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American mythology (Ref: Fred Thompson) [Barf Alert]
The Ottawa Citizen ^ | September 21, 2007 | Dan Gardner

Posted on 09/24/2007 2:00:31 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

'You know," drawled Fred Thompson at a recent rally in Des Moines, Iowa, "you look back over our history and it doesn't take you long to realize that our people have shed more blood for other people's liberty than any other combination of nations in the history of the world."

This is an interesting statement, and not only because Fred Thompson has a good shot at being the Republican nominee for president in 2008, and an outside chance of winning. It's also interesting because of who Thompson is.

Fred Thompson is a Washington lobbyist. That's not what his campaign highlights, but it's what he has been for most of his working life. He is also an actor typecast as the growling, no-nonsense authority figure. And Thompson was, briefly, a U.S. senator who was mainly known for his affable manner and relaxed work ethic. And for being tall. Fred Thompson is very tall.

Thus, Thompson has little experience in management and less in elective office. He has no original ideas that anyone has been able to discern. He has embraced no particular cause. He doesn't even seem terribly interested in being president; it is widely believed his smart and ambitious wife cajoled him into running.

But despite all this, rank-and-file Republicans love the man for one, simple reason: Fred Thompson says only what they believe and he says it the way they want to hear it. And that is what makes Thompson's statement particularly interesting.

Thompson and his speechwriters know that a large swath of the American public believes the United States, alone in the world, fights wars to liberate oppressed people far away. America may occasionally make mistakes -- only very rarely, of course -- but it is always pure of heart.

This belief is dogma. It is a given. And any attempt to critically examine it will be answered with a few factoids and a barrage of condemnations. In that sense, it is the mirror image of the belief held by Noam Chomsky and his followers that the United States is a uniquely wicked power whose actions have brought nothing but woe and misery to the world. What distinguishes the two dogmas is the number of faithful sitting in the pews: Chomsky's cult is vastly outnumbered.

Happily, lots of Americans have not taken leave of reason and so a fact-checker at the Washington Post put the statement that opens this column under a microscope. In eight foreign wars since the late 19th century, the Post found, 623,288 Americans lost their lives. But Soviet losses in the Second World War alone were an order of magnitude greater than that and it was the Soviet Union's victories in the east that broke Nazi Germany's back and led to the liberation of Europe.

Of course the Soviets replaced Nazi chains with their own so it's a little disturbing to think of them as liberators. It's also true the Soviets only got into the war after being attacked, so it's a stretch to see the liberation of Europe as a factor in the country's decision to go to war.

But the same can be said about the American record. Remember that the U.S. sat out the first three years of the First World War and only got involved after German submarines attacked American ships and Germany was exposed urging Mexico to declare war on the U.S. That's quite a contrast with the British Empire, which decided to go to war after Germany invaded France and neutral Belgium. Thus, unlike the U.S., Britain, Canada, Australia and other countries can plausibly claim to have entered the war for the purpose of liberating foreigners.

And in the course of that war, the British Empire lost one million soldiers -- far more than the U.S. lost in all wars combined. Among the Empire's casualties were 65,000 Canadians -- a per capita loss far greater than the U.S. suffered in any of its foreign wars.

This scenario was repeated in the Second World War.

The U.S. did not declare war on Japan when it invaded China. Nor did it declare war on Germany when the Nazis invaded Poland, or overran Western Europe, or raced across the Soviet Union. Only in December, 1941, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, did the U.S. declare war, and even then only against Japan. The U.S. may never have gotten involved in Europe if Hitler hadn't foolishly declared war on the Americans.

Not so Britain, France, Canada and others. They all declared war in response to Germany's invasion of Poland, and so they can all argue they went to war to liberate people far away.

Now, I don't want to answer dogma with dogma. Strategic and national interests played major roles in the decisions of all combatants in the First and Second World Wars. They do in every war. It's a messy world and the motives of nations are seldom simple and pure.

