Ex-German chancellor warns EU on Russia summit (narrow-minded Polish nationalism)

euobserver ^ | 10.09.2007 | By Philippa Runner

[Grzegorz 246]

German ex-chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has urged EU powers to stop backing Poland on trade and to counter US missile shield plans, or risk another unfriendly summit with Russia next month.

Speaking to press at a book-launch in Moscow on Saturday (8 September), he described Poland's outstanding veto on a new EU-Russia treaty as "narrow-minded nationalism" and called the US missile scheme "politically dangerous."

"For the good of Europe it's sometimes necessary to forget about the interests of individual [member] states," he said. Poland imposed the veto in late 2006 in reaction to a Russian ban on Polish meat exports.

"It is Germany's responsibility...to persuade the United States to abandon these plans," he added, on Washington's push to build two rocket and radar bases in Poland and the Czech republic by 2012.

Russian first deputy prime minister Dmitry Medvedev - also attending the book-launch - echoed the statement, saying it addresses "real worries" that Germany is no longer a "bridge" in east-west relations.

Mr Schroeder led Germany from 1998 to 2005, becoming a personal friend of Russian president Vladimir Putin and later taking a job in the Kremlin's giant energy corporation, Gazprom.

At the last EU-Russia summit in May, current German chancellor Angela Merkel and the European Commission voiced solidarity with Poland and criticised Russia on human rights.

The next summit, to be held in Mafra, Portugal on 26 October, comes amid other complications such as Moscow's opposition to Kosovo independence, the Litvinenko spy row and aggressive posturing by the Russian air force.

EU top diplomat Javier Solana at a European foreign ministers' gathering in Portugal this weekend linked the tensions to the upcoming Russian parliamentary and presidential elections.

"We are in an electoral period in Russia so we don't expect that the next summit will be a revolutionary summit," he said, AFP reports.

But Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt hinted at deeper problems, saying "Everybody agrees that at the moment we don't have a strategic relationship with Russia."

[mainepatsfan]

A German chancellor wanting to appease Russia at Poland’s expense? Sounds familiar for some reason.

[PeterFinn]

How soon the Germans forget. Having Poland between them and the USSR...er....Russia has made them complacent and comfortable.

[Timocrat]

Mr Schroeder led Germany from 1998 to 2005, becoming a personal friend of Russian president Vladimir Putin and later taking a job in the Kremlin's giant energy corporation, Gazprom.

Just representing his client.

[30 Govt.]

Exactly, back to the future for Russia and Germany. Neither country has given up their old visions of empire.

The Germans want to take over Europe through their industrial and financial might.

The Russians are less subtle. They want to “gather the Russian lands” by overt military hostility toward any small state unfortunate enough to share a border with them.

You have to love the Poles. They have been the standard bearers of Western Civilization and humanity for centuries.

[VeniVidiVici]

Gerhardt, who?

EU should do themselves a favor and boycott the next meeting. Tell Putin where to shove those Bears.

[Grzegorz 246]

Eastern European ping list

---

FRmail me to be added or removed from this Eastern European ping list

[WoofDog123]

Given that Schroeder works for Gazprom IIRC, this is not surprising.

[Wuli]

Schroeder is now a paid employee or consultant with Gazprom - Russia’s (Putin’s) nationalized energy conglomerate. Maybe Putin threatened to take Schroeder’s cushy job away from him if he didn’t participate in Putin’s public relations offensive.

The German people should be ashamed of their former leader and, due to the source of their shame - his kowtowing to Putin - see his objections to the U.S. invasion of Iraq in a different light (that opposition was intended to serve Russian economic interests, of which Germany was to receive better energy deals from Gazprom). Schroeder lost his political job but got onto Putin’s payroll anyway. And who is surprised????

[Red6]

Truth is stranger than fiction-

Who in Germany is asking the hard questions of why Schroeder immediately jumped into a senior executive position at the Russian (state owned) Gazprom. Could it have something to do him personally overseeing and pushing gas deals through and bypassing the entire political process altogether while he was still in office? Could it have something to do with this “multilateral” approach by pushing through these deals in a vacuum of what Poland the Czech Republic and others might want, despite the fact that they are affected by these decisions?

The Germans are embarrassing. This guy should literally be hung for treason (Landesverrat). Instead he’s dispensing advice, signing books, and living in his dacha (paid for by the Russian state) with the Germans just thinking this is normal.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

IIRC, Schroeder works for Russian oil and gas interests.

[CharlesThe Hammer]

It’s always rich to hear Euro-statists, particularly Germans, rave on about “narrow-minded nationalism”. Schroeder’s blatant shilling for the Putin kleptocracy is farce.

[L,TOWM]

Sounds more like whoring with his clothes on — you know, the despicable, disreputable kind of whoring.

[ozzymandus]

Well, the Germans voted him out of office, and he went to work as a mouthpiece for Putin, so it’s not too surprising he’s shilling for Russia now. As for the Germans being embarrassing, we have Carter and Clinton to embarrass us.

[LachlanMinnesota]

Marketing at its best...GAsprom, apply directly to the forhead, Gasprom, apply directly to the forehead, Gasprom, apply directly to the forehead...Gasprom, I hate your product, but I hate your commercials...

[Red6]

The difference is that many in the US call Carter and Clinton out for what they are, while the Germans largely sympathize with the likes of a Schroeder and even most self proclaimed German conservatives will defend their actions. They love those guys; Germany is full of creeps like Lafontaine, Gysi, Fischer, Tritin.......

Carter might go to Venezuela and Clinton to the Middle East to give speeches, but their statements are measured, and the fact that this outrages the American public is a statement. Where are the screams within Germany denouncing Schroeder as within the US in regards to Clinton and Carter? Clinton visiting the Middle East and skirting the topic of Iraq saying it more or less was a bad idea, created a landslide of negative public press.

There is a difference. The Germans especially have no national identity and they largely sympathize with the views of a Schroeder anyway. Furthermore, they’re spineless and even if they know the truth lack the balls and resolve to take action for the most part. If Schroeder personally abused his powers to ensure Gazprom be rewarded with certain deals for his personal gain, that’s an abuse of his powers, but no one is “really” raising the question and pushing the issue. They don’t want to. Who in German politics right now is accusing him of treason? Who is “really” pushing for an investigation of this affair? It’s very typical of the Germans.

“Well, the Germans voted him out of office” BARELY.

[pierrem15]

Schroeder: paid socket-puppet for the Kremlin. How many other German politicians & businessmen have been paid off or blackmailed by Putin?

Sounds a lot like Peter the Great's secret payments to the Saxon kings of Poland, with the EU playing the role of the old Polish republic.

[vahet pole]

“For the good of Europe it’s sometimes necessary to forget about the interests of individual [member] states,” he said.

For the good of Europe it’s sometimes necessary to forget about the interests of some individuals.

[antiRepublicrat]

German ex-chancellor Gerhard Schroeder

You can forget seeing any rational thought after that intro. Dude is an anti-freedom liar and cheat. During his first reelection there were worries about the budget and he said everything's fine and no taxes will need to be raised -- then suddenly hundreds of millions of dollars of deficit were discovered right after the election. Honest, we didn't know, we just found out.

