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Vatican book on Templars' demise
BBC ^ | October 5, 2007

Posted on 10/05/2007 1:44:55 PM PDT by NYer

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To: mamelukesabre

“His last words were, “Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us - God will avenge us.”

“The chilling irony of the conclusion of this story is that Jacques DeMolay’s final words did, in fact, come true. Pope Clement V died only a month later on April 20th (he is suspected of having cancer of the bowel) and Philip IV was killed while on a hunting trip on November 29th 1314. True to the claim both men did indeed die within the year of Jacques DeMolay’s own death.”

I think he got his revenge...


51 posted on 10/05/2007 2:52:55 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: There is no god named Allah, and Muhammed is a false prophet)
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To: WOSG

The pope at the time, Clement V, was a Frenchman, but there was only one pope. From this time until the 1370s the popes lived in Avignon. The Great Schism was later, after Gregory XI returned to Rome and died there and Urban VI was elected but antagonized his cardinals so they claimed to have elected him under duress and chose someone else to be pope. Urban VI and his successors in Rome are now regarded as the legitimate popes, and the rival popes who lived in Avignon after 1378 are considered antipopes. That situation lasted until about 1415.


52 posted on 10/05/2007 3:06:47 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: mamelukesabre

“If you read the article, it says the proof of their exoneration was misfiled and only just found”

I think they were found along side the FBI files and the Rose law firm billing records.

So many clerical erors, so little time.


53 posted on 10/05/2007 3:30:34 PM PDT by Carbonado
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To: blam; SunkenCiv

Possible ping!


54 posted on 10/05/2007 3:48:48 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

An ancestor of mine was in the order although I don’t think he was caught up with its demise.

We need them again.


55 posted on 10/05/2007 3:51:33 PM PDT by rbosque ("To educate a person in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." - Teddy Roosevelt)
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To: joebuck
DeMolay was buned on Fri. 13 which became the basis for the superstition of that day being bad luck.

I did not realize this; thanks for the posting.

56 posted on 10/05/2007 3:51:59 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Who has a dog in this fight? Freemasons for sure.

A story of this type will bring a flood of Freemasons to the fore. Especially, the Knights Templar Masons and the Order of DeMolay, after all their name is taken from the Demolay of this story.

The Roman Catholics and Freemasons have been crossways with each other for centuries over this.

No doubt, there will be many Masons posting on this claiming their hero has been vindicated. Trouble is, you’ll never know they are Masons. Most of them won’t identify themselves as such.


57 posted on 10/05/2007 3:52:44 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: Joe Boucher
Soooo, who does the movie?

Does it matter? They will skew it whatever way they so choose without separating fact from fantasy. Read the book for accuracy and skip the movie as fiction.

58 posted on 10/05/2007 3:54:15 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Thanks for the ping.


59 posted on 10/05/2007 3:54:45 PM PDT by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
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To: ELS
Thank you for the additonal research!

the new volume is "a previously unpublished and exclusive edition of the complete acts of the original hearing against the Knights Templar."

One can only imagine what else is buried in these archives.

60 posted on 10/05/2007 3:57:44 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
"The official who found the paper says it exonerates the knights entirely."

This is hardly surprising.

The persecution and massacre of the Knights Templar is one of history's most disgraceful episodes. King Philip IV of France ("Philip the Fair") is one of history's more corrupt and indecent mass murderers, and Clement V, perhaps unwittingly, served as his de facto accomplice.

Jacques de Molay declared his innocence and the innocence of the Templars as he burned, and he promised that he would meet Philip before God.

61 posted on 10/05/2007 3:58:45 PM PDT by Savage Beast ("History is not just cruel. It is witty." ~Charles Krauthammer)
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To: NYer
I’ll have to tell my friends and some of my family they don’t exist anymore

he he he

62 posted on 10/05/2007 4:02:18 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK (In everyday life there is more than meets the eye to reach the depths of truth we must DRAGTHEWATERS)
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To: NYer
Read Born in Blood by John J. Robinson. While researching the Peasants' Revolution in England, Robinson stumbled upon extensive evidence that the Knights Templar, under persecution by Clement V and Philip IV, went underground and remained so until the early 18th century, when they re-emerged as the Freemasons, that the Freemasons had no connection whatsoever with a Midieval trade guild or anything or the sort but used this as a cover for their true identity, viz. the Knights Templar, to avoid further persecution and annihilation.

If the Templars are in fact proven innocent and if the Freemasons can make a sufficiently sound case that they are in fact the Templars, Freemasons should consider appealing to the Vatican for the return of the property.

