He's a British Jew who says his name is derived from the town name of Oppenheim, Germany.
Posted on 09/28/2007 7:42:35 AM PDT by blam
Myths of British ancestry
October 2006
Stephen Oppenheimer
Everything you know about British and Irish ancestry is wrong. Our ancestors were Basques, not Celts. The Celts were not wiped out by the Anglo-Saxons, in fact neither had much impact on the genetic stock of these islands
The fact that the British and the Irish both live on islands gives them a misleading sense of security about their unique historical identities. But do we really know who we are, where we come from and what defines the nature of our genetic and cultural heritage? Who are and were the Scots, the Welsh, the Irish and the English? And did the English really crush a glorious Celtic heritage?
Everyone has heard of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. And most of us are familiar with the idea that the English are descended from Anglo-Saxons, who invaded eastern England after the Romans left, while most of the people in the rest of the British Isles derive from indigenous Celtic ancestors with a sprinkling of Viking blood around the fringes.
Yet there is no agreement among historians or archaeologists on the meaning of the words "Celtic" or "Anglo-Saxon." What is more, new evidence from genetic analysis (see note below) indicates that the Anglo-Saxons and Celts, to the extent that they can be defined genetically, were both small immigrant minorities. Neither group had much more impact on the British Isles gene pool than the Vikings, the Normans or, indeed, immigrants of the past 50 years.
The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands.
(Excerpt) Read more at prospect-magazine.co.uk ...
85% of the DNA of the original post Ice Age settlers to Britain is still there.
I am yDNA haplogroup R1b as are 90% of the Irish. I just discovered yesterday that if your DYS-390 component is 23 instead of 24...you're likely to be German-Scandanavian. I'm probably a Viking or Anglo-Saxon invader? Still an Atlantic Modal Haplotype I believe.
GGG Ping.
<>< Must read ><>
Interesting stuff. I wonder what they will say about the current invasion in 10,000 years?
This sad little lizard told me that he was a brontosaurus on his mother’s side.
I did not laugh; people who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them.
Humoring them costs nothing and adds to happiness in a world in which happiness is always in short supply.
LAZARUS LONG
O’ppenheimer, a grand old Irish name!
Genetics tells one story. Language patterns tell a different story.
Oxford’s Bryan Sykes, who invented the genetic population testing method, has written some interesting books on this subject, too. In “Blood of the Isles,” he wrote that neither Anglo-Saxons nor other population groups have much impact on the genetics of the inhabitants of the UK, except for Iberians, and that British ancestry can be traced back mainly to Spain. Fascinating information. I heartily recommend his “The Seven Daughters of Eve.”
Well, at least they’re not claiming to be descendants of a full blooded Cherokee Indian princess...............
He's a British Jew who says his name is derived from the town name of Oppenheim, Germany.
It is? How much Anglo-Saxon is left after the French invaded in 1066? It is rare to find the raw guttural, monosyllabic, Germanic words in modern English. He who rules get to set the what language is spoken.
I have to say that language patterns, while useful and interesting to study, are in a certain sense subjective. And anyone can learn any language, regardless of their DNA. The blood evidence, uncovered by the scientific method, is irrefutable.
Well, Buaidh no bas, anyway!
Forgot to say: great post, blam.
Bump for a later read. Someday I hope to do the DNA te$ting...right now I can’t. My late father (1st generation Irish) always said we were ‘Black Irish’ (no...not the Spanish Aramada tale, just darker hair/skin than your idea of Irish). Thanks for the post.
I recommend Syke's newest book too: Saxons, Vikings, and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland . A very good book and easy to read. Oppenheimer's is the better of the two though.
I thought the Romans left about 430, and the Saxons invaded when the collpase of the Pax Romanae gave them the opportunity. The Angles were there already at the start of the Roman occupation. Did not a Roman say, upon seeing their complexion and hair color, "Not Angles, but Angels?"
I can't say for sure, but I've heard that Winston Churchill's soundbite "We shall fight them on the beaches, we shall fight them in the fields, we shall fight them in the hills. We shall never surrender." Is composed 100% of words derived from Anglo-Saxon -- with one exception: surrender is derived from French.
Just finished that one a couple of months ago. All of his are excellent. For my birthday I am giving myself an analysis from his group at Oxford, figuring I can share it with my sister, at least! I will have to dip into Oppenheimer.
So we Irish can blame the Vikings for our drinking? No wonder they behaved so badly.
Yes. I used National Geographic: The Genographic Project
LOL! Good one, and so true.
You may get suprised like me. My mtDNA(female) is 'V'. A Sa'ami (Laplander)...we had no idea. I checked my dads mother and she is a 'U5a1a'...Scottish-Finnish and related to 9,000 year old Cheddar Man.
No. I didn't mean that. Very few of the British have 'Viking Blood.'
Which test would you recommend, Oppenheims’s or NG? Oppy has a lot of products and it’s hard to tell what to order. Any suggestions? My grandparents are from Ireland and probably Scotland. There’s some German in there, too.
