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Larry Craig and "Don't Tap, Don't Tell" (Must Read)
Townhall ^ | September 5, 2007 | Michael Medved

Posted on 09/05/2007 1:20:24 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

The ignominious fall of Senator Larry Craig casts new light on the importance of the nation’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy banning open homosexuals from military service.

If preventing public sex in airport men’s rooms is important enough to justify the deployment of undercover cops, isn’t it similarly significant to avoid, at all costs, sexual encounters in military latrines?

Imagine the impact on morale and unit cohesion if two guys from the same barracks engaged in toe-tapping hanky-panky (and perhaps much more) while occupying adjacent bathroom stalls in the military facilities?

Of course, advocates for gays in the military will insist that any such indulgence would involve a violation of the rules, with offenders facing stiff, severe consequences. But the impact of gay GI’s on bathroom atmospherics doesn’t just stem from the real chance of actual sex acts in the latrine, it involves whole sexualization of one of the most frequented and important conveniences on any base.

If openly gay males do nothing to compromise restroom integrity and security, why not invite female soldiers into men’s bathrooms, or open the door of women’s facilities to males? Surely, the same rules that would, theoretically, prevent gay men from hassling other men in the head would prevent hetero males from harassing women (or vice verse). Just as a gay male in the military would receive punishment for bathroom misbehavior, so to a straight guy could be busted for making improper overtures to women in the ladies room – but that wouldn’t make him any more welcome in a female facility.

The problem isn’t just the chance of molestation, it’s the radical change of mood and sensibility if you know you may be checked out as a sex object at a very private moment (of urination or defecation) when most normal people prefer to avoid any and all thoughts of physical intimacy. A bathroom becomes a vastly more uncomfortable and even menacing place if it’s used for sexual encounters, whether those connections involve gay or straight sexuality.

In a column in Sunday’s New York Times, Laura MacDonald insists that toilet sex never involves one-sided, unwanted attentions. According to the research she cites (based on “a groundbreaking dissertation” of a doctoral candidate at Washington University nearly 30 years ago) “a straight man would be left alone after that first tap or cough or look went unanswered. The initiator does not want to be beaten up or arrested or chased by teenagers, so he engages in safeguards to ensure that any physical advance will be reciprocated.”

Certainly in the case of Larry Craig, the arresting officer did nothing to discourage the Senator’s attentions until the very moment of the arrest and almost certainly invited his advances. The near unanimous revulsion regarding the incident (from Republican and Democrat, gay and straight alike) therefore has nothing to do with sexual assault or attempted rape, or any notion of the mild-mannered, bespectacled 62-year-old legislator somehow forcing himself on the burly, buff and much younger cop.

The disgust for the three term Senate toe-tapper arises instead from the very association of men’s rooms and amorous meet-ups, of toilet stalls and sex acts. We have a common and compelling interest in keeping such places free of erotic tension and that’s why we dispatch police officers to patrol public rest stations—even though they’re hardly needed to prevent outright assaults.

And if regular users of airport or public park facilities have a right to escape suggestive glances or inviting gestures that can poison an already fetid atmosphere, how much more so do young recruits (many of them eighteen or nineteen years old) the same right to avoid similar attentions (or even suspicions) from their fellow soldiers in the intimate quarters necessitated by military service? It’s no wonder that despite some fifteen years of relentless propaganda, most high ranking members of the armed services remain unconvinced that we should alter regulations to allow participation of open homosexuals.

The national shudder of discomfort and queasiness associated with any introduction of homosexual eroticism into public men’s rooms should make us more determined than ever to resist the injection of those lurid attitudes into the even more explosive situation of the U.S. military.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Idaho; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: airforce; armedforces; army; billclinton; coastguard; congress; craigscandal; democrats; dontaskdonttell; elections; gaysinthemilitary; gaystapotactics; gop; homosexualagenda; iraq; larrycraig; lavendermafia; marinecorps; military; nationaldefense; navy; partisanwitchhunt; presidentclinton; republicans; sodomites; usmc; wot
Spot on.
1 posted on 09/05/2007 1:20:25 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“(T)he very association of men’s rooms and amorous meet-ups, of toilet stalls and sex acts”, which many have called the homosexual male sex act’s “yuck” factor.