So everybody complained and a very popular song called the Tax Song came out making fun of him, portraying him as greedy, wanting everybody's money while living high off the hog himself. Then he talked about suing the guy who wrote the song.

Part of the song went like "You can't fire me, that's what's cool about democracy." Guess what Schrott, the German people did fire your ass, now shut up and disappear.

[Verdelet]

I actually read that new Schroeders employer (from Gazprom outsourcing company) is Matt V.(something, forgot his name, got to search for it once again, it was in one of these years Wprost aricles) is an ex-Stasi officer.

Well now, commie minds think alike?

[ken21]

he’s ex-chancellor.

[Atlantic Bridge]

You should stop whining like a sissy. It does not fit for someone who claims being a “real” man.

Of course there was massive critisism on Schroeder because of the Gazprom affair.

Just read: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,406792,00.html (Sorry in German and from the Spiegel)

Nevertheless it is indeed true that Schroeder has still many supporters in Germany although his turn as a chancellor was for sure not that successful.

Why?

Because Schroeder showed national identity and kept Germany out of a war in Iraq that was not wanted by the German people. He was the first to emancipate Germany out of its status as a occupied country that subordinates itself under the will of the victorious western forces of the second world war. After the Brits (the French de facto never counted) lost their importance already in the early 50ties, this means soley America. While the Russian occupation ended in 1990 our obedience to America continued over the last years of the Kohl reign. I am well aware that such is something Americans do not want to hear, but it delineates the facts. The “old” Bundesrepublik before Schroeder was a vassal state unable of its own fundamental decisions.

This changed with Schroeder. Love it or hate it.

Schroeder was a disaster in every way if we talk about economics, defense politics, his relationship with Poland, Gasprom, Putin etc. etc. etc. But... ...the German public has not forgotten that he was the first that transfered their will into practical foreign politics. De facto with him the bloddy legacy of the second world war found its final end. It is over now and we are free to do whatever we want.

[Kozak]

Still Putins butt boy I see.

[Kozak]

It is over now and we are free to do whatever we want.

Great. So all our troops can leave.

Don't call when you need our help this time, we won't answer. When can we expect the check for the 50 years we kept you from being forced to learn Russian?

[MarMema]

TRANSLATION - we suck russian eggs and those darn poles won't play.

Gazprom to Build German Power Plant

Gazprom plans to build a power station in Germany, expanding further into the electricity market with one of its first major projects outside Russia.

Gazprom said Friday that it planned to supply industrial customers and to trade power on Europe's largest power market with the 400 million euro ($541.8 million) gas-fired power plant that it seeks to build in the east German town of Eisenhuttenstadt.

Gazprom plans to build the 800-megawatt power station together with Soteg, Luxembourg's main power supplier, in which the state of Luxembourg, steelmaker Arcelor Mittal and E.ON, Germany's largest utility, each hold about 20 percent.

Both parties, which each hold half of the project, signed a memorandum of understanding in which they agreed to form a joint venture for the project, Gazprom said.

They plan to produce power with the plant from 2010 and have not yet received approval to build the station, a spokesman for Gazprom in London said.

The move comes as Gazprom seeks to expand outside Russia and the gas business, while the German government, as well as the European Union, seek to get more companies to compete on the region's power market.

In Europe, Gazprom is involved in projects such as a Latvian utility and power trading in France as well as Germany, and it has a power-for-natural-gas agreement with the Deeside power station in Britain.

Soteg plans to supply power to industrial customers and distributors in Luxembourg with its share of the power, it said in a separate statement.

Gazprom has been buying up electricty assets from UES at home.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Great. So all our troops can leave.

Personally I do not see any bigger problem for us if your troops would leave. Recently (I do not have actual numbers) there were only roundabout 25.000 GIs (due to the war in Iraq) left. They are not decisive for the security of Germany anymore. That was of course different during the cold war, when the US had 350.000 soldiers or more on our soil.

Most of us Germans were always well aware that the US "nuclear umbrella" was not really leakproof because a substitute nuclear war between the US and Russia on the soil of the not nuclear armed European nations (Poland, east- and west Germany) was much more likely than the big doomsday. This risk was the price we had to pay as a occupied nation of course and it is understandable from the American point of view. Even today I would not give too much into nuclear assurances of countries that are 5 or 6 thousand kilometres away. Therefore I have much more faith into the French "Force de Frappe", since the French (in sharp difference to the US) would be directly involved into the effects of a nuclear attack on Germany.

Do not get me wrong. I am very thankful for the American deployment between 1945 and 1990. It gave us Germans the possibility to bring up a relatively free system and wealth. No question about that. Nevertheless today those troops do not have a function in our direct defense anymore since they are part of American actions and missions we can and want not to control. Therefore (small) parts our own soil are de facto not under our own sovereignty. I.e. the Ramstein base was used for millitary action against Iraq although the vast majority of our gouvernment and our people were completely against it. Surely we would have been able to stop that but in this case the trans-atlantic relationship (NATO etc. etc. etc.) would have been dust. This was the reason why we tolerated it (other nations like Turkey refused themselves).

Maybe you understand that American deployments are not always unproblematic for the host countries. If you want to relocate your troops - just go ahead.

P.S.

To answer a question in advance: There would be of course some whining from a few locals in the case of a relocation because they lack the orders of the US forces then. In the big scale this does not play any role for such a big economical block like Germany. The American deployment is de facto economically relevant to a few towns and villages but not to Germany as a whole.

[Kozak]

Therefore I have much more faith into the French "Force de Frappe", since the French (in sharp difference to the US) would be directly involved into the effects of a nuclear attack on Germany.

Enjoy being France's bitch.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Enjoy being France's bitch.

BuHuHaHa!

At least it is up to the bitch to choose the pimp. But seriously - we Germans only will be independent from others if we

1. built our own nukes

2. get our own nukes over a closer European defense policy.

During the sixties there were definitly efforts among German conservatives to build up our own nuclear force. As a occupied country we had to trade off these plans those days. In the moment there is no strategical need for our own German nukes. Nevertheless this could change quite fast. If will be a broad proliferation (Iran, North Korea, former Soviet republics, ME countries) we might be forced to reawake those old plans. From the technical side it should take us a few days or at the utmost a few weeks due to our abilities and skills. Germny is not Iraq or Iran. We have plenty of PU 239 (i.e. in the former FRP-plant in Karlsruhe). :)

P.S. In other parts of this world - where they have indeed a strategic need for nukes (i.e. Japan) this is not different. I am quite sure that the Japanese have a few nukes in their cupboards due to the North Korean threat. If the Taiwanese are smart they will look for something suitable too. It is for sure good to have Uncle Sam on ones side, but it is always better to be able to survive on your own. This is in the well understood self-interest of the US. Due to your immense trade and budget deficit you can be happy not to be forced to invest into the defense of other befriended nations.

