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They Wait For Us To Run Again (Mark Steyn On Vietnam's Cut N Run Legacy Alert)
Orange County Register ^ | 08/25/2007 | Mark Steyn

Posted on 08/26/2007 3:13:23 AM PDT by goldstategop

American victory in the Cold War looks inevitable in hindsight. It didn't seem that way in the Seventies. And, as Iran reminds us, the enduring legacy of the retreat from Vietnam was the emboldening of other enemies. The forces loosed in the Middle East bedevil to this day, in Iran, and in Lebanon, which Syria invaded shortly after the fall of Saigon and after its dictator had sneeringly told Henry Kissinger, "You've betrayed Vietnam. Someday you're going to sell out Taiwan. And we're going to be around when you get tired of Israel."

President Assad understood something that too many Americans didn't. Then as now, the anti-war debate is conducted as if it's only about the place you're fighting in: Vietnam is a quagmire, Iraq is a quagmire, so get out of the quagmire. Wrong. The "Vietnam war" was about Vietnam, if you had the misfortune to live in Saigon.

But if you lived in Damascus and Moscow and Havana, the Vietnam war was about America: American credibility, American purpose, American will. For our enemies today, it still is. Osama bin Laden made a bet – that, notwithstanding the T-shirt slogan, "These Colors Do Run": They ran from Vietnam, and they ran from the helicopters in the desert, and from Lebanon and Somalia – and they will run from Iraq and Afghanistan, because that is the nature of a soft, plump ersatz-superpower that coils up in the fetal position if you prick its toe. Even Republicans like Sen. John Warner seem peculiarly anxious to confirm the bin Laden characterization.

(Excerpt) Read more at ocregister.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 110th; alqaeda; antiamericanmovement; cutandrun; cutnrun; defeatocrats; democrats; iraq; iraqwar; islamofascism; johnwarner; left; marksteyn; orangecountyregister; osamabinladen; quagmireredux; rinos; rop; steyn; vietnam; visforvictory
Its about American credibility, purpose and will. Our country's enemies understand the Vietnam legacy better than America's politicians do. The Cut N Crowd gives gives credence to the notion that America cannot pay a high price to defend its interests and its friends. For all our sakes, we better prove the likes of Carl Levin and John Warner wrong.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

1 posted on 08/26/2007 3:13:26 AM PDT by goldstategop
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To: Pokey78

Steyn ping list ping.


2 posted on 08/26/2007 3:20:16 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: FreedomPoster
This is the best of Steyn's column, which goes to core over the "orthodox" narrative of Vietnam as a "lost" war:

But, if you're not a self-absorbed poseur like Sulzberger, "Vietnam" is not a "tragedy" but a betrayal. The final image of the drama – the U.S. helicopters lifting off from the Embassy roof with desperate locals clinging to the undercarriage – is an image not just of defeat but of the shabby sell-outs necessary to accomplish it.

At least in Indochina, those who got it so horribly wrong – the Kerrys and Fondas and all the rest – could claim they had no idea of what would follow.

To do it all over again in the full knowledge of what followed would turn an aberration into a pattern of behavior. And as the Sirik Mataks of Baghdad face the choice between staying and dying or exile and embittered evenings in the new Iraqi émigré restaurants of London and Los Angeles, who will be America's allies in the years ahead?

The Left can claim they didn't know what would happen in Indochina. They have no such excuse for betraying America's friends again.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

3 posted on 08/26/2007 3:25:00 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop

It should be clear to even the dimmest Liberal that failure in Iraq results Iranian/Syrian dominance in the Middle East and Jihad let loose everywhere to devour the world. But they have priorities, and total political control in DC is it. They think, stupidly, that if they oust republicans, they can make a deal with Islam to play nice. Bottom line? They’re traitors.


4 posted on 08/26/2007 3:29:41 AM PDT by hershey
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To: FreedomPoster

Mark for later reading.