The sort of Americans who cheer for Fred Thompson would agree with that statement -- as it applies to other countries. What they cannot seem to accept is that it applies to their country, too. For them, Americans are unique. The United States is unique. And what sets America and Americans apart is purity of heart.

"We are proud of that heritage," Thompson said in Iowa after citing the mythology of America-the-liberator. "I don't think we have anything to apologize for."

Nothing to apologize for. Never did anything wrong in 231 years of history. Nothing.

This is infantile. And dangerous. A superpower that believes it is pure of heart and the light of the world will inevitably rush in where angels fear to tread. And then it will find itself wondering why the foreigners it so selflessly helps hate it so.

For further reading, see: "Iraq, invasion of."

--------------------------------------------------------

Dan Gardner's column appears Wednesday, Friday and Saturday. E-mail: dgardner@thecitizen.canwest.com


TOPICS: Canada; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections; US: Tennessee; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: america; armedforces; deoppresoliber; electionpresident; elections; exceptionalism; fred; fredthompson; gop; liberation; military; republicans; thompson; war; worldwar1; worldwar2
Apeing the Washington Post, I see.
1 posted on 09/24/2007 2:00:35 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Naturally. Canadians are mainly the lapdogs of US liberals.


2 posted on 09/24/2007 2:20:51 AM PDT by counterpunch (Mitt and Kerry wish you a great Pride Weekend.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
The Founding Fathers of the United States asserted their claim to freedom and independence on the basis of certain "self-evident" truths about the human person: truths which could be discerned in human nature, built into it by "nature’s God." Thus they meant to bring into being, not just an independent territory, but a great experiment in what George Washington called "ordered liberty": an experiment in which men and women would enjoy equality of rights and opportunities in the pursuit of happiness and in service to the common good. Reading the founding documents of the United States, one has to be impressed by the concept of freedom they enshrine: a freedom designed to enable people to fulfill their duties and responsibilities toward the family and toward the common good of the community. Their authors clearly understood that there could be no true freedom without moral responsibility and accountability, and no happiness without respect and support for the natural units or groupings through which people exist, develop, and seek the higher purposes of life in concert with others.

The American democratic experiment has been successful in many ways. Millions of people around the world look to the United States as a model in their search for freedom, dignity, and prosperity. But the continuing success of American democracy depends on the degree to which each new generation, native-born and immigrant, makes its own the moral truths on which the Founding Fathers staked the future of your Republic. Their commitment to build a free society with liberty and justice for all must be constantly renewed if the United States is to fulfill the destiny to which the Founders pledged their "lives . . . fortunes . . . and sacred honor."

John Paul II

3 posted on 09/24/2007 2:34:04 AM PDT by ALPAPilot
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
it was the Soviet Union's victories in the east that broke Nazi Germany's back and led to the liberation of Europe

Pure Marxist BS. The Russians got to Berlin eating American grown food, marching in American made boots, supplied by American made trucks, with weapons repaired and maintained by American made tools carried to the Russians on American made trains. Since Easter Europe were not a freed by the Sovs, and only American lead Cold War made them free from either Nazi or Sov domination, Thompson's statement is correct and this author a silly ass.

4 posted on 09/24/2007 2:47:47 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
But wait, we actually care what every Canadian blame-America-first pseudo-intellectual revisionist crap weasel thinks...

Just kidding.

5 posted on 09/24/2007 2:52:17 AM PDT by TNPatriot (No arsenal ... is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. -RR)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

LMAO, this is some pretty humorous stuff. Fred’s wife cajoled him into running...

I thought the student editor, or at lest the teacher would give thumbs up or down on eighth grade diatribes like this.

I’ll bet the kid got free hamburgers for a week and enough acne jel to last for three months for writing this sophmoric fender bender.


6 posted on 09/24/2007 3:05:26 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Hillary has pay fever. There she goes now... "Ha Hsu, ha hsu, haaaa hsu, ha hsu...")
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

He made Fred’s case very nicely. We are slow to enter wars and we do so for the benefit of freedom.