[Red6]

He didn’t transfer their will, he sold them a lie.

The final end wasn’t of his doing; it came during the **two plus four agreement** (You might want to read up on it) in 1990, years before he was even in office and before he spoke of some “Deutscher Weg,” whatever that may mean.

No action against Schroeder was taken. Besides bla bla bla, no action. Get it? He’s a free man who probably engaged in activity that is treasonous in the most literal meaning of the word. Your criticism of Schroeder is as worthless as your “Uneingeschraenkte Solidaritaet.”

A politician serves both to follow the will of the people AND to steer them into the right direction. Democracy is a two way road. As I attempted to explain in vain to you, Schmidt was a good example. Even in the US we have such examples with Reagan or Bush today. When Bush began to rekindle missile defense even before 911 he encountered huge opposition and it wasn’t very popular, yet more and more over time the reality of its necessity are becoming obvious and today less and less are screaming about how bad it is. BTW what was Schroeder’s position on missile defense pre 911 when it was unpopular? Schroeder never lead Germany until close to the end of his reign when he did something that actually made some economic sense with Hartz. Up until that point all he did was promise people hedonism, chasing opinion polls, siding on popular opinion and moods on every issue and topic. As aforementioned, after 911 he spoke of “Uneingeschraenkte Solidaritaet” when it was popular to support the US; within three years he was making speeches that basically stated that there is no real Islamic threat. Think about that one. Schroeder was simple to understand; say anything you must to get reelected, even if this means turning 180 degrees on issues. Play with any issues; sacrifice any person, institution, treaty or relationship; even if they are not yours. Avoid anything that is politically damaging. So he politicized the Iraq war, something Germany was not asked to participate in nor did anything for since 1991, a burden the US and other allies have been carrying for over a decade. He allowed the Bad Ailbling situation to spiral out of control in the media and took no corrective actions.......... What a man.

Tell me something new. We knew what he was doing politically the day he opened his mouth a spoke of “Der Deutsche Weg” and fools like you ran after him. The idea was to pander to the left and right at the same time, something politically possible.

The left anti-war, anti-American agenda in Germany was pleased because he went against the war.

The right felt like “Jetzt sind wir wieder jemand” because he supposedly stood up against the US, that’s why he coined the phrase “Der Deutsche Weg,” something your still to this day highly impressed with.

You’re a pawn and were played in a political chess game intended to win an election in 2002. People like you rationalized Schroeder behavior every step of the way because you wanted to buy this lie. As I told you before, weakness was sold as strength, decadence as morals, and apathy as concern.

Schroeder did not bring you independence, that like your freedom was handed to you on a silver platter.

[Red6]

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwei-plus-Vier-Vertrag

Kohl, who didn’t speak of some “Deutscher Weg” was one of the key players of German sovereignty and unification. Schroeder simply spoke some words that appealed to some like you.

[Red6]

It is ironic that people like you credit German sovereignty with Schroeder and see Kohl who personally was directly and intensely involved with the negotiations and agreements surrounding German sovereignty and unification as some stooge. Then again, that’s to be expected from people like you who probably see Merkel as an "Arschkriecher" as well.

[Tailgunner Joe]

Postulating that a “democratic process” is ongoing in Russia, Schroeder urged “Germany and Europe to support this internal process without conditions or reservations.” Whether he knew it or not, Russian authorities were on that same day (Interfax, September 8) launching events to mark the 130th anniversary of the birth of Felix Dzerzhinsky... - LINK

[RobbyS]

Schroeder was a communist, more or less like Willy Brandt, sub rosa.

[Red6]

You heard what Putin did yesterday, right?

(As to the upcoming elections and political trends in Russia)

Putin will come to power again in the future. The Russian Constitution forbids more than two consecutive terms. However, after a four year break Putin can assume power again. 2 terms -sit out- 2 terms. He can’t outright suspend their Constitution, that would cause a backlash internal and external to Russia, but de facto their Constitution is dead; kangaroo courts that toe the government’s agenda, the KGB is running amok, the press is practically under state control, all vital national assets are government owned more or less, and political power is more centralized than ever, eminating form a single person.

The idea is that Putin’s boy in the next elections will win, yet he controls him from the background. His boy will assume power with the unspoken knowledge that he’s only keeping the seat warm for four years. He’s popular enough to win the elections, smart enough to run the country, but weak enough to be controlled, surrounded and propped up by the Putin’s money and henchmen.

Putin is an outright dictator at this point. In the past (Cold War), you had a premier that was controlled by a political establishment. Crazy thought that a former German Chancellor is sitting on his side and was playing ball with him even while in office, or that Western media keeps referring to him as “President” Putin. Western media assigns the title “President” even to Ahmadinejad, Saddam…… Do they understand that words have meaning, or are they simply about sounding sophisticated and intellectual in a vacuum of reality?

Do you know what Putin years ago wrote his dissertation on? Think About where Russia is heading today and what he wrote this paper on! Hitler wrote “Mein Kampf,” outlining his motivations, goals etc. Later the Germans shrugged their shoulders and said they had no idea. Putin has already told us what his goals are, but few want to see it. The Germans are so happy that the Cold War is over they are refusing to see what the trend for the last years has been. The former KGB operator in East Berlin has come a long way, climbing to assume complete power of Russia, and the thought that the Germans as usual stick their head in the sand is so incredibly disappointing, yet predictable.

[Red6]

Good link - Well written and thought out analysis.

The problem is that the “inter-locking” that the German socialists and some even in conservative circles were dreaming of is in reality a “dependence” on Russian energy that can’t be turned off once set in place. At that point the Russians will be able to pressure and manipulate the Germans via energy, something they have shown a willingness to do, may that be in the Republic of Georgia, Ukraine.........

Russia and Germany are neither culturally, politically or even economically aligned. Russia and Germany stand on opposite sides of the fence, despite what many German socialists want to believe. To idiots like Atlantic Bridge, a typical German national-socialist, the Russians were seen as some option other than the US. I’m sure he was one to quickly jump on this bandwagon years ago. The Germans even pre-1989 played the game of having one foot in the boat with the French and the other with the US (That makes sense because the French are closely aligned in interests and culture), and while the US was the big boy on the block, the idea was that if relations really fell apart they could always go ride with the French. Post Cold War (If you want to claim it ever really ended), many in Germany saw Russia as an alternative to the US. The Germans began joint defense projects with the Russians, which *all* have failed. The Germans saw Russia as a huge market and economic opportunity, which some have realized isn’t there today, while others saw firms being nationalized etc…… However, most importantly, even the political aspects are slowly crumbling. Russian intelligence activities in Europe, their pressuring of other states through energy…….. taints the picture so sought by some.