5 posted on 08/26/2007 3:32:19 AM PDT by Retief
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To: FreedomPoster

BTTT


6 posted on 08/26/2007 3:52:59 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion (The idea around which liberalism coheres is that NOTHING actually matters except PR.)
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To: goldstategop; P-Marlowe; George W. Bush; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Professor Bernard Lewis' dictum would be self-evident: "America is harmless as an enemy and treacherous as a friend."

This is an absolutely devastating article by Steyn.

In the future, we must fight to accomplish a combat objective, or we must know going in that we are attempting to accomplish a political objective.

To accomplish a combat objective should require of Congress a "Letter of Reprisal."

To accomplish a political objective should require a declaration of all-out, full mobilization, no-holds-barred War.

7 posted on 08/26/2007 3:56:09 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion

bump


8 posted on 08/26/2007 3:59:58 AM PDT by carton253 (And if that time does come, then draw your swords and throw away the scabbards.)
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To: goldstategop

We can never hear it enough: We can not allow the rat to force America to cut and run.


9 posted on 08/26/2007 4:27:08 AM PDT by jmaroneps37 (Liberals are "American aliens." They were born IN America but they are not OF America.)
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To: xzins
Very well said! As an aside, war is ugly and people need to understand that when people want to take your life and liberty from you you must be willing to accept participating in that ‘ugliness’ if you are to defend those peope and ideals that are precious to you.

I was just talking to someone about Iwo Jima and what we did there to clear the tunnel system the Japanese had built to defend it. Over 25,000 Japanese died there in a relatively short period of time, along with over 7,000 Americans. What would our contemporary democratic party, Hollywood, and the media have said about that? I guarantee they woud have had us suing for peace and making deals with the Emperor, and the world would be a different place today.

10 posted on 08/26/2007 4:40:00 AM PDT by pieceofthepuzzle
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To: goldstategop; hershey

.

NEVER FORGET

.

HILLARY RODHAM’s
WILLIAM CLINTON’s
JOHN KERRY’s
BARBARA BOXER’s
JOHN KERRY’s
TED KENNEDY’s
JANE FONDA’s
TOM HAYDEN’s
JESSE JACKSON’s
RAMSEY CLARK’s (21st Century SADDAM Defense Attorney)

...active suppoort of Communist North Vietnam’s push to take over a then Free South Vietnam during the Vietnam War ..brought on for all to sadly see:

.

Pictures of a vietnamese Re-Education (SLAVE LABOR) Camp

http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1308949/posts

.

..”JOURNEY from the FALL”.. MoviePremieres = Fall of Saigon CLARITY..

http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1806248/posts

.

What price is there for the still Free (that’s US) to now pay
with these Anti-Freedom people
pushing hard for a repeat
...in a new time of war
...in a new century
...with our own Freedom
...now directly at stake
...right here at home..?

.

NEVER FORGET

.


11 posted on 08/26/2007 5:15:35 AM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: All; pieceofthepuzzle; Anita1; fatima; freema; jmaroneps37; xzins; goldstategop; FreedomPoster

.

The one thing the LOVE Itself needs more of in this world, for GOD is LOVE,

...is more LOVE.

And that only comes when people are FREE =

.

MEL’s -PASSION- sparked by -WE WRE SOLDIERS-

http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1085111/posts

http://www.Freerepublic.com/~aloharonnie/

http://www.Freerepublic.com/~anita1/

.


12 posted on 08/26/2007 5:31:23 AM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: All; pieceofthepuzzle

.

NEVER FORGET

.

This new 21st Century of ours is really all about freeing the women of the world...
...to be all that they already are in GOD’s Eyes,
...and all that they can be while here on the Earth.

And it may take a century to do.

.

NEVER FORGET

.


13 posted on 08/26/2007 5:37:48 AM PDT by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: goldstategop
From bin Laden's 1996 fatwa entitled, ""Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places."

"Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

"But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu."