2 posted on 09/05/2007 1:25:05 AM PDT by flowerplough (Not a sociopath, merely a delusional narcissist.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Imagine the impact on morale and unit cohesion if two guys from the same barracks engaged in toe-tapping hanky-panky (and perhaps much more) while occupying adjacent bathroom stalls in the military facilities?
Do they even have bathroom stalls in military facilities?.
3 posted on 09/05/2007 1:33:26 AM PDT by jimboster (fROM)
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To: jimboster

Yes. Most barracks or dorms in the service have either several bathrooms per floor or one bathroom for 2-3 individuals. People of upper rank have their own lavatory or live in a house (as do most all married servicemembers of all ranks here in the States). Overseas, conditions are usually more spartan.


4 posted on 09/05/2007 1:37:08 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Our next president: Fred Thompson!! http://www.ImWithFred.com)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I just imagine escorting my 10YO son to the restroom and waiting by the sink as he closes the door to the stall. We begin to hear a pronounced synchronous foot-tapping from the stall next to his. I walk over to my son's door. The shadow of a hand reaches under and into my son's stall. My son responds with his standard "What the heck?!?"

Now it's you standing there...what do you do?

Hint: You don't elect the fellow to the Senate...

5 posted on 09/05/2007 1:43:52 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Caipirabob

I stand six foot tall and weigh 375 lbs. What do you think would happen if I caught someone molesting my son?


6 posted on 09/05/2007 2:02:34 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Our next president: Fred Thompson!! http://www.ImWithFred.com)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I stand six foot tall and weigh 375 lbs. What do you think would happen if I caught someone molesting my son?
I guess challenging them to a foot-race is out of the question.
7 posted on 09/05/2007 2:25:52 AM PDT by GeneralisimoFranciscoFranco (I am a facist, but only if I get to be in charge.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I stand six foot tall and weigh 375 lbs. What do you think would happen if I caught someone molesting my son?

I suspect that the world be a safer place when you were done.

As it would be in my case. I draw the scenario as a justification for Freak-boy's expulsion. If only we went after the democrats so hard!

8 posted on 09/05/2007 2:32:33 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: GeneralisimoFranciscoFranco

If they didn’t outrun me they’d wish they did when I landed on them! LOL


9 posted on 09/05/2007 2:38:11 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Our next president: Fred Thompson!! http://www.ImWithFred.com)
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To: Caipirabob

The doors to the stalls are very flimsy, a strong shoulder to a door will open it easily and then you take care of the molestor.


10 posted on 09/05/2007 4:04:19 AM PDT by Bulldawg Fan (Victory is the last thing Murtha and his fellow Defeatists want.)
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To: Bulldawg Fan

This is NOT a gay issue. It is an issue of entrapment. Someone targeted the Senator, targeted him and planned this event. They managed to get him spooked enough to sign a plea to a “lesser offence.” The whole thing smells to high heaven. Can’t Freepers recognize this?

Call in the FBI for a thorough investigation and help Larry Craig salvage his reputation!

I have never had much use for the “Magic Bullet” Senator, but this time, the one time, Arlen is on the right side of this bizarre case. Go Arlen Go! Go Larry go!


11 posted on 09/05/2007 4:28:18 AM PDT by Et in Arcadia Ego
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To: Et in Arcadia Ego
Entrapment?????

Get real...!!

If Craig didn't have a 'proclivity' for this type of dalliance, he would have yelled bloody murder and defended himself to the nth degree...

..rather than roll over for this!

12 posted on 09/05/2007 4:35:17 AM PDT by Guenevere (Duncan Hunter...President '08)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

After considering Tip O’Neills’ acceptance of Congressman’s Gerry Studds’ repeated sexual relationships with male pages, and Nancy Pelosi’s acceptance of Congressman Barney Franks’ endorsement and practice of sodomy, the Democratic party should be known as the “pervert party.â€? They have replaced the ten commandments with one: thou shalt not be a hypocrite. But their repeated construction of self-serving double-standards is hypocrisy itself.


13 posted on 09/05/2007 4:55:56 AM PDT by ChessExpert (Studds and Franks, proud representatives of the pervert party.)
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To: ChessExpert

After considering Tip O’Neills’ acceptance of Congressman Gerry Studds’ repeated sexual relationships with male pages, and Nancy Pelosis’ acceptance of Congressman Barney Franks’ endorsement and practice of sodomy, the Democratic party should be known as the “pervert party.” They have replaced the ten commandments with one: thou shalt not be a hypocrite. But their repeated construction of self-serving double-standards is hypocrisy itsel


14 posted on 09/05/2007 4:58:40 AM PDT by ChessExpert (Studds and Franks, proud representatives of the pervert party.)
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To: sauropod

read


15 posted on 09/05/2007 4:59:04 AM PDT by sauropod (You canít spell crap without the AP in it.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I’ve always maintained that homosexuality is socially problematic because of bathrooms.

