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The "Not So Poor" 12 Year Old Who Rebutted Bush on SCHIP Veto
Multiple, Baltimore Sun ^ | 10-07-07 | self

Posted on 10/06/2007 10:42:57 PM PDT by icwhatudo

Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bush’s reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD.

Graeme was in a severe car accident three years ago, and received care paid for by the government program known as SCHIP-(State Children's Health Insurance Program)

"I was in a coma for a week and couldn't eat or stand up or even talk. My sister was even worse," Graeme wrote. "My parents work really hard and always make sure my sister and I have everything we need, but we can't afford private health insurance."

His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school prior to the accident meaning the family was able to come up with nearly $40,000 per year for tuition for these 2 grade schoolers. Confirmation both attended Park found here using edit-"find on this page"-Gemma. It will take you to an article in the schools newspaper about a fundraiser for Gemma class of 16, and Graeme class of 13.

Here are photos of the school's 44,000 square foot Wyman Arts Center: two galleries, an outdoor ampitheater, Meyerhoff Theater, Macks-Fidler Black Box Theater, practice rooms, rehearsal space, and ceramics, 3-D sculpture, woodworking, jewelry, painting, photography, digital graphics studios, recording studio, and keyboard lab.

In a Baltimore Sun article the family claims to be raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. "Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband, Halsey, is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work."

What the article does not mention is that Halsey Frost has owned his own company "Frostworks",since this marriage announcement in the NY Times in 1992 so he chooses to not give himself insurance. He also employed his wife as "bookkeeper and operations management" prior to her recent 2007 hire at the "medical publishing firm". As her employer, he apparently denied her health insurance as well.

His company, Frostworks, is located at 3701 E BALTIMORE ST. A building that was purchased for $160,000 in 1999. The buildings owner is listed as DIVERSIFIED INDUSTRIAL DESIGN CENTER, LLC whose mailing address is listed as 104 S Collington Ave which is the Frost's home. The commercial property he owns is also listed as the business address for another company called Reillys Designs which leads to the question of whether rental income is included in the above mentioned salary total

The current market value of their improved 3,040 SF home at 104 S Collington Ave is unknown but 113 S COLLINGTON AVE, also an end unit, sold for $485,000 this past March and it was only 2,060 SF. A photo taken in the family's kitchen shows what appears to be a recent remodeling job with granite counter tops and glass front cabinets

One has to wonder that if time and money can be found to remodel a home, send kids to exclusive private schools, purchase commercial property and run your own business... maybe money can be found for other things...maybe Dad should drop his woodworking hobby and get a real job that offers health insurance rather than making people like me (also with 4 kids in a 600sf smaller house and tuition $16,000 less per kid and no commercial property ownership) pay for it in my taxes.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; US: Maryland; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: democratparty; democrats; graemefrost; hillarycare; icwhatudo; kosiswatchingus; koskids; koskomrades; kossacks; lyingliars; nancypelosi; pajamahadeen; phoneypoorkids; phoneypoorpeople; phonyvictim; posterchild; propaganda; schip; schipoffools; scoundrels; sinkingschip; socialism; socializedmedicine; starkravingsocialism
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To: Political Junkie Too
In a related note, next week the dems are going to introduce us to 'little Billy' to discuss the plight of hunger in the US and how the evil Republicans are starving our children.
Little Billy


301 posted on 10/08/2007 3:01:59 PM PDT by mnehring ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!"- Jim Robinson, Sept, 30, 2007)
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To: Sybeck1
A quick claim deed?

Yes, I believe it was a "quit claim deed." (Don't remember where I saw that, can't find it in the record I posted but I did see it somewhere.)

I don't know what that means. Does it give you some clue as to what was going on there?

302 posted on 10/08/2007 3:04:47 PM PDT by shhrubbery! (Max Boot: Joe Wilson has sold more whoppers than Burger King)
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To: mnehrling
On the other hand, did you read the story the other day of the obese man who was shot several times outside a burger joint at 1:00AM, only to survive the wounds because he was so fat?

-PJ

303 posted on 10/08/2007 3:07:16 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (Repeal the 17th amendment -- it's the "Fairness Doctrine" for Congress!)
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To: OneCitizen
Does it look like Frost’s father was the one who bought the property from Muth in ‘90?

