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Miami Police Given Choice of Carrying Assault Rifles
NY Times ^ | September 17, 2007 | NA

Posted on 09/16/2007 8:54:03 PM PDT by neverdem

MIAMI, Sept. 16 (AP) — Patrol officers here will have the option of carrying assault rifles as they try to combat the rise in the use of similar weapons by criminals, the city’s police chief said Sunday.

The chief, John F. Timoney, approved the policy last week, before a Miami-Dade police officer was killed on Thursday in a shootout with a man wielding an assault rifle.

“This is something we do not do with any relish,” Chief Timoney said. “We do this reluctantly.”

The policy had been under review for about a year after officers began seeing an increase in the weapons in the hands of criminals, the chief said.

Officers interested in the guns will have to undergo two days of training and be certified in their use. The Police Department does not yet have money to buy the assault rifles, and if officers want to use them immediately they will have to pay for them, Chief Timoney said.

Years ago, law enforcement specialists like SWAT teams were the only officers to carry assault weapons, but now even some small town police agencies are arming officers with the AR-15, a civilian version of the military M-16 rifle.

Patrol officers in Danbury, Conn., have been allowed to carry the weapons since 2003. Police departments in Merced, Calif., and Waterloo, Iowa, have put them in all patrol vehicles for several years. In Stillwater, Okla., about 70 miles west of Tulsa, every patrol officer is issued an AR-15.

Officers in Los Angeles have been equipped with the weapons since a 1997 gunfight outside a bank where police officers were out-gunned by a man armed...

--snip--

The Miami Police Department said 15 of its 79 homicides last year involved assault weapons. This year, 12 of the 60 homicides have involved the high-power guns...

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Government; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: assaultweapons; banglist; donutwatch; labeet; miami; policestate
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1 posted on 09/16/2007 8:54:04 PM PDT by neverdem
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To: Travis McGee; Joe Brower; El Gato; Squantos
BANG!
2 posted on 09/16/2007 8:56:12 PM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: neverdem
“This is something we do not do with any relish,” Chief Timoney said. “We do this reluctantly.”

He said it with a straight face no doubt.

3 posted on 09/16/2007 8:56:12 PM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all.)
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To: neverdem

Sounds good to me.


4 posted on 09/16/2007 8:56:33 PM PDT by Vision ("Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in him." Jeremiah 17:7)
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To: neverdem

If they believe they are facing a narco-terrorist insurgency, why don’t they call out the National Guard?

The military should respond to armies foreign and domestic.


5 posted on 09/16/2007 8:57:58 PM PDT by weegee (NO THIRD TERM. America does not need another unconstitutional Clinton co-presidency.)
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To: neverdem

So...exactly what is the Time’s definition of “Assault Rifle”, and “High Power Weapon”. They seem to be using the terms interchangeably in the last sentence.


6 posted on 09/16/2007 8:59:49 PM PDT by Sergio (If a tree fell on a mime in the forest, would he make a sound?)
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To: neverdem

Someone set up us the bomb.


7 posted on 09/16/2007 9:02:25 PM PDT by Sender ("Kill the terrorists, secure the border, and give me back my freedom.")
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To: neverdem
Let them carry one of these. The cartridge is absolutely excellent on car bodies and out to 500 yards effective. And all in this small package.


8 posted on 09/16/2007 9:02:46 PM PDT by Pistolshot (Every woman, who can, should learn to shoot, and carry a gun.)
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To: Pistolshot

9 posted on 09/16/2007 9:06:18 PM PDT by umgud
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To: neverdem

Timoney is extremely anti-gun and supported the Klinton AWBan , but yet now he finds it reasonable for his police to carry these “ evil weapons “ .

I love the irony of it all ....


10 posted on 09/16/2007 9:10:30 PM PDT by Neu Pragmatist (Stop Rudy - Vote Thompson)
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To: Sergio
So...exactly what is the Time’s definition of “Assault Rifle”, and “High Power Weapon”. They seem to be using the terms interchangeably in the last sentence.

It was an AP story. Regardless, the folks in the MSM are fairly clueless about all firearms.