7 posted on 09/24/2007 3:13:43 AM PDT by Raycpa
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To: jellybean; Politicalmom

Ping.

Here’s one for the FRead, jb.


8 posted on 09/24/2007 3:26:57 AM PDT by upchuck (Psychiatrists have labeled George Bush's South-of-the-Border obsession as mexicosis. ~ firehat)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
"Of course the Soviets replaced Nazi chains with their own...But the same can be said about the American record."

"the Soviets only got into the war after being attacked"

Nazi-Soviet Pact...Russo-Finnish War.

9 posted on 09/24/2007 3:30:46 AM PDT by endthematrix (He was shouting 'Allah!' but I didn't hear that. It just sounded like a lot of crap to me.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

So this guy basically makes tha accusation that there are a group of see-no-evil Americans who will react in a certain way to the statements he makes and then, naturally the FR horde proves him right.

The real point to be made here is not necessarily what gets a country into a war. It is what that country does after it wins a war. Those nations that were “liberated” by the Soviets are now just emerging from their half-century of “liberation”. Whereas within 15 years of being occupied by America, most countries are paragons of freedom, wealth and responsibility.

The problem with Iraq was by no means the motive or intention - it was the unbelievably incompetent and negligent mismanagement that is inherent in this administration. WWII gives some very good lessons as to the number of boots on the ground it takes to win the peace.


10 posted on 09/24/2007 3:40:43 AM PDT by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit (Everyone wants a simple answer; but sometimes there isn't a simple answer)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“In eight foreign wars since the late 19th century, the Post found, 623,288 Americans lost their lives. But Soviet losses in the Second World War alone were an order of magnitude greater than that and it was the Soviet Union’s victories in the east that broke Nazi Germany’s back and led to the liberation of Europe.”

This guys about as nutty as a fruitcake. The Soviets weren’t sacrificing their lives for the freedom of others. They weren’t even sacrificing their lives for their own freedom. They were defending Joe Stalin.


11 posted on 09/24/2007 3:41:44 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
This comment set Mark Steyn firmly against Fred Thompson.
If I were running for President and could have only on fan in the press and commentary circles, it would be Mark Steyn.

Steyn wrote, "Sorry, guys, if that's the level of bragadocio required, include me out. It should not be necessary in "supporting our troops" to denigrate everybody's else."
12 posted on 09/24/2007 3:54:49 AM PDT by elizabetty (Don't Taze Me Bro')
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To: elizabetty

So you disagree with Senator Fred Thompson’s statement, I take it?


13 posted on 09/24/2007 3:57:39 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (https://www.fred08.com/contribute.aspx?RefererID=c637caaa-315c-4b4c-9967-08d864cd0791)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“Thus, Hillary has little experience in management and less in elective office. She has no original ideas that anyone has been able to discern. She has embraced no particular cause. She just seems terribly interested in being president; it is widely believed her smart and ambitious wife cajoled her into running.”


14 posted on 09/24/2007 3:58:26 AM PDT by 6SJ7
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To: 6SJ7

...husband...


15 posted on 09/24/2007 4:33:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MNJohnnie
The Russians got to Berlin eating American grown food, marching in American made boots, supplied by American made trucks, with weapons repaired and maintained by American made tools carried to the Russians on American made trains.

Kind of disconcerting that of all these, we could probably only provide the food anymore.

16 posted on 09/24/2007 4:39:08 AM PDT by airborne (Proud to be a conservative! Proud to support Duncan Hunter for President!)
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To: airborne

Nope, we could still do all of it.


17 posted on 09/24/2007 5:06:21 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/)
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To: MNJohnnie
If put in the same position, I think so.

But not without converting our factories to mass produce those items we’ve outsourced.

And not without it taking considerable time.

Remember when we bought our military berets from China?

