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US Army Sniper NOT Guilty of Murder
Newsday ^ | Septemeber 28, 2007 | KATARINA KRATOVAC

Posted on 09/28/2007 4:56:37 AM PDT by Paige

BAGHDAD - A military panel Friday acquitted U.S. Army Spc. Jorge G. Sandoval on charges he killed two unarmed Iraqis, but it convicted him of planting evidence on one of the men in attempt to cover up the shooting. Sandoval, 22, of Laredo, Texas, had faced five charges in the April and May deaths of two unidentified men. He was found not guilty of the two murder charges, but the panel decided he had placed a detonation wire on one of the bodies to make it look as if the man was an insurgent.

(Excerpt) Read more at newsday.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: courtmartial; iraq; middleeast; military; ruling; sandoval; snipers; terrorist
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1 posted on 09/28/2007 4:56:40 AM PDT by Paige
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To: Paige

Good, I’m sorry he had to go through this ordeal. It would have been more useful to have him over there killing insurgents.


2 posted on 09/28/2007 5:01:27 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: xzins

PING to something relevant to our conversation on the other thread.


3 posted on 09/28/2007 5:02:26 AM PDT by Old Sarge (This tagline in memory of FReeper 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub)
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To: Paige

Sorry I missed the part where they say he placed the wire on them. It sucks that we are treating our troops this way.


4 posted on 09/28/2007 5:02:47 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: Paige

How’s it go? It’s not the crime, it’s the coverup.


5 posted on 09/28/2007 5:04:41 AM PDT by PurpleMan
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To: brityank; jazusamo; Girlene; lilycicero; bigheadfred

Ping. Awaiting news regarding Sgts. Vela and Hensley.


6 posted on 09/28/2007 5:07:17 AM PDT by RedRover (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: PurpleMan

Sad state of affairs when our brave men have to “plant” stuff in order to “cover up” their job. Seems to me they are more afraid of the courts then the enemy.


7 posted on 09/28/2007 5:08:01 AM PDT by Long Island Pete
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To: Paige
but the panel decided he had placed a detonation wire on one of the bodies to make it look as if the man was an insurgent.

Now wait - I seem to recall in a story a short while back, that on of the big questions in this case was if "baiting" possible insurgents in using various items they would be looking for (article specifically mentioned detonation wire).

Now this fellow has been convicted of planting such on one of his targets... I am confused. Somewhere - there is either a dead fish, or reporting has been rather screwed up (or both).

8 posted on 09/28/2007 5:08:11 AM PDT by TheBattman (I've got TWO QUESTIONS for you....)
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To: Long Island Pete

“Seems to me they are more afraid of the courts then the enemy.”

Not surprising since the lawyers are writing the ROE’s.


9 posted on 09/28/2007 5:10:08 AM PDT by PurpleMan
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To: xzins; Diogenesis; RedRover; Girlene; jazusamo; brityank; P-Marlowe; SuziQ; Bulldawg Fan; ...

Update Ping from the earlier discussion this week.


10 posted on 09/28/2007 5:11:53 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: RedRover

Do you ever sleep? No word yet, will let you know, but you might know before I do.


11 posted on 09/28/2007 5:12:46 AM PDT by bigheadfred (And there I see the Line of My Forefathers)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner; RedRover

Thanks for the ping, Virginia Ridgerunner. Not guilty of two premeditated murders, but guilty of planting evidence? Strange thing to find him guilty for. He and his family must be quite relieved.


12 posted on 09/28/2007 5:25:49 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: Old Sarge; Long Island Pete; RedRover; Paige; driftdiver; PurpleMan; Virginia Ridgerunner; ...
Sad state of affairs when our brave men have to “plant” stuff in order to “cover up” their job. Seems to me they are more afraid of the courts then the enemy.

LI Pete nails this one! Bullseye.

The article says that Sandoval was convicted of planting evidence "to make it look as if the man was an insurgent."

He was planting evidence because of the prosecution of our troops by our side.

My GUESS: Every time there's a dead Iraqi, the family & locals turn it in to the Iraqi & American authorities. If the death appears to have been caused by any type of weapon the US uses, they turn it over to the investigators. I'd say it's automatic.