11 posted on 09/16/2007 9:10:42 PM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: neverdem

So how does this work? They keep it in their cruiser rack and deploy it when needed? Or go to every disturbing the peace call with a two point sling and 5.56 chest rig?


12 posted on 09/16/2007 9:12:20 PM PDT by happinesswithoutpeace (You are receiving this broadcast as a dream)
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To: umgud
The P90 is ok, I have problems with the stock/sights setup. You have to raise the stock so the point of the butt is in your shoulder not the entire butt and you have to bring your head down to the sights. Not a real good ergo rifle. The cartridge is lousy out passed about 200 yards. Not good on a car body either.

Mag changes are difficult under the best of circumstances. Fortunately, I get to put rounds through a lot of the new weapons. The 6.8 SPC is really impressive. I was surprised.

13 posted on 09/16/2007 9:12:31 PM PDT by Pistolshot (Every woman, who can, should learn to shoot, and carry a gun.)
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To: weegee

I tend to agree with you. Anyone who favors a more militarized police force please see New Orleans. They would probably just use their assault rifles to confiscate the Law abiding citizen’s cache, although I am a bit pessimistic.


14 posted on 09/16/2007 9:12:58 PM PDT by Xenophon450 (They say it's lonely at the top, then I am as lonely as can be.)
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To: PJ-Comix

Ping!


15 posted on 09/16/2007 9:15:25 PM PDT by Vision ("Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in him." Jeremiah 17:7)
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To: happinesswithoutpeace

Every department I know keeps their rifles in a cruiser rack or in a case in the trunk.

I’ve got no problem with officers having access to the correct weapon for the job.


16 posted on 09/16/2007 9:16:07 PM PDT by MediaMole
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To: MediaMole

Thanks.


17 posted on 09/16/2007 9:17:02 PM PDT by happinesswithoutpeace (You are receiving this broadcast as a dream)
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To: Neu Pragmatist

Unfortunately, this is all too common amongst the authoritarian type. Government good, public bad.


18 posted on 09/16/2007 9:18:19 PM PDT by kenth
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To: Pistolshot

I have a T/C barrel for my G2 carbine in 6.8. Better trajectory/ballistics than the 30-30. I use it for deer.


19 posted on 09/16/2007 9:19:19 PM PDT by umgud
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To: MediaMole
The reality is that these police were gunned down after pulling over the assailant. If it was in the trunk they would still have been out of luck.

They need to go back to carrying shotguns in the front of the car. If it's too long then carry a collapsing stock version. HiStandard used to make a nasty looking bullpup shotgun.

That would ruin your day.

20 posted on 09/16/2007 9:26:46 PM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: happinesswithoutpeace
So how does this work? They keep it in their cruiser rack and deploy it when needed? Or go to every disturbing the peace call with a two point sling and 5.56 chest rig?

Found this article online at the POLICE Magazine web site:

Fighting with a Carbine

It’s not enough to have a patrol rifle in your trunk; you need to train to shoot it fast and on target.

by R.K. Campbell

Old West sheriffs and marshals often carried a Colt .45 called the Peacemaker. But that .45 had the limitations of all handguns, so savvy Western lawmen also kept a short-barreled repeating rifle like a Winchester in their saddle bags. They knew that in a real gunfight, a carbine is the real “peace maker.”

Today, cops are putting carbines back in their saddle bags, uh…the trunks of their patrol cars.

A number of critical events in the past 10 years have made the patrol carbine a desirable complement to the peace officer’s pistol and shotgun. The complacent era in which police officers patrolled only with a pistol started to come to an end in the fire and smoke of such infamous incidents as North Hollywood and Columbine.

A lot of police agencies also started adding rifles or pistol-caliber carbines to their lists of approved tools following the 9/11 attacks. After all, it’s likely that if terrorists engage in a firefight with American police officers that they will be very well armed, possibly outfitted with body armor, and capable of firing accurately at more than 100 yards. As we all know, a pistol would be next to useless in such a long-range fight against armored subjects.

There are those who say that the need for a rifle in patrol operations is easy to overstate and that it’s likely to sit in the trunk a long time before you use it. They’re pretty much right. But here’s the counter to that argument. When you need a rifle on patrol, you need it really badly. And you and the public you serve would be endangered because you don’t have one...