Bryan Sykes, in his latest book (see post #16), says he can't find any DNA in the British Isles that could represent any 'Black Irish' or Picts.
This is true with virtually all invasions --especially with the European influx into the Americas over the past 500 years. We get the appearance of conquest and replacement, while the substance is assimilation.
Great post!
A French teacher in Canada, drew up English words and a French counterpart. Though not exact of course, there was a connection. The word "fume" or like that was applied to smoking. Fumes (cough cough) and so on.
There are even a tiny percentage of surviving Scandinavian names. The surname Bourne also used as a word. As you know, and I take the liberty of using your post, to add something, English evolved from old German and old French. Some latin thrown in.
Yes the French ruled and how. William the Conqueror was a bit of a "bastard". LOL
Actually the Oppenheimer clan testing http://www.ethnoancestry.com/oppenheimer.html is part of Ethnoancestry at http://www.ethnoancestry.com/index.htm
They are the folks with numerous tests. Oppy is just one of them.
>>It is rare to find the raw guttural, monosyllabic, Germanic words in modern English. He who rules get to set the what language is spoken.<<
Rare?!
“[T]he General Service List (GSL), listing the 2000 most frequent (and therefore most basic) English words, is made up by 50.98 percent of words of Germanic origin.” - The Origins of Euphemisms and Swear Words in the English Language, by Judith Huber
There are just too "surprising" results from these type of historical/genetic investigations for me to put much credence in these type of results. If it were occasionally a surprising result, it would be one thing. But there seem to be just too many counter-intuitive results for me to credit them. Britain is largely of *Basque* ancestry? At least it wasn't Finnish, Korean, or Mayan, I guess, but it still doesn't strike me as likely.
I saw a documentary on this that had an interesting take. It said that we often have two words in English for the same thing, one German, and one French, but that the French variant usually is subtly different, adding a richness of detail to the language that many other languages lack. For example, well to take yours, smoke and fume. Smoke means one thing, fume basically means the same but has completely different connotations.
I have both of Oppenheimer’s books and find them very enjoyable. Also Syke’s book.
I think when they say ‘Basque’ all they mean is that the British ancestors came out of the ‘Ice Age refuge’ in northwestern Spain, where they had lived for millenia when the British Isles were covered in ice. The area that is *now* Basque.
And Oppenheimer has theorized that English was always there in the British Isles, that it was an indigenous language from the time when Britain and the continent were joined.
That the eastern side of England always spoke some form of English, and the north and northwestern parts were always ‘Celtic’ of some sort.
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much to see in Prospect
I chose the NG because it was so broad based and extensive...I've read recently that they've already done 160,000 samples worldwide and presumably my data (I gave permission) will appear in future publications about their results. I believe NG only offers an analysis of 12 sites ($107.50) and I'm already wishing I had done more sites (deeper ancestry) which other organizations are offering but, they cost more.
A true story. Genealogy is my hobby, my passion. My boss used to think I was nuts. Even worst, just stupid for wasting my time. He was a self-made man and his grandfather had dumped his father into an orphanage; ancestry meant nothing. He has an unusual name and a then-unknown cousin reached him via internet. We got a history in the mail of his great-great grandfather who was the original settler to this country. I just about died laughing when I read it. Take out the dates and countries, and this colorful character sounded exactly like my boss. Actually, it was uncanny. He saw the humor, enjoyed the story, learned why his grandather had to give up custody of his father (he had TB) and never ribbed me again. Ancestry DOES count—even for the self-made.
This is the 'migration map' for the R1b haplogroup. (Cost me $107.50 bucks,lol)
Many times, rumor of “Black Irish” blood is code for interracial marriage, especially Indian/Caucasian marriage. I have rumors of Black Dutch in my family and it’s the same thing. I actually may have found an ancestor about the time of the American Revolution who was Indian. It’s still unconfirmed, but does indicate that those “rumors” may have been correct.
Yup. I'm going to post 'revisited' this afternoon, lol.
Ping!
For a supposed "hate site" there is something every day, which provokes discussion in the best way. One can never learn too much.
bookmark for later.
"My favourite piece of linguistic trivia is evidence of Norman pidgin surviving today in English words for live domestic animals and French ones for dead meat. Presumably, the Norman lord would ask his steward to arrange roasts of boeuf, porc and poulet, and the latter would round up cows, swine and hens from the Saxon serfs. A thousand years later, we now have beef, pork and poultry as meat on the butcher's tray and the Saxon animals still alive in the fields."
My mother, a Southern farm girl, would often say (when I was a child), 'I'm going to get a poulet for dinner tonight.' (That usually meant fried chicken for dinner)
read later.
The aristocracy spoke Norman-French up until Henry V, a different language than the general population. Henry V was the first Norman ruler who's primary language was English. Keep in mind, the "French" who took control of England were of mostly Germanic stock & the French they spoke was adopted by them after they gained control of a good chunk of "France".
It is rare to find the raw guttural, monosyllabic, Germanic words in modern English.
Monosyllabic? When is the last time you've read Beowulf in Old English?
He who rules get to set the what language is spoken.
You'd think, but it didn't actually work that way.
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