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CA: Senate approves bill to 'microstamp' pistol cartridges (Up to Gubinor aRnold now)
ap on Riverside Press Enterprise ^ | 9/6/07 | Don Thompson - ap

Posted on 09/06/2007 6:54:57 PM PDT by NormsRevenge

SACRAMENTO

California would be the first state to require that every semiautomatic handgun cartridge be stamped with an identifying mark if the governor signs a bill that has now cleared both chambers of the Legislature.

The Senate approved the bill Thursday, sending it back to the Assembly for a final vote on amendments. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has not said whether he will sign the bill once it reaches his desk.

The measure would require that, starting in 2010, every semiautomatic handgun sold in California would have to automatically "microstamp" each bullet cartridge in two locations as it is fired. The microscopic stamping would identify the gun's make, model and serial number.

The bill would not affect revolvers, rifles or shotguns, but supporters say semiautomatics are the weapon used in a majority of homicides committed with firearms. Unlike revolvers, semiautomatics eject a cartridge each time they are fired, scattering evidence at a crime scene.

"This is something that would be helpful in identifying the gun that was used in the commission of a crime," said Sen. Jack Scott, D-Altadena, during Thursday's debate. "It's just giving law enforcement one more tool."

The measure cleared the Senate 21-17, with no votes to spare.

Opponents said the technology and the bill itself are dangerously flawed.

Criminals could collect cartridges from firing ranges and strew them at crime scenes, implicating innocent citizens, said Sen. Dennis Hollingsworth, R-Temecula. The firing pin that stamps the cartridge will either have to be so soft that it could be easily erased, or so brittle that it could break, he said.

Sen. Dave Cogdill, R-Modesto, argued that the bill will add "more cost and unnecessary harassment, quite frankly, of law-abiding citizens."

Similar legislation was introduced in Massachusetts and Rhode Island this year, according to the bill's author, Assemblyman Mike Feuer, D-Los Angeles. A federal bill, modeled on California's, is being considered by Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., and Rep. Xavier Becerra, D-Los Angeles.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: banglist; california; callegislation; cartridges; democrats; liberals; microstamp; pistol

1 posted on 09/06/2007 6:55:01 PM PDT by NormsRevenge
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Read AB1471 at http://www.assembly.ca.gov


2 posted on 09/06/2007 6:55:22 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ... Godspeed ... ICE’s toll-free tip hotline—1-866-DHS-2-ICE)
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To: NormsRevenge

Good luck getting the gun companies to go along with that one, guys.


3 posted on 09/06/2007 6:56:07 PM PDT by OCCASparky (Steely-Eyed Killer of the Deep)
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To: NormsRevenge
The firing pin that stamps the cartridge will either have to be so soft that it could be easily erased, or so brittle that it could break, he said.

Explain this please.

4 posted on 09/06/2007 6:59:46 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The only good Mullah is a dead Mullah. The only good Mosque is the one that used to be there.)
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To: NormsRevenge

Any idiot with half a brain could see that this will cause far more problems than solve.


5 posted on 09/06/2007 7:01:31 PM PDT by mowowie
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To: OCCASparky

They don’t want the gun companies to do it. They want no pistols authorized for sale in CA.


6 posted on 09/06/2007 7:05:51 PM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules)
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To: NormsRevenge

If this passes all anyone has to do is change out the firing pin in the pistol.


7 posted on 09/06/2007 7:05:54 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee ("A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.")
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To: mowowie
Oh the elite ignoramus at their best!
Soooo glad to be out of that Socialist pit, regardless of the chances of this legislation to make it: is the idea that there are publik ‘servants’ that think it can that disturbs me and most normal people.
8 posted on 09/06/2007 7:06:09 PM PDT by elpinta (Tagline temporarily out of service)
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To: mowowie
“Any idiot with half a brain could see that this will cause far more problems than solve.”

Remember: It is the smart liberals (those that can feed and clothe themselves and not make a mess on the floor) who have that much brain matter. Most have much less.