The investigators get to ask any command if any of their troops were in the vicinity.

Here we have the bizarre going on: our command sends our guys out to watch for suspected insurgents to shadow and shoot. They all know there will be an investigation, and that the troops are in jeopardy of prosecution.

This all raises the question: "What are the ROEs for a sniper when they are sent on a mission?"

a. Shoot on sight?
b. Shoot if you see them doing something wrong?
c. Shoot if you think they're doing something wrong?

Do the ROEs change from mission to mission for snipers? Who vetts these missions?

Would you want your young 18-24 year old, even if he is a sergeant, put in the middle of this crock!?

13 posted on 09/28/2007 5:36:32 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: TheBattman

” Now wait - I seem to recall in a story a short while back, that on of the big questions in this case was if “baiting” possible insurgents in using various items they would be looking for (article specifically mentioned detonation wire). “

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1902905/posts


14 posted on 09/28/2007 5:48:50 AM PDT by sure_fine ( " not one to over kill the thought process " )
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To: xzins

“Do the ROEs change from mission to mission for snipers? Who vetts these missions?”

If it works then the Dems will seek to stop it. From what I’ve heard the snipers have been very effective over there. The rampant prosecutions have affected everyone from the front line solder/marine to the commander.

Its a crying shame


15 posted on 09/28/2007 5:50:48 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: Long Island Pete
Sad state of affairs when our brave men have to “plant” stuff in order to “cover up” their job. Seems to me they are more afraid of the courts then the enemy.

The enemy (al Qaeda and other Islamist terrorist groups) have become very adept at playing the Western media and politicians (US, UN, Euro, etc.). They have also become very adept at using our own legal system (and lawyers) against us.

Their tactics are not much different from the tactics previously used by the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons. They have learned that they can use PC to whittle away at the US military efforts and the US public will.
16 posted on 09/28/2007 5:54:48 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: driftdiver; RedRover; Girlene
The rampant prosecutions have affected everyone from the front line solder/marine to the commander.

It's not just careers they're worried about either. It's years and years in prison -- just for doing their job.

Sandoval might be "not guilty" of murder, but planting evidence is a serious crime, and I'll bet the maxium is still years in prison.

17 posted on 09/28/2007 6:01:28 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; RedRover; Girlene; bigheadfred
Seems we are now fighting under ROA instead of ROE.

 

 

Rules Of Avoidance !!

18 posted on 09/28/2007 6:03:11 AM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional !!)
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To: xzins

“My GUESS: Every time there’s a dead Iraqi, the family & locals turn it in to the Iraqi & American authorities. If the death appears to have been caused by any type of weapon the US uses, they turn it over to the investigators. I’d say it’s automatic.”

My guess is that your guess is a good one. Don’t forget that the US government pays the family $2500 for every noncombatant killed by our forces. So we not only have hot and cold running JAGS tripping all over themselves to make legal cases, we have also incentivized the locals to bring charges against our troops. The whole situation is unconscionable.


19 posted on 09/28/2007 6:03:47 AM PDT by LadyNavyVet
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To: xzins
Would you want your young 18-24 year old, even if he is a sergeant, put in the middle of this crock!?

NO! And even at more than twice their age, I wouldn't want to be there myself. I've been through too much "Catch-22" as is ...

I won't say what I think should be done with the JAGs.

I don't want to get banned.

20 posted on 09/28/2007 6:04:37 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: xzins
This all raises the question: "What are the ROEs for a sniper when they are sent on a mission?"

a. Shoot on sight?
b. Shoot if you see them doing something wrong?
c. Shoot if you think they're doing something wrong?

d: Shoot after receiving permission from the courts after the suspected target has been informed of his rights, allowed legal counsel, allowed access to CAIR and Red Crescent, allowed to see his wife and kids one more time...

21 posted on 09/28/2007 6:06:58 AM PDT by weegee (NO THIRD TERM. America does not need another unconstitutional Clinton co-presidency.)
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To: xzins

“Sandoval might be “not guilty” of murder, but planting evidence is a serious crime, and I’ll bet the maxium is still years in prison”

You’re probably right but I don’t see how he planted evidence. Evidence of what? IF he planted the cord then at most it should be waste of govt materials. They knew the guy was an enemy so how can he be guilty of planting evidence proving he was an enemy?