63 posted on 10/05/2007 4:13:18 PM PDT by Savage Beast ("History is not just cruel. It is witty." ~Charles Krauthammer)
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To: NYer
".... it exonerates the knights entirely."

Surprise, surprise, surprise..........NOT.

Wasn't the French King and Pope at the time who became jealous and fearful of the Knights Templar -- responsible for framing and persecuting them..

64 posted on 10/05/2007 4:14:01 PM PDT by river rat (Semper Fi - You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: vladimir998
.....at the orders of the French king...

Who was a Papal lackey much the same as Hezbollah is an Iranian lackey

65 posted on 10/05/2007 4:17:36 PM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Moveon is not us...... Moveon is the enemy)
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To: zot

Templar ping.


66 posted on 10/05/2007 4:25:01 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: bert

Templars have not been exterminated.


67 posted on 10/05/2007 4:41:37 PM PDT by Amadeo
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To: Amadeo

.....Templars have not been exterminated.....

I’ll bite. Where are they today?


68 posted on 10/05/2007 4:51:15 PM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Moveon is not us...... Moveon is the enemy)
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To: bert
Who was a Papal lackey much the same as Hezbollah is an Iranian lackey

Actually the Pope was a lackey of the French King.

69 posted on 10/05/2007 4:57:37 PM PDT by Hacksaw (Appalachian by the grace of God - Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: Red Badger
“When the King of France couldn’t pay back his loans, he decided to have them trumped up on heresy charges...”

Like the saying goes - when you owe enough money, YOU own the bank.

70 posted on 10/05/2007 5:04:51 PM PDT by decal (If at first you don't succeed, blame President Bush.)
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To: NYer

I wonder what other juicy morsels are to be found in the vatican’s archives. Unfortunately the Roman Catholic Church has done much wickedness in the name of Christ.


71 posted on 10/05/2007 5:18:18 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon
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To: NYer

I wonder what other juicy morsels are to be found in the vatican’s archives. Unfortunately the Roman Catholic Church has done much wickedness in the name of Christ.


72 posted on 10/05/2007 5:18:19 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon
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To: vladimir998

Oh come on !!! The Vatican could have stepped in but decided not to. They wanted the Templars gone as well.


73 posted on 10/05/2007 5:22:43 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
"Some have theorized that the Jedi Purge was based in part on the insidious destruction of the Knights Templar..."

I suspect you'd find a stronger parallel if you google "Satsuma Rebellion."


74 posted on 10/05/2007 5:30:07 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: mnehrling

I’ll wait for the paperback.


75 posted on 10/05/2007 5:40:56 PM PDT by Mountain Troll
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To: Savage Beast
The problem is the earliest Scottish Lodges were started in the early 15th century (the UGLE in early 18th century) while the Templars themselves where eliminated in the early 1307, a century earlier. One could say there was inspiration, just as there was inspiration from the Knights of Malta and the Knights of St. Andrew, but the direct connection would be hard to prove.
76 posted on 10/05/2007 5:44:31 PM PDT by mnehring ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!"- Jim Robinson, Sept, 30, 2007)
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To: Interesting Times

Thanks for the ping. I saw the heading, but didn’t read the article because I didn’t expect it to state, “The official who found the paper says it exonerates the knights entirely.” This exoneration is long overdue.


77 posted on 10/05/2007 5:55:34 PM PDT by zot
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To: mnehrling
A direct connection may be hard or even impossible to prove; however, it's possible that records long held secret are in existence. It would not be surprising if the Templars remained underground from the 14th to the 15th centuries--or even until the 21st.

I am not a Mason, though my father was.

If the Masons could prove that they are in fact the Templars, they should petition the Vatican not only for the return of the property but for restoration of the Order.

78 posted on 10/05/2007 6:07:44 PM PDT by Savage Beast ("History is not just cruel. It is witty." ~Charles Krauthammer)
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To: Savage Beast
There is the interesting connection that the “Jolly Roger” was also the flag of the Templar fleet and is found on many early Templar gravestones. It also was the nickname of the King of Cyprus who gave sanctuary to many Templars after the purging.

The theory is plausible, the 27th Degree of the Scottish Rite, the Order of Knight Commander of the Temple (within the Council of Kadosh) does often refer and uses similar regalia. The ritual within this degree is very tied to the historical allegory.

I still would be cautious to associate inspiration with actual connection. All of the Masonic degrees have inspiration of great achievements and allegory for the purpose of learning from history, making good men better. Saying a direct creation from the Templar would also put the same plausibility with the Knights of Malta and other heraldic orders that have inspired the Lodge.