I too thought that might be the case, but didn't see any evidence for it in that particular record.

The elder Frosts could “gift” a lot of money every year to a family of 6. Would that money have to be reported on the SCHIP forms?

According to Rush today (if I understood him correctly), the SCHIP program as administered by Maryland requires almost no financial documentation from applicants!

(I hope I'm wrong on that last point -- someone please correct me if I am!)

304 posted on 10/08/2007 3:10:55 PM PDT by shhrubbery! (Max Boot: Joe Wilson has sold more whoppers than Burger King)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

Hmmm...no replies. I don’t need my inhaler to notice the penetrating smell of troll.


305 posted on 10/08/2007 3:15:11 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: holdonnow

Not sure if you saw this posting on Free Republic.......if true it’s sure interesting. Have you heard anything about this subject?


306 posted on 10/08/2007 3:16:34 PM PDT by Primetimedonna ( It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco. Charter member of the San Francisco Snowflakes)
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To: icwhatudo
Anyone see a pattern?

During John Kerry's nomination acceptance speech during the 2004 DNC, he trotted out his health insurance "poster child", Mary Ann Knowles. Kerry stated that she had to "keep working day after day right through her chemotherapy, no matter how sick she felt, because she was terrified of losing her family's health insurance". In reality, she had excellent coverage with 26 weeks of paid disability leave, but she chose to work through most of her treatment because her husband was unemployed.

Video of Kerry's Speech

Links to story on FR


Al Gore tried this same tactic in 2000 with Winifred Skinner.

Al Gore said, "It brings tears to your eyes. Here's this adorable, elderly woman out in Iowa who's so sick and so poor, that in order to pay for medicines she needs to stay alive, she has to scavenge in a local dump yard for cast-off tin cans."

"She gets a small pension," he said. "But in order to pay for her prescription drug benefits she has to go out seven days a week, several hours a day, picking up cans."

It turns out, as the statement was rectified, Mrs. Skinner goes out zero days a week, for zero hours a day, and that she was only speaking "in the name of" people she assumes must do this.

307 posted on 10/08/2007 3:18:10 PM PDT by DocRock (All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 ... Go ahead, look it up!)
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To: sauropod

All I know is they claim they pay a 1200/mo mortgage. that translates to a $200,000 debt. Maybe they took out a second mortgage, who knows.

It’s interesting to see that it is NOT their primary residence, which makes one ask, where IS their primary residence?

They must have rented it out, and possibly own more rental property somewhere. IF so, why isn’t this income reported as well as their 45k anual income claim?

As people can see, these people are not stupid, they are collage grads, and know something of bookeeping. Now, they may have legally hidden assets and income somewhere, and managed to reduce their visible income to 45k for IRS eyes to see. But that doesn’t give them the right to scam taxpayers for medical expenses they can well afford to pay.

Why didn’t he have medical insurance? Probably because he didn’t need it, so why pay priemiums when you have sufficient cash and assets that can be tapped if needed? Better to put that money somewhere else instead where it can grow.

I can tell you why I don’t have medical insurance. I don’t need any. I can pay for all my needs no matter what happens. It’s all tax deductible. All the funds can be taken out of investment savings which have grown over the years so that they act as my own private insurance plan. By using it for health costs, I avoid paying taxes on funds taken out of it, which I would otherwize have to pay.


308 posted on 10/08/2007 3:31:17 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: Political Junkie Too

Yeah, I posted the reporterette’s comments verbatim. I took her to task for not doing any investigating like asking the question, “ So do you pay for the private school tuition “?
Some reporter eh?


309 posted on 10/08/2007 3:40:58 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: There is no god named Allah, and Muhammed is a false prophet)
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To: icwhatudo; All

This story is getting some well-deserved legs. Good work, ICU.

Media Fail at Fact Checking on 12 Year Old Voice of SCHIP; Blogs(Free Republic) Pick Up Slack
NewsBusters ^ | October 7, 2007

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1908367/posts?page=1

Posted on 10/08/2007 3:28:15 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084


310 posted on 10/08/2007 3:47:41 PM PDT by Kevmo (We should withdraw from Iraq via Tehran. And Duncan Hunter is just the man to get that job done.)
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To: kcvl

ANY comments from Rahm Emanuel ring hollow with me.
The man is a paper suit.