9 posted on 09/06/2007 7:07:49 PM PDT by samm1148 (Pennsylvania-They haven't taxed air--yet)
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To: OCCASparky

***Good luck getting the gun companies to go along with that one, guys.***

That is the purpose. They ban guns without really banning guns.


10 posted on 09/06/2007 7:08:03 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Ever see WILLIS SHAW backwards in your rear view mirror? I have!)
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To: NormsRevenge

A few swipes of emery cloth over the “stamp” and all is gone.


11 posted on 09/06/2007 7:09:24 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Ever see WILLIS SHAW backwards in your rear view mirror? I have!)
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To: mowowie
Any idiot with half a brain could see that this will cause far more problems than solve.

Of course it will, that is want they want. Then when it fails as it must, they will say "See, we tried REASONABLE gun laws but they weren't enough. The only solution is to ban all guns"

That of course will not work either, so yet more laws that fail. Repeat ad nausium.

12 posted on 09/06/2007 7:10:11 PM PDT by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: NormsRevenge

So what stops a criminal from going to a gun range to pick up some brass, so he can commit a crime with a revolver and “seed” the crime scene with someone elses empties?


13 posted on 09/06/2007 7:12:53 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: NormsRevenge

So, Kalifornians can buy ammo in another state. Or, reload.
Kalifornian politics strikes me as almost as weird as it gets, for this country.


14 posted on 09/06/2007 7:18:36 PM PDT by Thumper1960 (Unleash the Dogs of War as a Minority, or perish as a party.)
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To: mowowie

What good would it do if the shooter simply picked up his casings? Or ran a file over the stamps? Or removed them altogether?


15 posted on 09/06/2007 7:22:36 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: elpinta

Hey, I know! Let’s just pass a law making it illegal to kill someone except in self defense! Wait, oh, never mind.


16 posted on 09/06/2007 7:24:34 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: NormsRevenge

How much embarrassment do you suppose they’ll have when it is discovered the extent of “police issue” ammo is used in the commission of crimes?


17 posted on 09/06/2007 7:27:05 PM PDT by rockrr (Global warming is to science what Islam is to religion)
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To: NormsRevenge

Only a complete idiot would put an intentional flaw (identifying mark) in an impact tool (firing pin). The only thing that will come out of this is a lawsuit on behalf of someone either killed or maimed firing this accident waiting to happen. A first year engineering student will easily see that the means to this device will cause the metal to fail.


18 posted on 09/06/2007 7:30:37 PM PDT by BuffaloJack (Before the government can give you a dollar it must first take it from another American)
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To: NormsRevenge

“We’re going to have to take one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily — given the political realities — going to be very modest ...
So then we’ll have to start working again to strengthen the law, and then again to strengthen the next law, and maybe again and again.
Right now, though, we’d be satisfied not with half a loaf but with a slice.
Our ultimate goal — total control of handguns in the United States — is going to take time ....
The first problem is to slow down the increasing number of guns being produced and sold in this country.
The second problem is to get handguns registered.
And the final problem is to make the possession of *all* handguns and *all* handgun ammunition — except for the military, policemen, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs, and licensed gun collectors — totally illegal.”
— Pete Shields, Chairman Emeritus, Handgun Control, Inc. ( “The New Yorker”, July 26, 1976 )


19 posted on 09/06/2007 7:32:55 PM PDT by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (Remember the Alamo, Goliad and WACO, It is Time for a new San Jacinto)
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To: NormsRevenge

Then they’ll introduce annual inspections to check that every pistol is still stamping legibly ?!


20 posted on 09/06/2007 7:44:03 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Better yet, replace your firing pin with a custom-made firing pin of the person you want to incriminate.

Talk about set-up jobs.


21 posted on 09/06/2007 7:44:44 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: Brad from Tennessee

It says it will microstamp in “two” places on the cartridge. Will there be two firing pins? Where will the other stamp be?
There will have to be another stamping device either on the breach or side of the cartridge. Or two firing pins. One for the primer and one just to stamp. Then they’ll make it illegal to tamper with any firing pin or stamping device. Like cars it will be illegal to tamper with your own property.