14 posted on 08/26/2007 5:47:42 AM PDT by kabar
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To: kabar

Thanks for posting that. Actions have consequences and decisions have implications. Clinton’s decision then likely cost a substantial number of lives over the years since. Emboldening an enemy is like feeding bears. Eventually someone will pay the price.


15 posted on 08/26/2007 6:13:51 AM PDT by pieceofthepuzzle
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To: goldstategop; SandRat; freema
Just as the Viet Nam war was lost in America not Viet Nam;
the war in Iraq and/or Afghanistan will be lost in America not in Iraq and/or Afghanistan if we leave before the mission is accomplished. Unfortunately, we have people in the WH and Congress both past & present wars who have NEVER spent a day of their lives in combat. So many of the people who don’t have the guts to see this war through are the ones making the decisions. And for those who have not realized it yet, soon or later we are going to have to give the muzzies the jihad they so desperately want. And this time, we will finish the job.

Semper Fi,
Kelly

16 posted on 08/26/2007 6:43:06 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: goldstategop

17 posted on 08/26/2007 7:40:17 AM PDT by Gritty (The anti-war debate is conducted as if it's only about the place you're fighting in - Mark Steyn)
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To: goldstategop

This is an excellent article!! The Left is truly self-absorbed.


18 posted on 08/26/2007 8:16:42 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: goldstategop

I’m sure many in the Left heard rumors of the atrocities committed after we started pulling out, and dismissed them a propaganda, because they were so sure of their own views. They later found out they were horribly mistaken, and millions paid for the Leftists’ hubris with their lives. As Steyn said in this article, to do so again; to repeat what was done by abandoning Vietnam, would be unconscionable


19 posted on 08/26/2007 8:20:07 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: kellynla; goldstategop; 1stbn27; 2111USMC; 2nd Bn, 11th Mar; 68 grunt; A.A. Cunningham; ASOC; ...
It's about American credibility, purpose and will. Our country's enemies understand the Vietnam legacy better than America's politicians do.-goldstategop
20 posted on 08/26/2007 8:48:23 AM PDT by freema (Proud Marine Niece, Daughter, Wife, Friend, Sister, Aunt, Cousin, Mother, and FRiend)
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To: freema; goldstategop; RedRover; jazusamo; Girlene; xzins; Blue Ribbon Mom; lilycicero; ...
It's about American credibility, purpose and will. Our country's enemies understand the Vietnam legacy better than America's politicians do.-goldstategop

I came to the realisation quite a while back, that while we won the battles in WWII -- we are losing the war. As Mr. Steyn indicates, we take a very short-time view of any action we take, from the stock market to the pulpit; from the diplomats to the battlefields -- everything is a short-time view. Our enemies don't quit, they regroup. Take a look at the amnesty/not-amnesty immigration squabbles of the past years, from Eisenhower to Reagan to Bush -- if they can't get in one way they'll try another; they lose one politician and get two more.

If we cannot halt the creeping socialism of our government, and eliminate the entitlement mindset of our populous, our children will live to see the truth behind that list purportedly written by Alexander Tytler:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."

"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."

"From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years."

"During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4 from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Democracy is nothing more than Socialism -- the equal sharing of misery, and bondage.

21 posted on 08/26/2007 9:45:14 AM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional !!)
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To: goldstategop

This reminds me of a punch in the solar plexus.


22 posted on 08/26/2007 11:02:53 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: goldstategop; Pokey78

bttt


23 posted on 08/26/2007 12:18:39 PM PDT by aculeus
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To: xzins
Actually, that's a good idea.

I thought Bush should have sought "letters of marque" instead of a wishy-washy, Tonkinesque "resolution" before he moved on Saddam.

24 posted on 08/26/2007 12:44:02 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: kellynla
And for those who have not realized it yet, soon or later we are going to have to give the muzzies the jihad they so desperately want.

Umm, there are a couple of things wrong with this.