For the same reason women don’t want men learing at them in the bathroom, straight men don’t want gay men learing at them in the bathroom.

What, then, is the solution? Separate bathrooms for gay men? That wouldn’t work out so good, witness Senator Craig.

So how do you maintain congenial public restrooms with homosexuals?

I know of no answer.


16 posted on 09/05/2007 5:03:49 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie
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To: Uncle Miltie

(leering)


17 posted on 09/05/2007 5:05:35 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie
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To: Et in Arcadia Ego

It is an issue of entrapment. Someone targeted the Senator, targeted him and planned this event.
_________

Again, have you an explanation for how the cop was set up and in place before Craig even entered the bathroom? How did they know which bathroom? Which stall?

Without credible answers to the above, the entrapment thing is pretty farfetched, doncha think?


18 posted on 09/05/2007 5:34:11 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Et in Arcadia Ego

Of all the absurd BS circling around this affair, “entrapment” is by far the most ridiculous.

This well-educated, intelligent man waived counsel and signed a confession (to keep things quiet). Those are the acts of a guilty man.


19 posted on 09/05/2007 5:40:26 AM PDT by Petronski (Cleveland Indians: Pennant -18)
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To: Et in Arcadia Ego
Go Arlen Go! Go Larry go!

You got that part right. Both of them should leave the public office right now. As for the rest of what you wrote, it is not an issue of entrapment, it is an issue of behavior. Can a certain group never known to restrain itself, behave themselves in a public restroom?

It seems they can't given the number of people trying to change the subject when their actual behavior is mentioned. There is no justification for what he was accused of. The only person who made him behave that way is him. He even agreed in his plea that his behavior was criminal. That's not entrapment. No action he has taken since the arrest says innocent man. It does say stupid man, and demented man, anything but innocent.

20 posted on 09/05/2007 5:47:32 AM PDT by Waryone (Constantly amazed by society's downhill slide.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
The military doesn't seem to have that much problem with the current policy.

You could also offer more private bathroom stalls.

You could place security cameras in front of the stall entrances so you can see if two persons enter the same stall and a few webcams at floor level to ensure that no real footsy is occurring.

Cameras would discourage a lot of these problems without any significant reduction in privacy. In fact, I think most of the public would make that kind of tradeoff to curb toilet perversions.
21 posted on 09/05/2007 5:50:15 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Would the music from Popeye be playing in your head?


22 posted on 09/05/2007 5:58:59 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Guenevere
“If Craig didn’t have a ‘proclivity’ for this type of dalliance...”

You’re probably right.

But I’m very uncomfortable with what I heard of the line of questioning and statements on the part of the police.

Moreover, I had no idea that “toe-tapping” was some sort of signal. I wonder now if “restless leg syndrome” is real, or a homosexual mating ritual...

I also use a wide stance when sitting in a public “thrown,” especially when I’m trying to keep expensive clothing off the floor.

Truthfully, I don’t know what’s going on with Larry Craig. I don’t know much about the other accusations of homosexual activities. But, if he’s hunting for homosexual sex in public bathrooms I want his ass out of the Senate. But I just can’t stop asking myself “what if this guy is innocent.”

I just think that the police would have done everyone...including the concept of justice...a great favor by pursuing this event to the point where clear intent could be established. Unfortunately, they didn’t get anywhere near that point.

23 posted on 09/05/2007 6:00:55 AM PDT by RavenATB
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To: RavenATB
Just ask yourself...
Would you agree to pleading to a charge of this kind of you were totally innocent?

Wouldn't you be irate & profess loudly & repeatedly your innocence?

Would you allow this 'charge' go on your record, and that you pled 'guilty'.

Thank about it.

24 posted on 09/05/2007 6:13:32 AM PDT by Guenevere (Duncan Hunter...President '08)
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To: Guenevere
“Thank about it.”

If you think that innocent people have never copped a plea bargain to avoid the “big hit” in this country, you don’t read much.

Look, I’m not saying the guy is innocent. I’m not arguing that Larry Craig is a genius, either. But, after 26 years as a military officer I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked into the eyes of someone who got themselves into a stressful situation and reacted in a way that got them into trouble and asking them “What the hell were you thinking?”.

I’ve supervised hundreds of college graduates, many of them seasoned aviators with many hundreds, sometimes thousands of hours of time in the cockpit. I know and understand stress, and how stress can affect judgement.