Rest of article at

http://www.policemag.com/Articles/2006/05/Fighting-with-a-Carbine.aspx

21 posted on 09/16/2007 11:33:35 PM PDT by Screaming_Gerbil (Let's Roll...)
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To: neverdem
It was an AP story. Regardless, the folks in the MSM are fairly clueless about all firearms.

This despite the fact that the AP Stylebook has a whole special section on firearms.

...But of course, these terms have been redefined from what they really mean.

22 posted on 09/17/2007 1:12:44 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Screaming_Gerbil
As we all know, a pistol would be next to useless in such a long-range fight against armored subjects.

As would many pistol-cartridge carbines...

If one is going to carry in the trunk, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have a carbine, but of course, that depends on the jurisdiction.

23 posted on 09/17/2007 1:15:48 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: neverdem

Interesting. I live is a small town in a very rural area and the police here have been patrolling with “assault weapons”(in this case they are really REALLY assault weapons) on board for decades. They keep M4s or MP5s in the trunk of their patrol cars. I’m a little surprised that they are just now getting around to doing this is a place like Miami.


24 posted on 09/17/2007 1:26:08 AM PDT by KoRn (Just Say NO ....To Liberal Republicans - FRED THOMPSON FOR PRESIDENT!)
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To: Gondring
An Internet search for " Police patrol rifle " gives a lot of support for the .223 caliber AR-15 weapons system. As one web site put it: "The Police Patrol Rifle market is dominated by the AR15 system."

Found an excellent article (in .pdf format) on the Police Patrol Rifle here:

“THE PATROL RIFLE/CARBINE” A MORE SUITABLE PATROL LONG GUN

E.M.U SCHOOL OF POLICE STAFF AND COMMAND

SERGEANT CRAIG BAULDRY CANTON TOWNSHIP POLICE DEPARTEMENT CANTON, MI

http://www.emich.edu/cerns/downloads/papers/PoliceStaff/Weapons%20,%20Technology,%20and%20Equipment/Patrol%20Rifle--Carbine.pdf

25 posted on 09/17/2007 1:42:25 AM PDT by Screaming_Gerbil (Let's Roll...)
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To: neverdem

what wussies

back in the old days when the likes of the Miami River cops were robbing dope smugglers and dumping their bodies in said river

the didn’t need no stinking assault rifles

they did just fine with regular old guns even Dumbo Zumbo woulda appreciated

i miss myamuh


26 posted on 09/17/2007 1:50:33 AM PDT by wardaddy (Pigpen lives!!!!)
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To: KoRn
I’m a little surprised that they are just now getting around to doing this is a place like Miami

I am guessing political reasons. The Police chief and Mayor would have to justify the police officers using their weapons to the news media and the public.

Probably in rural areas the citizens and the police have a much better relationship. The citizens have respect for and trust the police, and expect them to be armed well enough to do whatever they might be called on to do, and assume that they are intelligent and well trained and will do the right thing.

I would guess in the bigger cities you have more of the welfare state anti-police mentality, plus the people and the lawyers looking to hit the legal lottery in a lawsuit against the police.

I am sure the lawyers and the families of the thugs would be screaming that the police are mowing down "disadvantaged urban youth" - or however they would be defending the thugs as - and it had to finally get pretty bad to be able to allow the street cops to have a patrol rifle available to them in order to give them a chance against the thugs armed with AK-47s.

27 posted on 09/17/2007 1:58:43 AM PDT by Screaming_Gerbil (Let's Roll...)
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To: Screaming_Gerbil

In Palm Beach County, if the sheriff’s deputy qualifies with an AR, he can have it. He has to buy his own, unless he gets on one of the tac teams. In many of the towns around here, the same policy applies. If the officer chooses to take the rifle training and purchase the rifle, he can have it. Quite a few of them do so.

I think the Broward County Sheriffs Department also allows its deputies to carry a rifle in the car after they qualify, but again, they have to buy it. I’ll have to check. I see mostly Palm Beach, only a few Broward deputies.

I’ve also been told some very disturbing things about this shooting by police officers in Palm Beach County. I’ll see a friend of mine tommorrow and try to verify some of it.


