibly even breaking bones, would be “police brutality”. So officers aren’t trained much with them, and in many cases don’t carry them.

So as a result of misguided anti-”police brutality” Liberalism, we now shoot the perp in this sort of situation.


78 posted on 08/26/2007 4:25:57 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: OregonRancher

See the comments on batons and baton usage, in particular the ones after your post.


79 posted on 08/26/2007 4:36:50 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: FreedomPoster

From the links in post 69, they used a baton and pepper spray and it had no affect.


80 posted on 08/26/2007 5:09:08 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead)
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