It’s very easy for us to sit at our computers and second-guess Craig’s actions. We’re not in his situation and we know all the outcomes, because its all played out. We’re not confronted with public humiliation, possible loss of family, loss of career, and legal jeopardy. It’s not fair or intellectually honest to sit here and pretend that Craig should have seen things as clearly and rationally as we can now.

Some people react to stress with calm professionalism and a methodical, logical approach to resolving whatever situation they’re in. But some people will do virtually anything, including self-destructive things, to escape a seriously stressful situation. In 1988 I had a college graduate tell me that she’d allowed herself to be raped, rather than try to fight off the man involved, in order to simply “get it over with” and escape a stressful situation.

You could put 100 randomly-chosen men in Larry Craig’s exact situation...all of them innocent (although I suspect Craig isn’t innocent)...and I guarantee you that confronted with an officer telling them that by taking the plea deal they would make the problem “go away,” that at least a handful of people would take the plea.

Again, I’m not arguing that Craig is innocent. I suspect that he’s not. But I’m a big advocate of “innocent until proven guilty” and I think the government has a responsibility to prove intent in a situation like this. They didn’t.

What they did was put maximum psychological pressure on a guy with a lot to lose, and lure him into taking a plea deal by promising him that they’d make the issue “go away.”

Was Craig an idiot for doing what he did? Yes.
Does the fact that Craig reacted stupidly to a very, very stressful situation mean he’s guilty? No.

25 posted on 09/05/2007 7:06:05 AM PDT by RavenATB
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
What does Larry Craig and Hillary Clinton have in common?

They both got caught tapping a shoe (Hsu).

26 posted on 09/05/2007 7:11:49 AM PDT by Suzy Quzy
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To: RavenATB

Thanks for your cleared-headed writing. Gay sex makes me cringe, but something about this cop made me cringe also. Until other named people come forward and say they had SEX with or was propositioned by Craig, I am leaning toward Craig.


27 posted on 09/05/2007 7:17:49 AM PDT by Suzy Quzy
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To: jimboster

They didn’t even have seats on the toilets, let alone stalls in the old 2 story wooden WWII barracks at the reception station at Ft Knox back in ‘79!

Firewatch at night. If you value your life don’t screw with the plastic sheeting insulating the windows. Watch the tracers at night in the distance at the ranges, hear the different weapons; boom, crack, tat-tat-tat.

To be fair that was the only place I saw facilities like that. The transient NCO barracks at Ft Stewart reminded me of a college dorm. They had three man rooms with a modular desk/wall locker arrangement facing a bed (no bunks) with a window in between.
Each room had it’s own Motel 6 style bathroom with toilet & shower in one room and the sink/mirror in a little ante room. Very nice.


28 posted on 09/05/2007 7:34:36 AM PDT by skepsel
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To: George W. Bush

I think I’d just put a turd in his hand if he reached under the stall divider while I was using the toilet.


29 posted on 09/05/2007 7:37:41 AM PDT by skepsel
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
offenders facing stiff, severe consequences

The jokes write themselves

30 posted on 09/05/2007 7:42:59 AM PDT by NRA1995 (To Congress and Mr. President: This is OUR country, and don't you forget it!)
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To: Suzy Quzy
“Thanks for your cleared-headed writing...I am leaning toward Craig.”

Well, thanks for the kind words. I’m not “pro” or “anti” Craig. It just ticks me off that the police didn’t take the incident far enough to clearly establish intent. This wasn’t a “dangerous perp” issue where they feared for the safety of the officer. It would have been easy to exchange a few words, like “do you want to”...to eliminate such “signals” as foot-tapping as something that represents “proof” that Craig was looking for sex.

I heard a caller to a radio show, yesterday, say that if we used such “signals” as proof of intent to commit prostitution we’d be arresting every woman in a short skirt that waves at a car. And, that’s a good point.

I want criminals prosecuted. But I want all Americans afforded the assumption of “innocent until proven guilty.”

I’m about 80% sure that Craig deserved to be arrested. But the 20% rumbles in my guts.

31 posted on 09/05/2007 7:49:17 AM PDT by RavenATB
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To: dmz
Without credible answers to the above, the entrapment thing is pretty farfetched, doncha think?

Not necessarily. They didn't have to be targeting the Senator - just anyone they could happen upon.

Having said that, I'm still a bit on the fence as regards 'entrapment'. I have no problem with big, burly police officers or feds posing as 12 year old girls on the internet in order to nab pedophiles. However, at least some judges seem to have an issue with it. If judges have a problem with that kind of entrapment, they might also have a problem with this kind.