28 posted on 09/17/2007 4:26:26 AM PDT by sig226 (New additions to the list of democrat criminals - see my profile)
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To: neverdem
Criminals have access to any weapon on the black market including stingers.... What puzzles me is why police Chiefs are just now providing the firepower required to repel attackers that are well armed....


29 posted on 09/17/2007 4:50:19 AM PDT by cbkaty (I may not always post...but I am always here......)
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To: neverdem

Do they get grenade launchers, too?


30 posted on 09/17/2007 4:51:46 AM PDT by RichInOC ("Say 'ello to my leetle frien'!")
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To: RichInOC
Yep


31 posted on 09/17/2007 5:06:27 AM PDT by Pistolshot (Every woman, who can, should learn to shoot, and carry a gun.)
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To: neverdem
M1A with 30 round magazine in action at the FleetCenter in Boston for the Democratic National Convention. Somebody has style! The Springfield Armory M1A(center) is the current version of the venerable M14 in .308 caliber, I have both the AR15 and the M1A, the latter I would prefer if up against another assault rifle toting person.
32 posted on 09/17/2007 5:15:44 AM PDT by Eye of Unk
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To: neverdem; Larry Lucido; Horatio Gates; Cap'n Crunch; TEXASPROUD; hiredhand
“This is something we do not do with any relish,” Chief Timoney said. “We do this reluctantly.”

We ? You got a mouse in yer pocket chief ? I suspect that mouse is a risk manager for your department who's really just a rat !

Real patrolmen, working the streets vs a desk can make do with a bolt patrol rifle, something that will punch the kevlar these bad guys wear these days as we observed at the BOA Hollyweird robbery a few years back....such as the FN Patrol rifle vs an M4 . But I'd think that the M4 carbine would fill the needs better for urban or rural LEO's needs across the board.

As a deputy working alone in the rural mountains where radio links were few and far and cell phones were still a toy vs a tool..... I carried an M1A in my cruiser along with my shotgun. Backup was too far away. I relied on me and my own abilities alone for the most part.

Were I the chief or sheriff of a department today I'd issue the semi-auto version of the M4 carbine to all my officers / deputies with the instruction that seems to be lost on most LEO's these days ....you are responsible for every round you fire. Your must be aware of where your rounds will impact and the range and penetration of that weapons projectiles. Be surgical with you application of deadly force at all times if at all possible.

The ONLY reason I select the M4 carbine is that is the US DOD primary weapon that most former servicemen and new LEO's have experience and training with and if the need for a national guard call out is needed to aid LEO's in preserving the peace they have a logistical common for spares and ammunition etc ........

Just my opinion based on what I know and did in the past.......

33 posted on 09/17/2007 5:44:27 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: Screaming_Gerbil

The writer doesn’t know the difference between a saddle bag and a rifle scabbard.

Most old time sheriffs carried a Colt but it was in 44-40 so the Winchester and the revolver could share ammunition.

I’m not comfortable with city cops carrying rifles with thirty round mags. I think they should train with their shotguns and use slugs.


34 posted on 09/17/2007 5:53:58 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: neverdem

But WHY would the cops want Assault Weapons, unless they intend to slaughter a whole bunch of people in just seconds, spray-firing their weapons without even aiming?


35 posted on 09/17/2007 6:03:13 AM PDT by 2harddrive (...House a TOTAL Loss.....)
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To: neverdem

Let’s HOPE the cops don’t get too trigger-happy now - they already have that reputation in the Miami Metro-Squad.


36 posted on 09/17/2007 6:05:52 AM PDT by 2harddrive (...House a TOTAL Loss.....)
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To: neverdem

Just what we need - big city cops who can’t shoot straight spraying the neighborhood with auto fire.

A few years back some scumsucker bank robber took a female teller hostage. The sheriff gave the moron one minute to release her. At one minute plus one second he was dead with a bullet hole right between the eyes. Deer hunters who carry sheriff badges are a blessing to the community. It’s an advantage rural Americans have over big city residents.