One, most Moslems have been happy to live in peace and quiet with their neighbors for centuries, notwithstanding the bloodthirsty conjoinders of their prophet written in green in their Korans. Indonesia prior to the 20th century is an example. The people(s) of the archipelago (some are still in the Stone Age, esp. on Borneo) were mostly Buddhist before Moslem merchants showed up over 1000 years ago. The conversion of the settled population from Buddhism to Islam was accomplished for the most part peacefully, in contrast to the experience of the Indian subcontinent, where the average emir wouldn't even bother to get out of bed on a day when he didn't feel up to killing 20,000 Hindus. The history of Islam in the subcontinent is a continuing atrocity. In other places it's somewhat different, depending on geography and regional history.

Two, mobilizing peaceful Moslems to holy war is a major Salafist and Wahhabist objective. Therefore, it follows directly, that our interest is better served by interfering however we can with the Salafist and Wahhabist message of war that they broadcast to other Moslems.

Three, it goes without saying that we should promote dissension among the radical and violent factions, further to reduce their effectiveness at spreading their message.

We don't accomplish any of those objectives by warring indiscriminately on Moslems, or indulging "final solution" sentiments at home. We need to make strong war on the extremists, but at the same time deal with an open and welcoming hand with Wahhabism's potential recruits who reject the jihadist message, or at least put it aside. In geographical terms, it helps immensely to have at least the acquiescence of organized government and the majority of people in Pakistan, when we move against the Taliban and Salafist Al Q'aedists lodged in their mountain regions.

25 posted on 08/26/2007 1:01:30 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: lentulusgracchus

I was thinking “letter of reprisal,” but we’re thinking essentially the same.


26 posted on 08/26/2007 2:21:03 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: lentulusgracchus

You must be a no-good Muslim sympathizer. Don’t you know all 1B Muslims are evil and must be destroyed? < / sarcasm >

Wise, well-worded sentiments. Not very popular around here, but nevertheless.


27 posted on 08/26/2007 2:36:52 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Scratch a liberal, find a dhimmi)
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To: lentulusgracchus

“most Moslems have been happy to live in peace and quiet”

Most people around the world were “happy to live in peace and quiet” before WWI & WWII.

Most people were “happy to live in peace and quiet” before 9/11.

Thus your first “point” is a pointless.
and your number two & three “points” aren’t worth my time.

We are at war and sooner or later we are going to have to give the muzzies the jihad they so desperately want. In the meantime, you might try reading the koran where it clearly states that all non beleivers should be killed. And if you are waiting for your “most Muslims” to prevent their militants and suicide bombers from murdering more non believers you are in for a rude awakening. They haven’t done so in the previous fifteen hundred years and they have no intention of doing it now or in the future.

Or maybe you need another 9/11 to wake up.

Let us all know when you, Alan Colmes and other muzzie apologists wise up!


28 posted on 08/26/2007 4:09:21 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: Sherman Logan

“Wise, well-worded sentiments?”

Shows how ignorant you are of islam...

All “sentimentality” will get you is dead in the muzzie world.

And when you have to bury one of yours after a muzzie bombing;
don’t come crying to me...


29 posted on 08/26/2007 4:16:54 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: xzins
Chaplin, better let those of us who are professional warriors fight this war and stick to doing what you do best... praying, anointing and giving last rites.
30 posted on 08/26/2007 4:21:32 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: kellynla

Like I said, not popular.


31 posted on 08/26/2007 6:35:04 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Scratch a liberal, find a dhimmi)
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To: kellynla; P-Marlowe; RedRover

I had service prior to my appointment as a Chaplain. I suspect I know the same as many and more than some. Obviously, many others have knowledge and experience greater than my own.

The Constitution authorizes at least 3 levels of direct offensive military operations against an enemy:

War
Letter of Marque (selected targets)
Letter of Reprisal (retribution)

The Constitution also provides other openings for offensive operations:

a. provide for the common defense (a wide open door, because it is as Congress sees fit to accomplish the same.)

b. To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

c. make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water

d. To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;


32 posted on 08/27/2007 5:26:31 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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