Russia has a lot of influence in Europe because of proximity, natural resources, the willingness to be brutal and ruthless when necessary, and there are some within Europe who buy into the Socialist dogma or in the former East block like the DDR that might even have direct ties to Russia because of their positions and affiliations in the past. However, what some Germans do not want to accept, at least in the past, is that their interests collide and they are historically and culturally non-bonded; may that be Human rights, a democratic process, Russian Slavic culture, language, orthodox church, or political and security interests regarding Iran, Israel, Belarus, the Balkans……… there is little common ground. Think about that for a second. While NATO was bombing in the Balkans, in a campaign the Germans largely were the political architects of, they were more or less standing on opposite sides of the Russians. Russia was backing Serbia and the Germans the Croats, as well as trying to stop Serb military actions since that was the primary cause of the refugee issues they were experiencing from Bosnia etc.

[Red6]

While you talk about your ueber-intelektualism because you once again did nothing yet you live as part of a Western free trading secure world; realize that 2/3rds of this planet is ruled by warlords, dictators, despot regimes, or religious fundamentalists; people who don’t necessarily respect a Constitution.

The clash between Islam and the Western world was preprogrammed :

• Freedom of religion: Surah 4:89 “They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.”

• Freedom from religion: Surah 2:193 “And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

• Freedom of Speech: Surah 9:12 “But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.”

• Freedom to question Islam: Surah 5:102 “A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.”

• Women’s rights: Surah 4:34 “Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them (word used in Arabic means to use a whip). Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.”

• Racial Equality: Surah 3:106-107 “On the Day when (some) faces will be whitened and (some) faces will be blackened; and as for those whose faces have been blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (Profession of) belief? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved. And as for those whose faces have been whitened, in the mercy of Allah they dwell for ever.”

• The Quran teaches the superiority of Muslims over all peoples, Surah 3:110 “Ye (Muslims) are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind.”, Surah 8:55 “Lo! The worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe” (non-Muslims are worse than animals).

It does not matter what you think. It does not matter that you personally think you’re above religion, throw away your Christian heritage and call yourself cultured because of this. The fact is that the North Africa, the Middle East to include Persia, Afghanistan and parts of Asia such as Indonesia are societies largely organized around Islam. The fact that Sharia law rules in most of these nations is alone proof of this fact. The problem is that people like you think that if you personally are open minded, secular, appeasing, and generally avoid confrontation with this ideology that this threat will not bother you. That reasoning is fundamentally flawed. You can be as open minded as you wish, to a Jihadist you are either a person of the book (Dhimmi- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi ) or if you’re like most Germans and secular you’re not even a person of the book, and I think we all know what the Quran says to do with people it calls infidels.

You see, what you don’t realize with your great German intellectual mind, is that there is a reason why Van Gogh was murdered, why the Danes were threatened after a Mohamed cartoon, and why even in your secular Germany you have had several attempted terrorist acts over the last years. Read Surah 9:12 again. There is a reason why in some parts of Germany your German mother would get a tomato thrown at her if she isn’t veiled. Unless you can accept a world with no freedom of religion, no freedom of speech, the oppression of women, racial inferiority of Caucasians, and the superiority of Muslims, your ignoring of this problem is not based on some intellectual insight, but rather “Heuchelei.”

Let me explain another concept to you, Jihad.

• The Religion of Islam should prevail over all religions, Surah 48:28-29 “He it is who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness. Mohammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers…”

• Fight (katal) until all people become Muslim, Surah 8:39 “And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.”

• Warfare is ordained for Muslims, Surah 2:216 “Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.” Surah 8:67, “It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.”

Islam teaches to its followers to either convert or kill those refusing to convert- that simple. When you only have a small fraction of the population that is Muslim you tend to not have any issues. However, as this population grows, so do their demands on the host nation to bow to their cultural standards and norms, even your so loved Turks largely fall into this category.

• Surah 9:29, “Fight those who… believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, …nor acknowledge the religion of truth (Islam), until they pay tribute taxes with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.”

• Surah 9:5, also 2:193, “Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them beleaguer them and lie in ambush for them in every stratagem (of war).”

• Surah 47:4, “Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them)”

• Sahih Al Bukari Vol 1 Number 24: Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered by (Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and that Mohammad is his (Allah’s) Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that they save their lives and property from me.”

• Sahih Al-Bukhari, Hadith No. 2926: “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘The Hour will not be established until you fight against the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him”

No Western government is legitimate in the eyes of a Muslim. Not one single one. You live in a world of laws that stem from an enlightenment, a concept of freedom, some sort of basic human right, even something like the most basic concept you instil in your children, such as fairness is not a part of Muslim culture. They do not see Western governments as ligitimate since our laws don't reflect Islamic Sharia law, since our state orgaization excludes largely those elements which in the Islamic world organize the state all together. There is no concept of a seperation of church and state in the Muslim mind.

• Do not obey the unbeliever, Surah 25:52, “So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavor.”

• Do not obey the unbeliever, Surah 26:151, “And obey not the command of the prodigal,”

• Do not obey the unbeliever, Surah 33:1, “O Prophet! Fear Allah, and hearken not to the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites: verily Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.”

• Do not obey the unbeliever, Surah 76:24, “So submit patiently to thy Lord's command, and obey not of them any guilty one or disbeliever.”

It is acceptable to lie, and when in a minority Jihad is practiced silently. Jihad is not always by the sword, but it is openly stated as one of the two houses. Basically what you have is a situation where the sword is used when it can achieve the results, but when in the minority or inferior position, the Jihad is silent.

• Muslims are not bound by their oaths, Surah 66:2, “Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.”

• Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in danger, Surah 16:106, “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.”

Compellation of quotes: (Steve Hereford PhD., Christian Understanding of Islam)

Please fact-check every or any one of the bullets. This is just like the Cold War, even though you’ll deny that in order to save face and feel better about yourself. This is a struggle between Western civilization and Islam just like in the Cold War where it was a struggle between Western free civilization and Communism. Back then there were many “Heuchler” saying similar stuff as you are today as well. One thing is for sure however, after you get hit, and you will in time, you’ll have no hesitation and no recollection of your own words. So what sort of Kafir are you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar

You see, people like you say “I don’t care about all that stuff, I’m not religious. Don’t bother quoting some passages from the Quran since it’s irrelevant for me.” The guy wanting to cut your throat does care, and that should concern you. Their world is organized around Islam. From Madras’s that educate children to the Imam preaching, the Mufti who runs their courts, or an Ayatollah and Revolutionary Islamic counsel that runs an entire country; Islamic society has at its core Islam as the primary organizing agent. For example, Mufti: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mufti

Long before 911 the West was on a collision course with Islam, but this one event brought reality to the forefront of the American consciousness. The German is not more liked by the jihadist or some Ayatollah. Indeed German life and culture is even more secular than that of Americans. You’re simply playing the game of wanting to sit on the sidelines and do nothing while others carry your weight. Furthermore, you’re a lesser and lower tier target simply because the radical elements out there see you as less significant, at least for now. Don’t rationalize your amoral schmarotzer behavior with Schadenfreude. It doesn’t make you intellectual, moral, or anything else other than a heuchler.

[Atlantic Bridge]

There is a reason why in some parts of Germany your German mother would get a tomato thrown at her if she isn’t veiled.