37 posted on 09/17/2007 6:14:50 AM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: Squantos
When our chief retires I'll be giving ou a holler...LOL

WE've carried Ruger mini14's since 1991 and disposed of the shot gun option shortly after that. M4 or AR's are authorized if you want to shell out the $$$. Only one thing came up where they've been used for deadly force in that time that I can think of at the patrol level. Not that there hasn't been events where they could have been used. The training lieutenant actually prefers if we sling 'em all the time in the spirit of your tagline.

I think more than two days of training would be preferrable. Something more intense, like a Thunder Ranch week long looks better on your training record for those wrongful death lawsuits that invariably come up

38 posted on 09/17/2007 7:00:24 AM PDT by Horatio Gates
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To: sergeantdave

Oh sure...no big city cops know how to handle a rifle...or can aspire to being able to plug someone with a head shot...(rolling eyes)


39 posted on 09/17/2007 7:06:32 AM PDT by Horatio Gates
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To: neverdem; Squantos
Officers interested in the guns will have to undergo two days of training and be certified in their use.

"Quick and dirty."

40 posted on 09/17/2007 7:44:18 AM PDT by Travis McGee (--www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com--)
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To: Squantos
I can't speak for my county...but in an adjacent county ALL deputies get their choice of a .223 hi-cap rifle. They're limited by a certain budgetary number for the weapon so things like DSA's version of the M-4 is out of range. My buddy told me that they carry Bushmasters, Armalites, and Ruger Mini-14s...topped with (mostly) Eotech and AimPoint Comp series sights.

They got tired of running into gang bangers and being out gunned. I can relate. :-)
41 posted on 09/17/2007 8:56:22 AM PDT by hiredhand (My kitty disappeared. NOT the rifle!)
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To: Travis McGee; Horatio Gates

That is why the M4 would be a better choice for the veterans on the department. Budget is gonna give em maybe a few days to train as ya well know.

.......... I have to agree with HG on this issue. The patrol rifle course at Thunder Ranch would be perfect.

Real easy for HG to suggest though since TR moved up in his AO !.......:o)


42 posted on 09/17/2007 9:37:25 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: Squantos
Real easy for HG to suggest though since TR moved up in his AO !.......:o)

Clint Smith's T-Ranch urban rifle was only a 3 dayer iirc but well worth it and all iron sights. It seemed longer because after that I went to Steve Matoon's advanced sniper course. That was a long week + some...oh to be young again. It'd probably kill me now...LOL

43 posted on 09/17/2007 10:45:51 AM PDT by Horatio Gates
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To: Squantos
Your logic for choosing the ARs for patrol carry is impeccable.
44 posted on 09/17/2007 11:43:31 AM PDT by Travis McGee (--www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com--)
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To: Vision
"Sounds good to me."

With only two days of familiarization training? You've got to be kidding.

45 posted on 09/17/2007 12:27:41 PM PDT by semaj (Just shoot the bastards! * Your results may vary. Void where prohibited.)
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To: hiredhand

good selections.....not convinced on the outgunned reasons that PD’s put forth these days. BTW Snaggin yer gift off the site now.......... slooooooowly !!

Thanks ~


46 posted on 09/17/2007 12:34:18 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: USNBandit
AA-12 Automatic Shotgun


47 posted on 09/17/2007 12:35:12 PM PDT by CholeraJoe ("On the campus, the quiet campus, the lion burns tonight.")
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To: neverdem

East Coast chief should have let the rifles out more than a decade ago. What a moron.


48 posted on 09/17/2007 12:38:04 PM PDT by BurbankKarl
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To: Squantos
Sorry about the speed over there. :-)

When my buddy the deputy told me he was getting a Bushmaster M-4 clone, I thought "crap...what the heck for?!". But he's an avid shooter and he pointed out that at 100 yards with any "reasonable" handgun, you're still in a great deal of danger against an adversary with anything semi-auto that shoots 7.62x39, or .223 Rem.
49 posted on 09/17/2007 1:11:26 PM PDT by hiredhand (My kitty disappeared. NOT the rifle!)
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To: Screaming_Gerbil

Thanks for that link.


50 posted on 09/17/2007 1:35:09 PM PDT by happinesswithoutpeace (You are receiving this broadcast as a dream)
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