WHY are we doing this to our troops. Lets do this to the lawyers who’ve forced us into this position instead.


22 posted on 09/28/2007 6:07:43 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: xzins
This all raises the question: "What are the ROEs for a sniper when they are sent on a mission?"

a. Shoot on sight?
b. Shoot if you see them doing something wrong?
c. Shoot if you think they're doing something wrong?


if the dems had their way?
d. glass suspect, ensure that suspect is insurgent known by name to at least three CO's, walk down to suspect, photograph suspect, make copies of identification of suspect, submit request to terminate suspect in triplicate, wait 4-6 weeks for processing, continue to watch suspect, never letting him leave your sight, note all insurgent activities and keep accurate notes accompanied by photos and graphs. if suspect at anytime is not within sight, process must begin again. Once approval is given, hold suspect in crosshairs until suspect engages in activies directly causing loss of life of women, children or gays.
shoot to wound.
23 posted on 09/28/2007 6:07:56 AM PDT by absolootezer0 (stop repeat offenders- don't re-elect them!)
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To: brityank

The Shadow Government that opposes this war fights their battles in the State Department, the CIA, the Justice Department...

They’ve politicized the war and have seen to it that they will not respect the sitting administration.


24 posted on 09/28/2007 6:08:47 AM PDT by weegee (NO THIRD TERM. America does not need another unconstitutional Clinton co-presidency.)
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To: Paige

whew


25 posted on 09/28/2007 6:09:14 AM PDT by RDTF (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, but Democrats believe every day is April 15th. - Reagan)
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To: Long Island Pete
Sad state of affairs when our brave men have to “plant” stuff in order to “cover up” their job. Seems to me they are more afraid of the courts then the enemy.

You got it - JAGs have some of our guys second and triple guessing themselves....constantly. We need Commands to start standing up and backing their men down range...come hell or high water (when appropriate). If they had the stones to do such....JAGs would be put back in their place.

26 posted on 09/28/2007 6:09:23 AM PDT by SevenMinusOne
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To: xzins
My GUESS: Every time there's a dead Iraqi, the family & locals turn it in to the Iraqi & American authorities. If the death appears to have been caused by any type of weapon the US uses, they turn it over to the investigators. I'd say it's automatic.

I'm guessing you are right.

These investigations have to stop. We are fighting a war, not policing the streets of Detroit. When are they going to get that?

Would you want your young 18-24 year old, even if he is a sergeant, put in the middle of this crock!?

No.

27 posted on 09/28/2007 6:11:32 AM PDT by Shelayne (NO running or relenting until the problem has been dealt with-decisively,systematically,permanently.)
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To: brityank
Rules Of Avoidance !!

It won't be long before the military will be mandated to replace weaponry/guns with tasers and pepper spray, so as not to inflict any permanent damage to the enemy.


[/s, I hope.]
28 posted on 09/28/2007 6:26:05 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: TomGuy

It’s sad that comments here so frivilously disregard the Rules of Engagement and associated military codes. Shooting unarmed, non-threatening civilians is dishonorable from a moral and military perspective.

To support men like this is a slap in the face to the men and women who are serving honorably and to the high standards of the United States armed services in Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the incredible pressure and danger upon them.

Shame on you, comment section.


29 posted on 09/28/2007 6:38:37 AM PDT by SomeReasonableDude (Back it up.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Put Hillary in the situation and see how she reacts.


30 posted on 09/28/2007 6:41:47 AM PDT by PurpleMan
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To: Paige
And Murtha is already publicly apologizing? - Yes?
31 posted on 09/28/2007 6:45:00 AM PDT by bill1952 (The 10 most important words for change: "If it is to be, it is up to me")
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To: SomeReasonableDude
My comment was sarcasm, thus the [/s] indicator.

But, at the rate things are going, who knows.

There were reports, after the Abu Grahib scandal, that guards’ ammo was changed from real to rubber bullets.