22 posted on 09/06/2007 7:52:14 PM PDT by smoketree (the insanity, the lunacy these days.)
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To: NormsRevenge
The politicians pushing this are supposed to be smart and well informed but this is so absurd I suspect it is only the beginning of a broader ploy that will eventually lead to (DEMOCRAT'S) legislation to increase state restrictions on all types of ammunition. Arnie will have to prove himself on this one. I'm still p.o.ed over the fact he signed the no sale of 50 calibers in CA into law.
23 posted on 09/06/2007 8:07:30 PM PDT by drypowder
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To: traviskicks

“California would be the first state to require that every semiautomatic handgun cartridge be stamped with an identifying mark if the governor signs a bill that has now cleared both chambers of the Legislature.”

Ping.

It’s up to RINO, ARRRRNOLD now.

These people can go to hell.


24 posted on 09/06/2007 8:17:50 PM PDT by 383rr (Those who choose security over liberty deserve neither- GUN CONTROL=SLAVERY)
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To: mowowie
Any idiot with half a brain could see that this will cause far more problems than solve.

That's the idea - to make owning a gun just that much more of a hassle.

25 posted on 09/06/2007 8:49:56 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: OCCASparky
Good luck getting the gun companies to go along with that one, guys.

They'll go along or they won't sell any semi-autos in California. If they had cojones and enough reserves to back it up, they'd sell only revolvers in the land of fruits and nuts. But of course it they all or most all did that, the Federal Justice Department would probably charge them with conspiracy to restrain trade. (As if the very essence of many federal gun control laws isn't restraint of interstate trade.)

26 posted on 09/06/2007 9:01:26 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Brad from Tennessee
If this passes all anyone has to do is change out the firing pin in the pistol.

They'll just make possession of an unmarked firing pin or one not associated with your registered firearm a felony.

27 posted on 09/06/2007 9:04:28 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

Steel cased ammo will probably have to be illegal, too.


28 posted on 09/06/2007 9:06:53 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: smoketree
It says it will microstamp in “two” places on the cartridge. Will there be two firing pins? Where will the other stamp be?

Probably on the extractor. Possibly in the chamber itself. My H&K, granted a rifle, leaves a very distinctive pattern on it's fired brass, due to it's fluted chamber. Just put a little "microstamp" pattern on one of the flutes, and there you go. Or just on the otherwise smooth walls of the chamber.

29 posted on 09/06/2007 9:08:04 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: ltc8k6
Steel cased ammo will probably have to be illegal, too.

Maybe, but the steel in the cases is much softer than that used for firing pins, extractors and the barrel/chamber.

30 posted on 09/06/2007 9:10:09 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

Yeah, they probably added the 2 places requirement to foil firing pin replacement.

If you start imprinting the side of the case, you could have extraction troubles, though.


31 posted on 09/06/2007 9:16:08 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: ltc8k6

I guess a mark on the case would be a problem for reloading that case as well.


32 posted on 09/06/2007 9:31:05 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: NormsRevenge
Its a hoax. A microstamp on a bullet can simply be filed off with a few common tools. The anti-gun nuts know nothing about guns.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

33 posted on 09/06/2007 9:46:11 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: smoketree; El Gato
In addition to the firing pin they may try to put a die on the extractor.

This is going to be a bureaucratic nightmare for the manufacturers as well as the state. If one or both of the parts break the manufacturer, or the dealer, will have to replace the exact stamp for that individual pistol. Or they will provide a new stamp and the pistol will have to be re-registered with the new code.

What about the vast majority of semi-automatic pistols without the stamps?

If this goes into law what the authorities will discover from most recovered shells is that they were fired by stolen pistols.

34 posted on 09/06/2007 9:59:09 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee ("A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.")
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To: Brad from Tennessee

Gangs will probably get custom engraved firing pins to replace the ones with the ID info.

You’ll know for sure it was an MS-13 member who killed your family member because MS-13 will be stamped on the cases where the serial number is supposed to be.


35 posted on 09/06/2007 10:18:26 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: ltc8k6
I can see that happening.