The current source of funding for this program is expected to be tax raises on cigarettes. When they have totally outlawed smoking, then where is the money going to come from?
These are going to be ENTITLEMENTS for whoever thinks they should have a free ride. We are raising waaaaay too many kids today who think they are owed everything, including good grades that they didn’t earn.
Again, I am glad that I am not still in the position of hiring new employees. The crop to chose from today is getting thinner and thinner.


311 posted on 10/08/2007 3:54:12 PM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: Beckwith

Trust fund babies exactly


312 posted on 10/08/2007 3:56:39 PM PDT by petercooper ("Daisy-cutters trump a wiretap anytime." - Nicole Gelinas - 02-10-04)
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To: shhrubbery!

A quitclaim deed is normal in a friendly transaction, often intra-family in gift or partial gift situations. What it means is the seller offers no warranties on the property as to title, condition, etc. and merely deeds whatever right he or she had to the new owner. No one who is negotiating at arms-length is going to accept that kind of non-warranty since the owner could, in fact, be transferring absolutely nothing.


313 posted on 10/08/2007 4:01:04 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things.)
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To: shhrubbery!

A quitclaim deed is normal in a friendly transaction, often intra-family in gift or partial gift situations. What it means is the seller offers no warranties on the property as to title, condition, etc. and merely deeds whatever right he or she had to the new owner. No one who is negotiating at arms-length is going to accept that kind of non-warranty since the owner could, in fact, be transferring absolutely nothing.


314 posted on 10/08/2007 4:01:37 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things.)
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To: shhrubbery!

Couple things seem suspicious of it being the elder Frost who bought the property in 1990:
(1) The property was bought before the younger Frosts were married.
(2) the middle name “Halsey” isn’t on the 1990 record but it seems to be on every other identification of the younger Halsey, including his current ownership of the property.
I’m an equal opportunity skeptic of both parties but this story is amazing. If I was a partisan Democrat, I’d want to wring Nancy Pelosi’s neck (or whoever brought this family forward). Even the initial reporting on it plants some “I wonders” in your mind - that people with $45,000 income and 4 children aren’t trying harder to have a job with insurance and make more money. But then you’re just left wondering if the elder Frosts aren’t transferring tens of thousand a year to the younger Frosts and in other ways subsidizing the youngers since they’ve been married and in effect, the youngers have a lifestyle equal to people that John Edwards calls “the wealthy.”

What protection do the taxpayers have against people gaming this program?


315 posted on 10/08/2007 4:03:45 PM PDT by OneCitizen
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To: beaversmom

They look like a bunch of little John Denvers.


316 posted on 10/08/2007 4:03:56 PM PDT by FreeAtlanta (Search for Folding Project - Join FR Team 36120)
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To: shhrubbery!
Sometimes a quit-claim deed is used to remove a family member from the title.

-PJ

317 posted on 10/08/2007 4:17:29 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (Repeal the 17th amendment -- it's the "Fairness Doctrine" for Congress!)
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To: icwhatudo
Follow-up to my post 307 on this thread...

In 1994, Hillary Clinton used Kathy Bush when citing her case as an example of the high cost of medical care.



Later, investigators found her mother guilty of intentionally making her daughter sick and forcing her to undergo more than 40 needless surgeries, in what prosecutors called a case of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy.

Link

So my list now has Clinton, Gore and Kerry all using phony props for making their case for health care reform. You would think the dems would learn from their mistakes.
318 posted on 10/08/2007 4:27:22 PM PDT by DocRock (All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 ... Go ahead, look it up!)
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To: sierranighttide
The new healthcare plan would have helped me pay for services that could save my life.

SierraNightTide — I'm an Earthy, alternative, eccentric, and nomad rogue kind of women. Although I live in Los Angeles area, I feel more at home traveling. ...
Smelly, Breathless and Stupid is no way to roam through life, troll.

I think ... uhm, uhm ... there are more people that are bad than there are good. And, uhm ... if you're good, you'll live forever. And, if you're bad, you'll die when you die ... ; you'll die when you die ... ; you'll die when you die ...