Where are those places? In a mosque? Besides - even your mother has a good chance to be raped if she walks through the wrong parts of L.A. in the heroic U.S.A.. Do you remember the LA riots of 1992? Do you remember the outbreak of massive violence in your country? All nations have their problem with social underdogs and races that are not really accepted by the upper class.

It is indeed interesting what would happen if Muslims (whose part in our population is quite stable since the mid-80ties) would start fighting for their "way of life" in large scale within Germany. The reaction on suche behaviour of the German people is unpredictable. First of all you should not forget that you are talking about a minority of 3.7% of the German population. Furthermore it is interesting that the fertillity of Turkish women i.e. does not differ that much from their German sisters.

Turkey: 1.89 children born/woman (2007 est.)

Germany: 1.4 children born/woman (2007 est.)

Source: "Your" CIA-factbook

De facto the Turkish part on the German population is quite stable since the mid 80ties. A example (good information about this issue is rare due to idiotic political correctness):

http://www.berlin.de/imperia/md/content/bamitte/publikationen/ges/gs_pl_gb_2004_05.pdf (Scroll and look for "Abb. 4)

Nevertheless all sources that you can get will tell you the same: There is no increase of Turks in Germany since 25 years. Beside of that we have to deal with the fact that most Turks are far away from any extremes. They want to earn money and they have to fight with their girls who adopt German behavior in a breathtaking manner. There is no time left for Jihad or other religious masturbations. Hehe! Did you know that 99% of the sparse Turkish immigration to Germany consists of virgins from Anatolia since daughters of German Turks usually lack this attribute and are rebellious towards their grooms. Turkish men who live in Germany prefer adjusted housewifes that wear a headscarf but they have basic problems to find them. Since sex sells (not every German Turk can afford to buy a virgin from Anatolia) and their women push through their point of view itself they have to deal now with a form of Islam that was steeped in honey.

Of course you can state the Koran or the Hadiths, but they do not meet the reality of German Turks (which are the by far biggest fraction of German muslims).

Our "religious" problem with Turks has a social source. Young guys from Turkey lack the abillities to integrate into the German school system because Turkish families fail tu support their kids the way German schools are used to. Therefore they lack all chances on success. To compensate they play their "traditional" role. De facto they are the loosers of the millenium. If you take the time and analyse i.e. the "PISA" study you will find out that we have at first a problem with education among immigrants who came to Germany:

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub117C535CDF414415BB243B181B8B60AE/Doc~E042AD05979A94E0DB7C45E51BA8E11C3~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

Seriously - can you tell me where the able "soldiers" of a "islamic revolution" in Germany should come from? How can they turn us into infidels? How can they rule Germany? Those dumb idiots that are unable to get a "Hauptschulabschluss".

If they would start to do anything that is really hurting we probably would round the terrorists up and kill them. Germany still has a police that is able to bite - espechially if we talk about Turks or other minorities. A islamic insurrection against christian Germans would be answered with bullets and death. There is for sure a fundamental difference to helping actions for other nations or other BS like Munich'72.Recently I had to permit a new big police station (in the town I work for since a year) and I can tell you that our policemen are able to deal with quite a force. They have the equipment and the will. If they get free hand they can toast for sure more mosques like you guys in Iraq.

Furthermore the Islam as a religion has practically no attraction to native Germans. Although there are roundabout 3.000.000 muslims in Germany, only 4.000 Germans converted last year. This is really unimpressive if you compare the numbers. Germans are obviously more interested into sex n'drugs n'rock n'roll. Koran studies are no thrill to us. Those who converted are usually dangerous (i.e. the terrorists that were caught recently were converts), but since they are only a few they are practically irrelevant.

There is some internal danger in Germany through terrorists - no doubt about that. Nevertheless there is for sure no danger of a overthrow into a islamic country. All this idiotic BS about Eurarabia is funny propaganda of some country bumpkins. The thing is that a guy who live in Germany that long either knows better or is a fanatic moron with blinders. Do not make a idiot of yourselves. This is boring.

You said: No Western government is legitimate in the eyes of a Muslim. Not one single one. You live in a world of laws that stem from an enlightenment, a concept of freedom, some sort of basic human right, even something like the most basic concept you instil in your children, such as fairness is not a part of Muslim culture. They do not see Western governments as ligitimate since our laws don't reflect Islamic Sharia law, since our state orgaization excludes largely those elements which in the Islamic world organize the state all together. There is no concept of a seperation of church and state in the Muslim mind.

So what is your solution? Kill all muslims? Burn them with a global termonuclear war?. Start a new Holocaust?

Is Irak, a country that was liberated by the US a western style democracy? Is Afghanistan, a country that was liberated by the US a western style democracy? The “nation building” if we orientate ourselves on existing “western style democracies” in that area was not very successfull so far. All pre-war estimations about the learning aptitude of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan were wrong and what should have turned out as a example of freedom is a death-trap of collective cretinism in the meantime.

There are better examples than the countries you helped recently: We should be happy that the Turks found a way to canalize their weird religion into privacy trough a quite secular system. It is for sure not perfect and far from our standarts, but Turkey provides a quite free platform to live in the ME. Together with Israel it is de facto the only place there where the individual has some rights. Therefore I think Turkey could be the example for other muslim nations. I doubt that we westerners will overcome this false religion. Arabs, Persians and Turks will continue to believe into their weird and funny Mohammad or whatever is his name. Therefore we have to look for secular gouvernment systems in the ME we can deal with. It is indeed possible to deal with Turkey but it is de facto impossible to deal with theocratic Irak or Afghanistan in the long turn. Not to speak about Iran, Syria, Pakistan etc. etc. pp.

This is something that should be understood soon.

Post Scriptum Euroarabicum:

I do not care about headscarfs or other muslum BS as long as it happens in privacy.

[Atlantic Bridge]

You’re simply playing the game of wanting to sit on the sidelines and do nothing while others carry your weight.

The problem is that you are not carrying our weight but you are starting things you are unable to control. It does not make any sense for us to join into a orgy of idiocy and cretinism. If you do what you have done you need concepts and a suitable strategy. It is obvious that you neither have one or the other. Even such a sunshine hero like you probably found out that nobody speaks of a victory anymore but of problems and "exit-strategies". Simply ask the General Staff of the Brits and you get clear announcements.

We can shorten this up: "exit-strategies" = surrender

ueber-intelektualism

You should understand that I love my country more than all others (this includes yours) and that I want to protect it from senseless damage. Espechially if the damage is only caused by "Kadavergehorsam" (you understand the word) to a befriended nation (in this case the US). The only reason to help you would have been the elimination of Saddam Hussein. The death of this dictator was a noble goal. Everything else was obviously dumb BS (WMDs, democracy, freedom, justice, oil, etc. etc. etc.) since the puppet regime you installed stands for sharia, islamism and repression. Your comrades died and fought for the proper installation of islamic jurisdiction. Congratulations! Allah is merciful with idiots like you.

Therefore my point of view has has nothing to do with national socialism, ueber-intellektualism or being a Heuchler. It has to do with positive nationalism in the truest sense.