32 posted on 09/05/2007 8:00:32 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody

I was responding to the following comment “Someone targeted the Senator, targeted him and planned this event.”


33 posted on 09/05/2007 8:02:12 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Et in Arcadia Ego
Entapment?
 
[LC: I don't, ah, I am not gay, I don't do these kinds of things and... ]
 
So you're willing to stipulate that he did "these" kinds of [gay] things?
 
 
Why did he say these instead of those?  Words mean things.

34 posted on 09/05/2007 9:46:55 AM PDT by VxH (One if by Land, Two if by Sea, and Three if by Wire Transfer)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I remember when tapping one’s foot was a sign of impatience.


35 posted on 09/05/2007 10:35:11 AM PDT by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, but DemocRATs believe every day is April 15th. - Reagan)
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To: GeneralisimoFranciscoFranco

ROTFLMAO!


36 posted on 09/05/2007 10:36:39 AM PDT by Badeye (You know its a kook site when they ban the word 'kook')
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To: Et in Arcadia Ego

This is NOT a gay issue. It is an issue of entrapment. Someone targeted the Senator, targeted him and planned this event.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a closet queen Senator is....well, a closet queen Senator.

Nobody was ‘entrapped’. He went cruising for gay sex, and got an undercover cop instead.

Its that simple. And as we all now know, this isn’t the first time Leisure Suit Larry Craig went looking for a gay sex partner. Its been going on for DECADES.

You think his actions in 1976 were part of this ‘conspiracy’ at the Frat House as well?

Sheesh.


37 posted on 09/05/2007 10:41:32 AM PDT by Badeye (You know its a kook site when they ban the word 'kook')
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To: Suzy Quzy

Thanks for your cleared-headed writing. Gay sex makes me cringe, but something about this cop made me cringe also. Until other named people come forward and say they had SEX with or was propositioned by Craig, I am leaning toward Craig.

Thats already happened.


38 posted on 09/05/2007 10:42:36 AM PDT by Badeye (You know its a kook site when they ban the word 'kook')
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To: RavenATB
I want my representatives to handle stressful situations well.

This is the point here, listen to the tape of his arrest interview.

Rather than standing up for himself, confronting the issue at hand he weaseled, negotiated, lied, let himself be intimidated and tried to make it go away.

No different really in what happens when a RINO "republican" is confronted by a democrat in the course of the nations business.

How can he be expected to stand up for his constituents, his party, or his supposedly "conservative" values?

Weather he is guilty or not, Good riddance!

39 posted on 09/05/2007 10:54:20 AM PDT by Species8472 (Democrats Hate America)
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To: RavenATB
"But I just can’t stop asking myself “what if this guy is innocent.”

So what if he's innocent? That's the price for keeping law and order. Or are his services in the senate so valuable to the country and the state of Idaho that we can't afford to do without him? No one, is irreplaceable, and scumbag senators (and representatives) like Craig need to remember that.

40 posted on 09/05/2007 10:57:24 AM PDT by semaj (Just shoot the bastards! * Your results may vary. Void where prohibited.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
What do you think would happen if I caught someone molesting my son?

Vote the guy into the Senate? /s

41 posted on 09/05/2007 10:59:27 AM PDT by Lx ((Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.))
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To: GeneralisimoFranciscoFranco
I guess challenging them to a foot-race is out of the question.

You owe me a keyboard!

42 posted on 09/05/2007 11:26:41 AM PDT by doorgunner69
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To: skepsel
in the old 2 story wooden WWII barracks at the reception station at Ft Knox

Those were finally disassembled in the late 90's!

43 posted on 09/05/2007 11:29:08 AM PDT by Theophilus (Nothing can make Americans safer than to stop aborting them.)
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To: Badeye
[Nobody was ‘entrapped’.]

Technically, he was enTAPped.

Badumpump.

44 posted on 09/05/2007 11:50:32 AM PDT by VxH (One if by Land, Two if by Sea, and Three if by Wire Transfer)
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To: Species8472
“Weather he is guilty or not, Good riddance!”

I want representatives to handle stress well, too. But the fact that someone might not do well in a particular situation is no reason to destroy them. How hard would it have been for the officer to press the situation to get a clearcut statement of intent? That’s all I ask...just make sure we’re not prosecuting people for mannerisms that they might not even understand the significance of... Sorry...poor grammar...

45 posted on 09/05/2007 2:03:57 PM PDT by RavenATB
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