[Imagine guarding the worst of the worst terrorists and being only armed with rubber bullets. Our military guards were.]

32 posted on 09/28/2007 6:46:49 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: driftdiver
They knew the guy was an enemy so how can he be guilty of planting evidence proving he was an enemy?

I agree. The conviction of planting evidence doesn't make sense to me if he's not guilty of premeditated murder. It appears the panel didn't want to second guess him on whether the killings were valid or not, but did think he was guilty of something so found him guilty of the least charge. Does anybody know what article of the UCMJ would cover planting evidence?
33 posted on 09/28/2007 6:46:58 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: PurpleMan
I don't think I'll be commenting on my opinion of what should be done to the Hildebeeste, either ...

save to say that I DON'T want her to be killed. I want her to live to a ripe old age and die a natural death surrounded by her friends. If any. Otherwise, she becomes a "martyr" to the anti-American, communist, islamist left.

34 posted on 09/28/2007 6:48:28 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: SomeReasonableDude; RedRover; Old Sarge
Shame on you, comment section.

YOU obviously don't know the case.

You tell us.....what are the ROEs for SNIPERS in Iraq?

You tell us.....what are Sgt Hensley's comments on these episodes?

You tell us....was one of the shootings against a man who had just been witnessed running from an attack on Americans?

You tell us....were these men taught to "bait" targets?

35 posted on 09/28/2007 6:50:41 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: SomeReasonableDude

“To support men like this is a slap in the face to the men and women who are serving honorably and to the high standards of the United States armed services in Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the incredible pressure and danger upon them.”

These men are ordered to go out and agressively target the enemy. The enemy does not wear a uniform, it hides behind children and women. It even will wear womens clothes in a culture that makes that practice extremely degrading. This enemy will turn children into suicide bombers; it has killed dozens of kids to kill 1 or 2 Americans.

The dead guy was a known enemy. The soldier may have placed the demo cord there but if he did it does not change that it was a righteous shoot. How is it shameful to kill your enemy?


36 posted on 09/28/2007 7:00:10 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: Paige

That he was ever charged in the first place is a blot on the service and a disgrace to this nation. Heads need to roll in the Pentagon. Bush needs to clear out the Clintonista scum amongst the bureaucracy once and for all (unless he agrees with them?)


37 posted on 09/28/2007 7:04:24 AM PDT by montag813
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To: weegee

It is NONE of the above that are prosecuting these soldiers/Marines.

It is the DoD, and the JAG prosecuting these cases. Bush and his groupies have done more to handcuff our troops by NOT letting us take the gloves off completely than anyone else.


38 posted on 09/28/2007 7:27:02 AM PDT by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascists inside and outside our borders, now ACT LIKE IT!)
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To: SomeReasonableDude
Shame on you, comment section.

The shame is on people like you who do not give our troops the benefit of the doubt, who pronounce them guilty even when military courts do not.

Who in this case was found guilty of "shooting unarmed, non-threatening civilians"?

No one.

So why did you assert something that wasn't true?

39 posted on 09/28/2007 7:29:34 AM PDT by RedRover (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: Girlene; xzins; brityank; lilycicero
More details are about the process in the New York Times...

Specialist Sandoval’s court-martial on murder charges began here on Wednesday, and is scheduled to conclude Friday. Sergeant Hensley’s court-martial on murder charges is scheduled to begin here Oct. 22.

An evidentiary hearing for Sergeant Vela, who took the stand on Thursday in the Sandoval court-martial after being granted immunity from incriminating himself in that case, is expected later this year.

Sergeant Murphy has been investigated for a killing of another Iraqi man on April 7. Prosecutors have warned two more battalion members that they are also suspected of committing possible crimes as accomplices in the murder cases.

Struggling to explain why a highly trained Army sniper unit, renowned for its lethal economy of patience and discipline, would bog down under a cloud of murder investigations, some soldiers in interviews faulted commanders for pushing units to keep their kill counts high.

Others pointed toward the outsized influence on the unit by Sergeant Hensley, who, according to other soldiers’ testimony, was dealing with two recent deaths: that of a close friend, killed in a roadside bomb, and also the suicide of his girlfriend back home.