[Red6]

• Sure, compare an ideological movement of millions, with national routes in several Middle Eastern states to street criminals, very “intellectual.” Wow- you must have the extra super German education.

• Pretend as if a US large-scale reduction in forces in Iraq is a sign of failure; assumption being that the intent was to stay? Or that it’s failure because the Ba’athists are still or will again rise to power? Maybe it’s failure because the US forces will eventually withdraw and leave a Constitutional Republic behind?

Germany, another nation liberated from oppression and totalitarianism also does not look like the US 100%, yet you personally would probably not call it a failure like I would. Just as you see Iraq as a failure, I see your Germany with it’s propensity towards socialism, centralization, regimented society, anti-Semitism to this day as indicators of a failed nation building project. I would claim the Germans didn’t learn too much from their past and today are nothing more than a moocher and worthless may that be as a nation backing the collective Western interests of all free states, Western Judeo-Christian values, or the cause of freedom. Your Germans, the Volk that said “Nie Wieder,” 50 years later in the Balkans let a little genocide occur 120 Km from its Southern boarder. You tried hard to look the other way and it wasn’t until 250,000 Bosnian refugees sat in your country that you began to care, and found a greater moral cause for intervention. An Intervention which you were incapable of executing, and engaged NATO on, only to deny the US seven years later reference Iraq since it was politically advantageous for someone. People like you justify this, and the true reason is because, “you love your Germany,” but please continue to lecture us about blind followers. What you engage is is projection –

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Iraq will most definitely have an Arabic and Islamic influence in its “Republic.” Nonetheless, the threat emanating from Iraq to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia is gone, the WMD and long range missile programs are gone, the Ba’athists are gone from power with Saddam and his senior officers either in prison or dead, a Republic empowered by a Constitution is in place. To most former DDR Volk your FRG was a puppet government as well. It is convenient for you to paint it this way now, and since you’ve never been intellectually honest in any of your discussions, since you’re a socialist and have no true understanding or respect for freedom, this argument is to be expected. Ignore Chechnya, a dictator in Belarus propped by Russia, Republic of Georgia, Ukraine, threats to the West….. after all, your Schroeder is now a big man in Russia which you’ve been told is your new buddy (We’ll see how long you hold up that charade), now that’s something you can be proud of as a German!

People like you embarrass me on a very personal level since I’m of German heritage. I am at a point where I’m ashamed of what Germany is and what it represents. I have more respect for a culture and nation such as the Israeli’s than for my own heritage.

My wife is a German teacher here in Plano Texas, maybe you can explain to her how she should tell her kids why Germany, a nation sucking of the teat of a global free economy (Something you even brag about with your exports), a nation under the protection of NATO for 50 years in the face of Soviet aggression, someone who called on NATO to fix THEIR Balkan problems, after 911 did as little as possible to come to aide the US?
What you need to do is take a good look at some of that anti-Jewish Nazi propaganda of years past and ask yourself who that better portrays. The guy with the big crooked nose, hunched back, making a Euro in Iran today isn’t the US, is it? No worries, Putin probably thinks you’re doing a bang up job!

[Atlantic Bridge]

Germany, another nation liberated from oppression and totalitarianism also does not look like the US 100%, yet you personally would probably not call it a failure like I would.

Democracy is a relative concept. You might have heard about the communist idea of "democratic centralism" which has absolutely nothing to do with democracy as I and probably you understand it. Such is the same with democracy in Germany. We have rather a system with the possibility of public affirmation in a 4-year turn than a system that transforms the will of its people. This has to do with the fact that in Germany relevant political activity is only possible within the framework of a political party. Since all relevant political parties have more or less the same program (SPD, CDU, FDP, Gruene) it is impossible to move something fundamental. It is nothing new that i.e. a party which is as conservative as the American Republicans does not exist because its existance is absolutely not wanted by the decisive political class in Germany. The German "conservatives" of the CSU are de facto social democrats. If you express conservative thinking there they call you either a nazi (if you are openly for the right to own weapons i.e.) or a "unsocial extremist" (if you are fundamentally against subsidies i.e.). A person like me has practically no chance to express its way of thinking if it does not want to end in a booby hatch. Therefore I gave up working in political organisations a long time ago since it is simply senseless. The "representative" German democracy is de facto a mild social democratic regime. All relevant decisions are made by the representatives. We have a democracy in Germany of course, but it was designed to keep away its people from all relevant decisions.

There are other and better solutions available on this planet. Simply go to Switzerland and undergo their form of direct democracy. You might answer with some blahblah that such is not possible in a bigger entity, but this is definitly wrong. The Swiss are neutral, conservative, free and social at the same time. You should enter this country sooner or later to learn something about real freedom.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweiz#Politisches_System

The US have also states (California, Oregon) with strong elements of direct democracy.

You are correct. The nation building of Germany was somehow a failure because the actors of the "first hour" were afraid to go too far since they feared too much freedom of the German people. This had some undestandable historical causes (misuse of the "Volksentscheid" in the Weimarer Republik) on one hand and schmoozed the Allies on the other. You Americans had a occupation zone that was easy to control. Even the German TV and radio was (and is) controlled through the gouvernment. That made it extremely easy to canalize any opposition.

Wer hat die Wahl? A "election poster" from my mother

Germany is far from being perfect and there is much to change. Nevertheless I still love my country much more than yours. :)

Maybe some of those faults happen again in the moment in Iraq altough on a different level. The legal basement of contemporary Iraq is Islam. Let me quote you:

It does not matter what you think.... .... The fact is that the North Africa, the Middle East to include Persia, Afghanistan and parts of Asia such as Indonesia are societies largely organized around Islam. The fact that Sharia law rules in most of these nations is alone proof of this fact.... ...That reasoning is fundamentally flawed. You can be as open minded as you wish, to a Jihadist you are either a person of the book (Dhimmi- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi ) or if you’re like most Germans and secular you’re not even a person of the book, and I think we all know what the Quran says to do with people it calls infidels.

Do you think a person of the book like you is different to islamist Iraqis? Do you really think that it is a solution to substitute one islamic regime through another? This is what I call cretinism and a complete lack of concepts. You guys acted like complete idiots.

since you’re a socialist and have no true understanding or respect for freedom,

Oh my God. Socialism. A fu++ing concept for fu++ing people. Socialism and awareness of idiotic concepts are a fundamental difference.

People like you embarrass me on a very personal level since I’m of German heritage. I am at a point where I’m ashamed of what Germany is and what it represents. I have more respect for a culture and nation such as the Israeli’s than for my own heritage.

Hitler felt quite simular in his Fuehrerbunker. Seriously - what has Israel done so far for the freedom in Iraq and Afghanistan?

My wife is a German teacher here in Plano Texas, maybe you can explain to her how she should tell her kids why Germany, a nation sucking of the teat of a global free economy (Something you even brag about with your exports), a nation under the protection of NATO for 50 years in the face of Soviet aggression, someone who called on NATO to fix THEIR Balkan problems, after 911 did as little as possible to come to aide the US?