18 posted on 09/24/2007 5:09:38 AM PDT by airborne (Proud to be a conservative! Proud to support Duncan Hunter for President!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
In eight foreign wars since the late 19th century

And yet he only mentions a few... what about the rest of the eight? How did we fail to fight for freedom in Korea and the others? And interesting that he fails to note the most important, and bloodiest, American war... the American Civil War, where each side was fighting for freedom, as they saw it.

19 posted on 09/24/2007 5:17:44 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; EarthBound

“relaxed work ethic”

Liberal buzz-words for “limited government”.

They see a laissze faire (sp?) government as *lazy*.


20 posted on 09/24/2007 5:23:15 AM PDT by MacDorcha (We have been at war with this mindset since before the Socratic method was borne.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This guy says it was the USSR who broke the Nazi’s back and that the USSR only invades when attacked. What about Poland?

What about all the countries under Communism which were made part of the USSR after WWII? Can Mr. Gardner likewise show which countries we ‘claimed’ for the USA? USSR took half of Germany. If we hadn’t been there, all of Europe would have been behind the ‘iron curtain’.

This Gardner guy is NO student of history OR facts. Someone needs to confront him and teach him the difference between truth and lies.


21 posted on 09/24/2007 6:18:28 AM PDT by Dudoight
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Soviets won WWII for us -

straight out of the USSR History books.


22 posted on 09/24/2007 6:20:56 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: elizabetty

But that’s not Fred’s point (denigrating others’ troops).

He’s simply responding to the left’s anti-America viewpoint of “America: always wrong”.

And yes, we on the right want to see that viewpoint CONFRONTED.


23 posted on 09/24/2007 6:23:02 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Nothing to apologize for. Never did anything wrong in 231 years of history. Nothing.

Oh, you have to love leftists.

Let me re-phrase the above into what we hear from the left:
"Nothing to be proud of. Never did anything noble in 231 years of history. Nothing."

You know, this is great, actually. A leftist getting upset because a candidate isn't trashing his country. All we have to do, folks, is draw them out and expose them, and the battle is won.

24 posted on 09/24/2007 6:25:54 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: MNJohnnie

But what about the claim that more British died in the 2nd world war than Americans in all of our wars?

I’m accepting for this argument your rejection of the soviet claim, although fred’s statement wasn’t about who gave the most support, but about how many people died, so does it matter what boots those dead russians were wearing?

Also, while I love my country, and believe we have our hearts in the right place most of the time, and certainly in modern times have little interest in aquiring territory, our history is not without the occasional military conquest. We did take over this country from the natives (not saying we didn’t have a right to do so, but we didn’t buy it from them), and there was the whole Philipine thing.

Still, what this really shows is that it’s better as a politician to speak in generalities when making general statements of our greatness. Nobody could argue that we have a history of fighting for other people’s freedom. IT’s only the specific claim of the number of dead Americans that can be questioned.


25 posted on 09/24/2007 6:48:09 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

The Russians died to enslave, not liberate people


26 posted on 09/24/2007 6:51:16 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
The British, and their empire forces like the Canadians, died to protect their empire, not liberate it.
27 posted on 09/24/2007 6:53:08 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
'You know," drawled Fred Thompson at a recent rally in Des Moines, Iowa,...

Imagine the liberal press beginning an article this way...

Okay so there isn't an "s" in 'You know', but you get my point.

28 posted on 09/24/2007 7:06:06 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: CharlesWayneCT
But what about the claim that more British died in the 2nd world war than Americans in all of our wars?

The author cleverly pulls a sleight of hand here. He actually claims more casualties for the "British Empire". That apparently includes Canadians, Australians, S. Africans, Indians, Singapore, Hong Kong, and likely the civilian casualties in the Blitz. He then compares that to the military casualties of just the U.S.

Now, he may be right and Thompson may be wrong with the actual numbers, but when I see statistical hanky-panky like this, I suspect the numbers are thoroughly cooked.

29 posted on 09/24/2007 7:17:07 AM PDT by LexBaird (Behold, thou hast drinken of the Aide of Kool, and are lost unto Men.)
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To: MNJohnnie

The Canadians were certainly not their “empire forces” in World War 2.