That’s the biggest error in this type of legislation. Gangbangers and convicted felons don’t buy their weapons legally. As somebody posted above, criminals can retrieve spent shells from other sources to drop at the scene and confuse police. I can imagine an underground market for these shells.

36 posted on 09/06/2007 10:32:38 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee ("A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.")
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To: NormsRevenge
This is a legislature with way too much time on their hands. One can see why the Texas model, which meets briefly every other year, is becoming a popular idea in California.

In the mean time, if our liberal, Austrian governor signs the legislation into law, pistol vendors in California will be elated as sales skyrocket over the next three years while consumers rush to beat the micro stamp grand opening in 2010.

Post micro stamp, there with always be wheel guns if you just have to have a compact weapon for neighborhood drive-bys.

37 posted on 09/06/2007 10:40:37 PM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Brad from Tennessee

I’m thinking of getting “kiss my ass” engraved on my firing pins...


38 posted on 09/06/2007 10:43:35 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: ltc8k6

Maybe RKBA ...


39 posted on 09/06/2007 10:45:33 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: 383rr; Abram; akatel; albertp; AlexandriaDuke; Alexander Rubin; Allerious; Allosaurs_r_us; ...
Libertarian ping! To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here.
40 posted on 09/07/2007 7:02:47 AM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: OCCASparky

I smell big profits for gun dealers willing to take a van to CA!!

This will definitely encourage more stolen, black market guns to flood the market in CA.

Wish I owned a gun shop on the Nevada or WA borders!!


41 posted on 09/07/2007 7:13:44 AM PDT by TheKidster (you can only trust government to grow, consolidate power and infringe upon your liberties.)
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To: rockrr

Those guns will be exempt from the law, like many of those who will be carrying them, of course!
DUH


42 posted on 09/07/2007 7:16:07 AM PDT by TheKidster (you can only trust government to grow, consolidate power and infringe upon your liberties.)
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To: NormsRevenge

Stoooopid!!!!


43 posted on 09/07/2007 7:19:10 AM PDT by stevio ((NRA))
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To: Hazcat
Unlike revolvers, semiautomatics eject a cartridge each time they are fired, scattering evidence at a crime scene.

All that evidence lying around and yet they still cant find the guns.

I'm trying to recall where it was that ALL pistols had to be fired and databased before sale. Anyone know how that massive clusterbase worked out???

44 posted on 09/07/2007 10:42:05 AM PDT by Gilbo_3
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To: Gilbo_3
I'm trying to recall where it was that ALL pistols had to be fired and databased before sale. Anyone know how that massive clusterbase worked out???

I believe that was CA and MA.

45 posted on 09/07/2007 10:46:09 AM PDT by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: Brad from Tennessee
"If this goes into law what the authorities will discover from most recovered shells is that they were fired by stolen pistols."

THAT's the scary part.

If you were afraid the new Camry made you a target.............

46 posted on 09/07/2007 10:54:44 AM PDT by norton
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts
Brass is hard, to stamp an imprint into brass would in theory require a very hard metal or alloy, which is typically more brittle. If the alloy or metal which stamps the brass is made softer, it will leave a poor impression, and with repeated firing will wear away until it leaves no impression at all.

Anyway, this sounds pretty stupid to me, if your objective is to "fingerprint" ammunition wouldn't you want to stamp the bullet instead of the casing, or just require the manufacturer to test fire one round and send it to the CA authorities to have the rifling pattern logged into a database.

47 posted on 09/07/2007 1:11:30 PM PDT by amchugh (large and largely disgruntled)
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To: Brad from Tennessee; smoketree; El Gato
Probably need to change the extractor as well.

Firing pins break and get replaced all the time don't they?

48 posted on 09/07/2007 1:14:41 PM PDT by amchugh (large and largely disgruntled)
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To: mylife

The empties won’t have the same powder residue as the bullet unless it’s the same ammo, and maybe same lot.


49 posted on 09/07/2007 1:15:54 PM PDT by amchugh (large and largely disgruntled)
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