79 posted on 10/05/2007 6:18:34 PM PDT by mnehring ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!"- Jim Robinson, Sept, 30, 2007)
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To: Savage Beast
There also is an actual Knight Templar degree within the York Rite, albeit, the York Rite is much younger and took much of its inspiration from the older Scottish Rite.

I don't know much about the York Rite degrees other than the obvious Blue Lodge degrees that must be obtained before growing in either the York or Scottish Rite.
80 posted on 10/05/2007 6:23:23 PM PDT by mnehring ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!"- Jim Robinson, Sept, 30, 2007)
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To: bert

You know far less about history than you think. If Philip was a papal lackey then please explain to me how Philip, THE LACKEY, got the gumption to kidnap Pope Boniface VIII?

Lackeys usually do not kidnap those they are supposedly lackeys to.

Explain that one, genius.


81 posted on 10/05/2007 6:23:41 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: ColdSteelTalon

You wrote:

“Oh come on !!! The Vatican could have stepped in but decided not to. They wanted the Templars gone as well.”

After the Templars were arrested (5,000 in one night by Philip’s police), and were tortured into confessions, yes, the Papacy wanted them gone - because they looked guilty as hell.

Can you produce one document that shows the papacy was plotting against the Templars BEFORE the rumors of their supposed debauchery began circulating? Did you even know that Clement V and Jacque de Molay were working toward the declaration of another crusade in 1307? Did you know that the pope was at first outraged that Philip moved against the Templars without even advising him they were under suspicion of committing crimes? Why not read one of Malcom Barber’s classics on the Templars? Read The New Knighthood, or perhaps, The Trial of the Templars. You might actually learn something.


82 posted on 10/05/2007 6:37:31 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: rbosque
We need them again.

Ordo Militiæ Templi

83 posted on 10/05/2007 6:44:21 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: vladimir998
You seem to know your history well my FRiend. Philip manipulated Clement. I honestly doubt that the Vatican had anything to gain by falsely accusing the Templars, albeit, I still believe that an official apology is long overdue.
84 posted on 10/05/2007 6:50:56 PM PDT by mnehring ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!"- Jim Robinson, Sept, 30, 2007)
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To: ELS
First I’ve heard of this order. They claim to be associated, but it seems, as officially the Templars are still excommunicated, this isn’t a Catholic order. The problem with the internet is that it is easy to find hundreds of so called orders that claim association, most of which probably sprung up in the past decade.
85 posted on 10/05/2007 6:54:09 PM PDT by mnehring ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!"- Jim Robinson, Sept, 30, 2007)
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To: vladimir998
More like, “Redundant”.

..and there I go complementing you in another post only to find this. Please don't blindly follow accusations. We saw what happened in 1307 when that happens.

86 posted on 10/05/2007 6:55:45 PM PDT by mnehring ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!"- Jim Robinson, Sept, 30, 2007)
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To: mnehrling

Thanks for the ping. Be interesting to see what the Vatican does. I will be surprised if they pronounce some sort of exoneration. The reason the church persecuted the Knights was their holding the teachings of Christ that the same church suppressed: karma and reincarnation, the indwelling Christ potential in all souls, and the evolving of the soul
over many lifetimes. These teachings of Jesus directly threaten the church’s power (and all its subsequent off-shoots), hence their suppression.


87 posted on 10/05/2007 7:13:41 PM PDT by Rennes Templar ("The future ain't what it used to be".........Yogi Berra)
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To: Red Badger
It was all over money.The Templars were the defacto bankers of the European royalty. When the King of France couldn’t pay back his loans, he decided to have them trumped up on heresy charges...............

But it was more than just money, either Charles' father or grandfather begged for help from the Knights to battle someone somewhere (I can't remember) and the Knights failed to help him. So for Charles it was also personal.

88 posted on 10/05/2007 7:20:22 PM PDT by JPJones
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To: mnehrling
The Ordo Militiae Templi do not claim to be directly descended from the original Knights Templar. It is a fully Catholic order with appropriate approval and canonical status from the Archbishop of Siena, Italy. Their rule is a slightly modified version of the rule written by St. Bernard for the original Knights. You can find more information at the Wikipedia entry they have started.

The problem with the internet is that it is easy to find hundreds of so called orders that claim association, most of which probably sprung up in the past decade.

That is certainly true. They spend a lot of time and energy debunking the false claims. Their organization began in 1979.

89 posted on 10/05/2007 7:21:38 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: JPJones

not Charles....Philip


90 posted on 10/05/2007 7:25:57 PM PDT by JPJones
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To: JPJones
That would be Philip II and you are correct, that was the request to take back Constantinople in the early 1200s. After the third Crusade, there was a desire to try to refocus on Constantinople instead of Jerusalem but most of the seasoned orders, as well as the Church was very cautious after what they just went through. The fourth Crusade that was mentioned by another poster. The Treaty of Le Goulet had just fallen apart and the tensions with England was high. No one at the time thought it was wise to attempt a new crusade with the Holy Roman Empire starting to break into internal squabbles again.