And while the British were in more danger of the war than we were, we WERE attacked by the Japanese before we entered the war, and we WERE attacked by the Germans before we sent our troops to Europe.

And while it is true that many British died defending their own country, many of them also died retaking France and pushing the Germans back and eventually defeating them.

I think Fred’s point was accurate, but your defense illustrates the difficulty of the quote as pointed out by Mark Steyn.

In order to defend what Fred said, you had to resort to claiming that the British and Canadians weren’t fighting for others, but simply to save their own butts.

So why are the British fighting side-by-side with us in Iraq? Why are the Canadians in Afghanistan?

We are NOT the only country in the world who is willing to send our own people to die to help others. We can praise our own selfless sacrifice without making it a contest or denigrating the sacrifice of others.


30 posted on 09/24/2007 7:18:27 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: MNJohnnie

‘The British, and their empire forces like the Canadians, died to protect their empire, not liberate it.’

What nonsense. So far as I can recall, neither Poland, France, Holland or Denmark were in the British Empire.

When Britains allies were attacked, Britain declared war on Hitler. When Americas allies were attacked they ummed and arrhhed and eventually sent some weapons. I don’t blame America for one second for putting it’s own best interests ahead of it’s allies, but please, enough with the moral high gorund.


31 posted on 09/24/2007 7:35:12 AM PDT by britemp
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To: LexBaird

‘Now, he may be right and Thompson may be wrong with the actual numbers, but when I see statistical hanky-panky like this, I suspect the numbers are thoroughly cooked.’

Here are some more historically accurate figures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties


32 posted on 09/24/2007 7:38:00 AM PDT by britemp
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To: MNJohnnie

‘Pure Marxist BS.’

Not pure BS.

The battle of kursk makes the D-Day landings look like a minor skirmish. I don’t think allied forces would’ve landed on that fateful June day if there had been no eastern front to exhaust and dilute the nazi forces.


33 posted on 09/24/2007 7:41:51 AM PDT by britemp
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To: elizabetty

‘Steyn wrote, “Sorry, guys, if that’s the level of bragadocio required, include me out. It should not be necessary in “supporting our troops” to denigrate everybody’s else.”’

What a refreshing attitude for this forum where ones ally is often more hated than ones enemy.


34 posted on 09/24/2007 7:43:11 AM PDT by britemp
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To: britemp

While Britain and France DID declare war on Germany after the invasion of Poland, they didn’t actually DO anything until France was attacked.

The British (quite rightly) believed that forward defense (fighting the Germans in France) was preferable to allowing the Germans to solidify their positions there. The result was Dunkirk.

Nobody went to war in WWII JUST to liberate Poland...


35 posted on 09/24/2007 7:51:38 AM PDT by Philistone (Your existence as a non-believer offends the Prophet(MPBUH).)
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To: Elsie
...husband...

In Hillary's case, I think Bill is the 'wife'.   ;-)

36 posted on 09/24/2007 8:19:41 AM PDT by 6SJ7
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To: LexBaird

I see that now. A quick glance of online sources shows the United States had more military deaths than the United Kingdom, but fewer civilian deaths. Most countries involved in the war had a greater number of deaths per capita than we did, but we gave a lot of lives to end that war.

The total casualty count of WW2 is staggering, especially when you add the Axis powers.

We balk at 3800 deaths in Iraq. Germany lost 5 million soldiers, China had 15 million civilians killed. France had 212,000 soldiers killed (which is fewer than we lost, pretty interesting given that their country was overrun by the Germans and we had to take it back).


37 posted on 09/24/2007 8:21:31 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Philistone
Nobody went to war in WWII JUST to liberate Poland...

Least of all the Soviets.

38 posted on 09/24/2007 8:21:43 AM PDT by Charles Martel (The Tree of Liberty thirsts.)
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To: Charles Martel

They’d already “liberated” half of it in 1939 before Hitler got greedy. In fact, if Hitler had stopped there, we might still be living with the 3rd Reich.