"Staff Sgt. Hensley just continued to drive on," said Specialist Joshua Lee Michaud, in testimony at the July hearing about the sergeant’s toughness. “Both of them didn’t even faze him."

40 posted on 09/28/2007 7:37:32 AM PDT by RedRover (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: RedRover

“Staff Sgt. Hensley just continued to drive on,” said Specialist Joshua Lee Michaud, in testimony at the July hearing about the sergeant’s toughness. “Both of them didn’t even faze him.”

IF true then his commander should have taken him off duty. It would also put him in a mental state where a civilian court would find him mentally unstable.

But I don’t buy it. They always seem to find one guy who is a loser to trump up charges on his unit. Or they trump up charges on one guy and beat him into submission so he starts telling them what they want to hear.

This is a war. Take the gloves off and it will be over sooner. War is not a civilized activity which is why its a last resort.


41 posted on 09/28/2007 7:41:24 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: Paige
A military panel Friday acquitted U.S. Army Spc. Jorge G. Sandoval on charges he killed two unarmed Iraqis, but it convicted him of planting evidence on one of the men in attempt to cover up the shooting.

Okay, I don't quite understand how it's even possible for a sniper to "plant" evidence on a target he has just taken out. Sniper engaged at say 600 meters. That's a little bit over seven football fields away and not a difficult shot for most snipers...certainly not an overly long shot. How does he get to the body to plant his evidence? It will take a right LONG stroll to even reach the scene of the kill and that means it's probably thru hostile territory and full of folks looking to find and specifically kill....HIM. Okay, say it's not a 600 meter shot. Say it's only 100 meters. The sniper still has to get to ground level and find a way to get to the target while avoiding: Target's buddies, the inevitable friendly fire that is bound to be in the air and also the equally inevitable UN-friendly outgoing fire! I don't think it's even possible. Yet a bunch of lawyers seem to have found that this is the case. I'd like to see exactly how they arrived at this conclusion.

42 posted on 09/28/2007 7:53:04 AM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: weegee
Don't shoot until you thoroughly explain the situation to your CO, who then explains it to JAG,
who then reads the ROE, who then explains it it to his CO,
who then says Shoot or stand down.
This crap has got to stop. Just shoot them.
If you've set a trap, and they take the bait, SHOOT THEM!!!!!!!!!
43 posted on 09/28/2007 7:57:40 AM PDT by concretebob (If liberals aren't traitors, their only defense at this point is they are incredibly stupid)
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To: Paige

This reminds me of the movie 300. The politicians at home doing nothing but obstructing the path of our brave soldiers and getting in bed with terrorists.


44 posted on 09/28/2007 8:24:30 AM PDT by Ancient Drive
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To: RedRover

Thanks, Red. Interesting.


45 posted on 09/28/2007 8:28:09 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: SomeReasonableDude

Please do us all a favor and read up on the information discussed before chiming in with your indignant outrage. Otherwise you just sound plain silly.


46 posted on 09/28/2007 8:39:51 AM PDT by Chickenhawk Warmonger (The Media Lied & Soldiers Died)
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To: All

Don’t hurt the Muslims war.


47 posted on 09/28/2007 8:44:12 AM PDT by Dubya (Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me)
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To: driftdiver

It all boils down to this:

We either are fighting a war, or we are not. By the current attitude in our own government, it appears that we are not...


48 posted on 09/28/2007 8:46:35 AM PDT by TheBattman (I've got TWO QUESTIONS for you....)
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To: RedRover; Virginia Ridgerunner

Good news he was acquitted of the murder charge but CS they found him guilty of planting evidence. Jags need to be tossed out of the war zone and stopped from writing the ROE.


49 posted on 09/28/2007 9:22:06 AM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: TomGuy

“Their tactics are not much different from the tactics previously used by the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons. They have learned that they can use PC to whittle away at the US military efforts and the US public will.”

Just gotta wonder if Jesse or Al have started a ‘Shakedown Training Camp’ for AlQaeda yet...I’m sure Dickie Durbin would be glad to be a guest speaker.


50 posted on 09/28/2007 9:27:22 AM PDT by CRBDeuce (an armed society is a polite society)
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