If she/you dismiss Germany or German culture she should better look for a different job.

You know very well that the reaction on 9/11 was also a question of commensurability. Had Iraq anything to do with 9/11? Is is nessecary to bring up a whole population through long lasting bombardments in Afghanistan? Why were you guys unable to play the good guys like you did after 1945 in Germany? You had undoubtedly some success in bringing up some Taliban or Al Quaida terrorists. At the same time you cultured a few million new ones through chicken-hearted bombing since some of your comrades lacked the balls to search for terrorists with "boots on the ground". Collateral damage means new trouble. Massive trouble.

We Germans simply tried a different concept and we had much more success than you so far. I admit that the south of Afghanistan is different from the north, but things would be much better if your troops would have acted more careful.

9/11 was indeed a point where America had the right to expect help from its friends. Nevertheless its friends also could expect a certain ammount of intelligence and (in result of thinking) commensurability. I share your view that we Germans never have done enough, but I am also well aware of the fact that it was a quite smart move of our gouvernment to keep us out of some of your operations.

Post Scriptum Euroarabicum:

You missed to answer these questions:

So what is your solution? Kill all muslims? Burn them with a global termonuclear war?. Start a new Holocaust?

[Red6]

“So what is your solution? Kill all muslims? Burn them with a global termonuclear war?. Start a new Holocaust?” You ask-

When did you stop beating your wife? When are you going to build all the free housing the poor people in Germany deserve?

Another argument based on a logical fallacy (The rhetorical question & reductive fallacy all in one).

• The rhetorical part is obvious and intended to lead the reader to a predetermined outcome.

• The oversimplification (reductive fallacy) is that the alternatives are doing nothing, or killing all Muslims.

You always end up in the same place; rationalizing doing nothing.

Try debating a topic using an argument that is sound, in doing so you might want to steer clear of Der Spiegel, which isn’t news, but just a reflection of contemporary societal “moods” as viewed by the German left. It’s a colorful magazine that tells the people what they want to hear.

There are many things that need done, and creating false arguments isn’t an answer. Short term we need to worry about Syria’s already existing missile systems, a threat to Israel. Iran’s missile threat is regional and soon will extend to parts of Eastern Europe with the Shahab 4, that’s why Poland, Czech Republic and others are on board with missile defense. Likewise there is a terrorist threat emanating from both Syria and Iran. Both nations back Hezbollah, with Iran you also have the Quads forces which have as their sphere of influence primarily the Middle East, but also extending to wherever you have larger Iranian populations and political/economic connections, such as into Germany. In fact the head of the Quads forces today Brig. Gen. Mohammed Jafari was personally involved in an assassination of dissidents in Vienna 1989 and is wanted for this. But no worries, your proud tough Germans won’t do anything about that, they have bigger things to worry about, like trying to bring criminal charges against General Sanchez or Rumsfeld; how did that go by the way?

Boy, it sure got quiet about those negotiations between the EU with the Germans leading the way reference Iran’s nuclear program, hasn’t it?

The German answer: do nothing, is no answer at all, nor is it intellectual. All these arguments are always the same; a form of schadenfreude or false intellectualism which is intended to justify a nihilistic world view and lack of involvement dealing with the real threats out there. Such is the argument that US forces are having difficulties in Afghanistan because of their M.O. To be frank, the German Bundeswehr basically uses US doctrine. In fact NATO doctrine is largely a “direct lift” from the US, with an AJP stamped on it. From Somalia, to the Balkans or even Afghanistan and today’s Lebanon; he who bunkers himself in to stay safe and does little reference the threat they were sent to deal with, accomplishes nothing. What has the German Marine done so far reference the Lebanon/Israel/Syria/Iran issue? You don’t even dare put troops on the ground because you’re such wimps, but dispense advice to others. In Afghanistan the Germans occupy space the US cleared in 2001 and controlled by the Northern Alliance which is generally friendly to Western interests, you don’t even dare go South, and six years after the begin of the war you’re debating whether a German plane should be allowed to drop a bomb! The war is essentially over, and the Germans are debating whether they should be allowed to drop a bomb, great doing- What heros! But as usual, you dispense more advice. In Somalia the Germans rushed to the North, an area generally less dangerous and engage in no activities that would “fix” the problems, dealing with local warlords. Their military operations were about force protection while the warlords do what they always do right under their nose, as in Lebanon today. But thank God you were there, and maybe you can dispense some more advise? Like with Lebanon today, you don’t really want to do anything and only “check the block” politically when it’s necessary to do something because of the international outcry for action. Yet when the rubber hits the road, you’re Germany does as little as possible; their forces essentially use oxygen and occupy space, but do little to really fix anything, anywhere, ever.

Another thing you might want to consider in you no WMD in Iraq argument.

http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2489930.ece

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1189411428847&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

No worries, in Germany this won’t be big news. It forces them to see something they don’t want to. The Cold War thank God is over and Putin is their friend, there is no Islamic threat, and missile defense is a crazy idea by the “Ami’s.” Only “Schrott Staaten” are in Iraq; like Australia, Poland, the UK, Italy, Netherlands, Japan, South Korea…… and Germany in a “multilateral” way is the nation that much of Europe can thank for an even greater Russian influence and dependency on energy, for standing quietly while regional security establishments that share with all NATO nations were under attack internally by some provincial left politicians. Let’s hope most people can’t remember Schroeder’s anti missile defense position pre 2001, even though requesting that Germany be put under the shield once in place…….

Your Germany is fading into obscurity on the world stage not because the US is holding you down, but because you Volk is culturally on the decline. All indicators point to that, including the declining numbers of foreigner’s world wide wishing to learn German. Your own people as a society don’t even have the necessary birth rate to support your society. On the world stage you were bumped economically to third place by Japan in the 70s. Today you’re being bumped to fourth and then fifth place by China and India respectively. Economically you’re a basket case with a malingering economic outcast, and politically your influence has shrunk, despite people like you “feeling” like you are someone again because of Schroeder’s “Deutscher Weg.” Germany’s decline is cultural in nature, and the economic, political and even security matters are all tied together. Your slow and painful decline is your own doing and people like you simply rationalize failure and decline because you feel you must, since you’re German.

Today- Germany is at the heart of the secular-nihilist West. Germany is no beacon of Western culture or Christianity, she does not promote democracy, and she is unwilling to raise a finger, even if thousands are being slaughtered right outside her own doors in the Balkans. As I have said before, the nation of Martin Luther today is part of the core that breeds the most vehement anti-God thought on this planet, from Marx to Nietzsche. Do you know why a pope from Poland was chosen years ago? Do you know why a pope from Germany was chosen recently?

I’m not advocating the destruction of all Muslims, but you’re advocating and rationalizing the continuance of your own decline, and you do so because you’re “Stolz” to be a German.

[Red6]

The downfall of Germany was the “Wende.”

Germany today is suffering not because of the enormous costs of East reconstruction, but the cultural destruction of the social fabric in society. Germany slipped further to the left after unification. West Germany would have never reelected Schroeder, West Germany is more religious. West Germany has closer ties with the US, they see a partnership within NATO, and they have a more free market perspective economically.