39 posted on 09/24/2007 8:24:05 AM PDT by Philistone (Your existence as a non-believer offends the Prophet(MPBUH).)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Dan Gardner.

Small little man with a small little mind, in a small little cubicle, somewhere in Ottawa,

Fiercely typing away, on a spittle specked keyboard, about his rabid jealousy of, and hatred for, America and Americans.

Sad little fellow.

Pity him if you can.

40 posted on 09/24/2007 9:30:11 AM PDT by Col Freeper
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Thompson and his speechwriters know that a large swath of the American public believes the United States, alone in the world, fights wars to liberate oppressed people far away. America may occasionally make mistakes -- only very rarely, of course -- but it is always pure of heart.

The writer is a liar. Fred said neither of these things and most conservatives believe neither of these things. Fred said, and most conservatives believe, that America has done more for others' liberty and that America is usually relatively goodhearted.

41 posted on 09/24/2007 11:30:45 AM PDT by rogue yam
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
it is widely believed his smart and ambitious wife cajoled him into running.

Oh really? Widely believed by WHOM exactly? Sounds like someone is trying to start another negative rumor about Fred, in order for it to be lazily picked up by others.

42 posted on 09/24/2007 4:35:21 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: CharlesWayneCT
But what about the claim that more British died in the 2nd world war than Americans in all of our wars?

Those British didn't all die fighting for the freedom of folks other than themselves. Some died fighting the enemy that had attacked their homeland, and was threatening to invade it. Or they died in defense of the other members of the British Commonwealth. Thus, they were fighting for their own liberation. Other Britons died in the relentless bombing by the Nazis. It doesn't make their sacrifice unworthy, or ignoble in any way.

America was not in imminent danger of being invaded, as was England or other countries in Europe. We didn't have to go from island to island fighting the Japanese in order to make them leave our homeland. We did that to liberate the folks who had been conquered and enslaved by the Japanese. We crossed the Atlantic and did the same for all those countries that had been conquered by Hitler, and whose people were systematically being slaughtered by his troops. We didn't HAVE to do either of those things, but we did, and our soldiers died for others, rather than for themselves or their fellow Americans.

Fred wasn't trying to be triumphalist, just stating the fact that our military is not one of conquest for imperialist reasons, but of liberation.

43 posted on 09/24/2007 7:45:58 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: britemp
Don't confuse overall deaths with what Fred is saying. He's speaking specifically about soldiers who are there for no other reason than liberation of people who are not their countrymen.

The Soviets were defending their homeland, as were the Brits and the French. Yes, they went into Europe, sometimes outside their borders, but only because that's where the enemy happened to be. They were trying to vanquish Germany so it would no longer threaten them directly.

America wasn't sending her soldiers across the Atlantic ocean to fight to protect our homeland directly, because we weren't in danger of being invaded by Germany. We just went, as Allies, to help Britain, France, and the Soviets, push Germany back to defeat, and free those who had been, or were under threat of being, subjugated by the Third Reich.

44 posted on 09/24/2007 7:54:02 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ

I shouldn’t argue this point any more, but it would be wrong to say that our entrance into WW2 wasn’t at least in part because we decided finally that the war COULD hurt us directly. Until Pearl Harbor, we were staying out of the conflict because it didn’t effect us.

I say I shouldn’t argue because I agree with the general point made by Thompson — we as much as any other country do our part to make the world a safer place.

But we do so at least in part for selfish reasons. We don’t get involved in wars where we see no self-interest.


45 posted on 09/25/2007 10:56:16 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
We don’t get involved in wars where we see no self-interest.

Of course not, but we get into them for additional reasons as well, usually for the liberation of a particular people, or to stop the movement of forces that would deny freedom to people, not just our own.

46 posted on 09/25/2007 11:19:28 AM PDT by SuziQ
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