See You at the Pole (nationwide, students will pray Weds. at public school flagpole gatherings)

See You at the Pole web site ^

[joebuck]

"A prayer does not establish a religion."

Religion should not be part of the analysis at all. The term used originally was "separation of church and state" came from a letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist college to assure them the first amendment would prohibit a national church like in England at the time. The libs have tried to pervert this as being a separation of "religion" or "faith" and state which was never, ever, contemplated by the drafters of the Constitution.

[do the dhue]

Yes, the court in the 1800 used the letter from Jefferson and this is where the commies take their stand. They do not take it from the Constitution itself. And I believe that the letter is even taken out of context.

Now, I do not think that we set up a theocracy, but we did set it up so the Government could not tell the Church what to do. And they set it up so Religion was not restricted. I think when you keep someone from praying you are prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

[do the dhue]

Hey Joe,

I grew up outside of Fort Wayne.

[joebuck]

Born and raised in Indy myself

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Brad’s Gramma]

Good Stuff BUMP!!!!!!

[governmentstillsucks]

I have an understanding that Washington prayed an hour before bedtime and an hour when he woke up.

It was our first and--in my mind--greatest president that issued and signed the proclamation of the "Day of Publick Thanksgiving and Prayer," true to the earlier Reformed Protestant colonists. He included in that statement that we should, "...[acknowledge] with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God." Washington was a man who did not take prayer or the Providence of God lightly, despite what some college PoliSci and History professors would like to believe--and then suggest to highly hormonal teenagers who don't know any better.

You'll enjoy this: Not too long--a few years--after Washington's prayer proclamation did John Adams make a far more urgent and religiously-themed statement, with references to humiliation, fasting and prayer. But they were predominantly secular Deists, you understand. ;)

I also think that the Founding Fathers knew that man is a sinner and to much power in the hands of the few was bad for the people. So, they created a division in powers and a checks and balance system.

Coming from a Protestant and thoroughly Calvinistic (or Reformed) background, it makes perfect sense. Contrast this with Communism, which is inherently atheistic.

I also believe that our forefathers wanted us to have inalienable rights (or God given rights) so that no man or Government could take away our God given rights. I believe that the commies in our Country today wish to remove that idea for their purpose. What is their purpose? Well, I am an American and I pray to my God and we solve my problems together. Remove God and I end up praying to the Government to take care of me from the cradle to the grave.

Even a cynic could understand the appeal of God-given rights. It takes a cynic and a strategist to devise a way to get around the concept, and here the real divide becomes clear: Absolute, God-given rights vs. atheistic, mutable, man-made systems.

[governmentstillsucks]

Yes, the court in the 1800 used the letter from Jefferson and this is where the commies take their stand. They do not take it from the Constitution itself. And I believe that the letter is even taken out of context.

No...The former Klansman and Supreme Court Justice, Hugo Black (an FDR nominee), was the first to cite Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association with regard to a legal "separation of Church and State." True, James Madison himself did write about a separation of church and state, the Court did rule in favor of the Roman Catholic Church in Bradfield v. Roberts. I don't think Madison's concept of separation is in line with the ACLU's. This is where common sense and idiocy part ways forever.

Now, I do not think that we set up a theocracy, but we did set it up so the Government could not tell the Church what to do. And they set it up so Religion was not restricted. I think when you keep someone from praying you are prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Jefferson's remarks to the Danbury Baptists were aimed at more theocratic elements in state governments, particularly Connecticut, which was largely Congregationalist. Many have read the famous and infamous 1802 Danbury letter, but do they know what inspired Jefferson's response?

Madison and Jefferson were both correct in fearing a state-church merger, or a "religious test," as could be found in some state governments. They, and the Supreme Court of the U.S. in 1899, did not have in mind excluding all displays of religion on government property, so much as they worried about the financial assistance, and apparent endorsement, of one sect above all others.

[governmentstillsucks]

“Roman Catholic hospital” in place of “Roman Catholic Church.”

[do the dhue]

Thanks for another great post. I guess I think it is great because I see it your way. Our Founding Fathers were not deist or atheist. And you would think that if you were atheist that you would still want God given rights and not man given rights.