Today you can take a map of unified Germany and politically along issues you’d see it’s divided along the lines of the former DDR and FRG. The unification with the former East has caused a huge shift in German “Kultur u. Werte.” Of course not all fit this description in the East; it’s a game of statistics I’m talking about here.

You can not expect a wall to fall and think that 17 million people indoctrinated over 50 years will suddenly embrace personal responsibility, believe in God, think that they are on the same team with NATO and the US, or even have the work ethic of some W. German assembly worker in Munich. Walls fall, paradigms remain much longer-

[Atlantic Bridge]

The German answer: do nothing, is no answer at all, nor is it intellectual.

Come and get it.

The question is not if someone is able to project his power for a short term, the question is the long term benefit from such activities. The US are well able to project short term potency but in the long run they were not very successfull to stay in hostile environments. Saigon is Ho Chi Minh town today and Mogadischu is ruled by Hussein Mohammed Farah (the son of the warlord "General" Aidid).

After all the rebels in Irak are quite effective in paralyzing the country completely. They might not "win" but they will not loose either and it is quite likely that a certain amount of terror will last if the contemporary regime is not changed. This makes a autonomous existance of the Iraqis very difficult and they are going to stay dependend on welfare from the US. Although the fundamental premises for investment (oil, educated people) between Euprat and Tigris theoretically would be great no sane investor will spend a single buck because of the ongoing instabillity.

No investments => no development => new dissatisfaction => new terrorists => no investments ...

New terrorists => more American millitary efford => more welfare from America => new dissatisfaction in America => new majorities in America => ...

Do I have to continue?

It happened in Viet Nam and it will happen again in Iraq. You guys made some fundamental faults there. In difference to after war Germany you failed to integrate the elites of the former Baathist regime into your own phalanx. You know very well that in Germany the crossover between nazism and democracy happened practically without any personal changes if we ignore the highest level of nazism (even some of those found their place in the after-war-society of Germany). It is quite simple - it does not matter if you have a terror regime or the democracy of Switzerland. The individuals who do the "heavy lifting" in the gouvernment are always the same ones, since each country has only a limited pool of people that are able to so so due to their abillities. It might be embarrassing, but a former Baathist executive who is competent might be simply much better in his job than his substitute, a innocent car-seller who is only anxious but not able. The German success in the 50ties and 60ties was based on the professionalism of former nazis.

To my limited knowlege you Americans dumped the Baathist millitary, you dumped the Baathist executives and you failed to pass the Iraqis a working gouvernmental system that is secular like in Turkey. Instead of this you builded up a army out of young men with no known previous involvement into the Saddam regime. The problem is that those people are said to be completely unprofessional and untrustworthy. Furthermore the gouvernment has serious resentment against the US, some of them are pro-Iranian some are islamist dumbasses and all of them are unreliable.

So you deal with a mob of islamist idiots and with growing security problems because of their complete incompetence. It will cost you millions and bazillions, nerves and -last but not least- the lives of many American sons. And to make it worse - this is a banana problem.

As a MBA you should have heared of the "balance sheet". You can also use such a balance sheet as a thinking model for political matters. If you do so you will find out that balance in Iraq does not look good. De facto it is a desaster. Therefore the question must be allowed if it would have been not better to tolerate the combination of a dictator and a impotent millitary that provides stable conditions in the region instead to intervene in 2003. Such might have been unfair for those Iraqis who prefer to be free, but would have been de facto a much better alternative to those Americans who died for something that does not work.

Doing nothing can turn out as a quite intelligent strategy in the end and blind actionism might result in a desaster. It depends on the case. The "no" of our gouvernment was absolutely okay since our people refused to be involved into this operation. Regrettably they were right to do so.

Another thing you might want to consider in you no WMD in Iraq argument.

It is a fact is that you have many people on this planet that are able to synthesize Sarin i.e.. If you need a instructions manual: Mummies "cookbook" to binary Sarin, VX and as an "bonus" Hexogen.

Do ypu really think it is possible to avoid the proliferation of C-weapons effektivly if even a crazy sect in Japan is able to fabricate them? Does it makes sense to start offensive wars only because some nations probably own this kind of weapons? Why did the US not declare war to Pakistan, a islamist millitary regime, after they tested their first nuclear warheads (which are much more dangerous than a Sarin weapon)? Why did the US not invade North Korea, a country that is openly working on nukes? Why did the US not invade Iran so far?. (This are indeed rethoric questions since it is known that the US are simply unable to fight big wars on 3 or more fronts).

I do not like the "kein Blut für Oel" propaganda either, but I refuse to give up my brain. It is obvious that the US set off this war because Saddam Hussein was a impotent opponent on a huge sea of oil. Your administration wanted to kill three birds with one stone. 1. Eliminate Saddam Hussein 2. pacify the ME and last but not least 3. make a good business. None of those goals is dishonorable as long as they are combined. Nevertheless you guys reached only one goal and turned the others into the opposite. Therefore this operation is a desaster in every way. Time will tell what the future might brings. If your soldiers are gone it is quite likely that Iran and the Turks will take over. Ayatholla Chamenei might send you some medals.

Now tell me if the decision not to send the Bundeswehr to Iraq was wrong or right if you consider the internal German interests (no of the German people; no perspective on a clear surrender of the Iraqi restistance; no working concept for post-war Iraq on the US-side)?

[Atlantic Bridge]

Germany slipped further to the left after unification. West Germany would have never reelected Schroeder, West Germany is more religious. West Germany has closer ties with the US, they see a partnership within NATO, and they have a more free market perspective economically.

This is correct and there is no fast solution for this problem. Personally I would prefer the old idea of a "Europe of the regions", were every region is responsible for itself although I am aware that this is not realistic in the moment. Somebody from Switzerland Austria or even the Alsace-Lorraine is ethnically much closer to me than those dudes around this godless town of Berlin. I am of Swabian and Alemanni origin i.e.. We have a different language, different values and different manners than "Berliners". Western Europe needs dissolving and reorganisation. The old European concept of small nations that contain people from different tribes is somehow obsolete. A federation of republics with a maximum of internal freedom that centralize some of their rights to a federal government (foreign affairs, millitary etc.) would be -in my eyes- a suitable way for the future.

Nevertheless that are the dreams of the future. You see - I am no blind "nationalist" as you always understand me.

Today- Germany is at the heart of the secular-nihilist West.

It needs lots of Chuzpe (you understand that much Yiddish - do you?) for a American to say that. I am aware that there is a fundamental difference between Plano/Texas and Miami with the worlds biggest porno-industry, Los Angeles as the "mother town" of AIDS with its numerous Homosexuals or New York as the home town of the Christopher Street Day. Nevertheless you Americans have the same problems like we Germans if we talk about different lifestyles and regions. The first transsexuals I saw were not from Germany they were in New York. Even

the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a invention of Americans. Do not tell me that BS about your moral advantage. You make a clown of yourself.