Another, possible conflict was Philip II's oppression of the Cathars which started about the same time. This mass genocide created some divisions among the dukedoms as the Cathars were wealthy and held large amounts of land.

91 posted on 10/05/2007 7:27:32 PM PDT by mnehring ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!"- Jim Robinson, Sept, 30, 2007)
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To: vladimir998
Vladimir, what do you make of this from the text:

“However, according to Prof Frale, study of the document shows that the knights were not heretics as had been believed for 700 years.

In fact she says “the Pope was obliged to ask for pardons from the knights... the document we have found absolves them”. “

Why would the Pope have asked for the Templars to pardon him?

92 posted on 10/05/2007 7:51:48 PM PDT by ConservativeMind
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To: NYer

Does the parchment disclose the location of the Holy Grail?


93 posted on 10/05/2007 7:57:12 PM PDT by PeoplesRepublicOfWA
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To: bert

Post 76 has a clue.


94 posted on 10/05/2007 8:04:06 PM PDT by Amadeo
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To: mnehrling

I don’t think an apology makes much sense - after all, there are no Templars to apologize to?


95 posted on 10/05/2007 8:38:21 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Savage Beast

It would be pretty hard to prove that a group “went underground” for 400 years and then re-emerged. (Where’s the documentation?) It’s much easier to believe that a group might claim a connection to an earlier group if they saw a chance of getting their assets (or for other reasons). But the European Union may have some kind of court that would find in favor of the Freemasons, just to inflict damages on the Vatican.


96 posted on 10/05/2007 8:50:58 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: ConservativeMind

You wrote:

“Why would the Pope have asked for the Templars to pardon him?”

Did he ask? All I saw was this: “In fact she says “the Pope was obliged to ask for pardons from the knights... the document we have found absolves them”.“

So according to Frale says he was obliged to? According to Frale or according to custom? As is typical for the drive by media, this article blows in terms of detail. I can’t tell from that what Frale means. There is this, however:

“However, according to Prof Frale, study of the document shows that the knights were not heretics as had been believed for 700 years.”

“In fact she says “the Pope was obliged to ask for pardons from the knights... the document we have found absolves them”.”

Thus, it may have been that the pope realized they were NOT heretics and was obliged to ask for pardon for their convictions earlier for heresy. That still doesn’t mean that Clement doubted that they were guilty of heresy or other crimes when those supposed crimes were first revealed to him. Also, it was common to ask pardon of those who were condemned. Executioners, for instance, often asked pardon of those they were going to execute.


97 posted on 10/05/2007 8:54:47 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Cvengr; mnehrling
I wonder what occultic Masonic rituals will be in store for us all?????

Oh, just your usual hedonistic revelry. You know, dancing nekkid around a bonfire...impregnating nubile virgins (or a reasonable facsimile thereof). Maybe stomp out a few crop circles before the night's over.

Nuthin' special.

98 posted on 10/05/2007 9:32:56 PM PDT by uglybiker (relaxing in a luxuriant cloud of quality, aromatic, pre-owned tobacco essence)
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To: Chode; TheLion; AxelPaulsenJr; jimt; Eric in the Ozarks; oldtimer; pt17; MeanWestTexan; hershey; ...
No doubt, there will be many Masons posting on this claiming their hero has been vindicated. Trouble is, you’ll never know they are Masons. Most of them won’t identify themselves as such.


MASONIC

LIST





Send uglybiker a FReepmail if you would like on/off The Masonic PING List
The List of Ping Lists

Stand and be counted, brothers!

99 posted on 10/05/2007 9:49:30 PM PDT by uglybiker (relaxing in a luxuriant cloud of quality, aromatic, pre-owned tobacco essence)
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To: Savage Beast; mnehrling; Verginius Rufus
If the Templars are in fact proven innocent and if the Freemasons can make a sufficiently sound case that they are in fact the Templars, Freemasons should consider appealing to the Vatican for the return of the property.

No Mason in his right mind should claim a direct connection with the Templars. The York Rite/Templar degrees of Freemasonry only emulate the ideals of which the Knights Templar were famous for.

And this Freemason will reserve any judgement of the Processus contra Templarios until he has had a chance to actually read it.

100 posted on 10/05/2007 9:56:17 PM PDT by uglybiker (relaxing in a luxuriant cloud of quality, aromatic, pre-owned tobacco essence)
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