I also have another thing to add: As I mentioned, I believe it to be true that Washington prayed an hour before and after bed time. IF a man is a deist (one who believes God created the universe but does not control or effect it), then why would a person pray? What would they pray for? I call myself a Christian and I don’t spend that much time praying. Well, why would a deist pray to a God who does not control the universe two hours every day? There is no way our Founding Fathers were deist or atheist.

And it just hit me, why would atheist or deist ensure that there was inalienable (God given) rights? Deist don't believe God does not control the universe and atheist don't believe in a God at all.

[do the dhue]

Deist don't believe God does not control the universe and atheist don't believe in a God at all.

My bad, shoulda said:
Deist believe God does not control the universe and atheist don't believe in a God at all.

[governmentstillsucks]

I also have another thing to add: As I mentioned, I believe it to be true that Washington prayed an hour before and after bed time. IF a man is a deist (one who believes God created the universe but does not control or effect it), then why would a person pray? What would they pray for? I call myself a Christian and I don’t spend that much time praying. Well, why would a deist pray to a God who does not control the universe two hours every day? There is no way our Founding Fathers were deist or atheist.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, a Deist in the historical context of the Revolutionary War period is not the same as today's deist, which holds something called "God" basically as a cosmological place marker. Have you read David McCullough's, "1776?" Pretending I don't know what I do, McCullough's fairly well-researched and accurate portrayal of General George Washington doesn't strike me as that of a relatively noncommittal deist.

And it just hit me, why would atheist or deist ensure that there was inalienable (God given) rights? Deist don't believe God does not control the universe and atheist don't believe in a God at all.

You are correct: there is no point in prayer for a deist; and on a deeper level, if God does is not capable of intervening in the most fundamental natural processes, what good is prayer?

You've brought to mind an old joke that a very white and very American Buddhist guru told me years ago: He said that I shouldn't worry how badly I pray or meditate, because no one's listening anyway.

[do the dhue]

Thanks for the correction. (that is one of the reason I like FR, you get corrected and that is a good thing) I was thinkging Danbury was efferenced during the debate in 1800s.

And I concur with this:

did not have in mind excluding all displays of religion on government property, so much as they worried about the financial assistance, and apparent endorsement, of one sect above all others.

Allow me to go here. The below is from the Danbury letter:

Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

In the letter Jefferson is talking about the 1st Amendment. As a Christian, I believe that the first gift God gave man is free will. Who I am and who is the Government to come up to any individual and tell them they have to attend the Glory Bound Bible Thumping Church every Sunday. I think our Natural Rights could be free will. A Government that would establish a religion would also remove man's free will. Reading to much into it?

[do the dhue]

You've brought to mind an old joke that a very white and very American Buddhist guru told me years ago: He said that I shouldn't worry how badly I pray or meditate, because no one's listening anyway.

And I have a joke for him. If he is right, I am willing to pay for it. If I am right, he is going to hear about it.

OK, it aint that funny. I'll work on it. :-)

[governmentstillsucks]

A Government that would establish a religion would also remove man's free will. Reading to much into it?

No, not at all. Imagine Christians living in Nero's Rome. The government--albeit, an autocratic one--found it necessary to use those believers as human torches and scapegoats. This is a government not establishing a religion, but condemning minority sects.

A better example of government establishing religion would be The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Enough said, right?

[do the dhue]

A better example of government establishing religion would be The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Enough said, right? Yep, theocracy

[eyedigress]

Most of my paperwork up until the 90's ended with "In the Year of our Lord" You are right, the Constitution limits Government, not people. I wish folks would realize that.

[do the dhue]

I wish folks would realize that.

HEAR HEAR!! It shouldn't even be debated.

[governmentstillsucks]

Yep, theocracy.

Which isn't to say that we were all wrong under the Holy Roman Empire--but you'll be hard-pressed to find a notion of a democratic federal republic in those days. Theocracy might be appealing, but as you noted in an earlier post, we're dealing with sinners, regardless of how powerful they are. The Fall was, and is, the great equalizer, which I believe is behind our distinctly anti-government American Creed, to paraphrase Samuel Huntington.

[governmentstillsucks]

Most of my paperwork up until the 90's ended with "In the Year of our Lord" You are right, the Constitution limits Government, not people.

What's key is understanding the differences between rights and liberties.