I might have said a Hail Mary for you but I'm not Roman Catholic.

319 posted on 10/08/2007 4:33:31 PM PDT by higgmeister (In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: icwhatudo

Ignoring the big house, building and private school:

It’s not my fault that they popped out several kids.
It’s not my fault that they crashed their SUV.
It’s not my fault that able-bodied dad doesn’t work harder, smarter or a second job to provide the basic family needs.

A man used to make sure his family was provided for and not have to go sniveling to the goverment to provide what he cannot.

Why should I be required to have less for my family after I’ve WORKED many extra hours and went to college nights for it while some sniveling liberal cannot provide the basics for his?


320 posted on 10/08/2007 4:37:13 PM PDT by Proud2BeRight
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To: shhrubbery!; Sybeck1
A quit claim deed. It seems it's most often used to transfer property between family members

How much you want to bet that the father of the kids was working mostly off the books for the wealthy grandfather, fixing up the grandfather's properties for resale? Meanwhile the grandfather could pay for the grandkids education at the expensive private school

321 posted on 10/08/2007 4:38:35 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty)
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To: SauronOfMordor

I share your suspicion to some extent (although I think it more likely that the wealthy elders were just subsidizing the youngers so they didn’t need to be in the real world worrying about money). If we are correct, these folks are stinkers and pretty damned arrogant to think they could get away with being so high profile.


322 posted on 10/08/2007 4:45:08 PM PDT by OneCitizen
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To: caseinpoint; Sybeck1; Political Junkie Too; SauronOfMordor
Ok, thanks for your answers, and you're all right, it looks like the quit-claim deed was an in-family transfer. The "grantor" was Halsey Frost and the "grantees" were Halsey Frost and Bonnie Frost.

Also a re-fi was recorded on the same day in 2005 and I believe they took some equity out at the same time, around a year and a half post-accident iirc.

Now whether they used any of those $$$ to help pay medical expenses --or got to spend it all on other things, while we taxpayers footed their medical bills-- is a BIG question for taxpayers, imo.

It's OUR money, so it's OUR business.

(Btw, there are many, many documents on public record for that property --you have to register to use the site, however; and, it's timed and keeps bouncing you out if you have to leave the computer for a few minutes.)

323 posted on 10/08/2007 5:30:12 PM PDT by shhrubbery! (Max Boot: Joe Wilson has sold more whoppers than Burger King)
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To: icwhatudo

for the chilrun bump.
kudos to icwhatudo


324 posted on 10/08/2007 5:42:13 PM PDT by Dinah Lord (fighting the Islamofascist Jihad - one keystroke at a time...)
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To: kcvl
We are a solidly middle-class family of three. I am self-employed and cannot afford medical insurance. Mrs Chan works for our family business, which has no employee health insurance (too expensive). She and Baby Chan (whose birth I will likely be in debt for until I die) are covered under an old COBRA plan from my last day job, but when that's over we're all out in the cold, insurance-wise. (And Baby Chan's ob-gyn and maternity costs wouldn't have been covered by any private insurer anyway.) We make considerably more than $45,000 a year between us; even so, we have yet to find a health insurance plan that we can afford that will accept a family with a baby.

We do not live extravagantly. We own a solid, red-brick 1952 rambler of 1300 ft2 that we are renovating little by little, which is located in a old center-city neighborhood. I have a BMW (a 1984 318i, 200,000 miles±) and she drives our Toyota (a 1995 4Runner, 195,000± miles), both paid for, with full-coverage insurance (a necessity in a state where the roads are full of unlicensed, unisured illegal alien drivers.) We have no dogs, no Tivo, no boat, and no plasma TV. We live frugally.

And we still can't afford health insurance.

Something's wrong. I'm not saying that Hillary is right, and I'm not claiming that the Frost family deserves government-sponsored health care — but when a hardworking, frugal middle-class family such as we cannot find affordable health insurance, something is wrong.

325 posted on 10/08/2007 5:47:23 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: shhrubbery!

Since it’s our money, perhaps someone who lives in their state can sue them for fraud.

They thought they had trouble before with just a simple car accident. Wait until they are being sued and having all their personal financial details searched out and published. His business can probably be driven into bankruptcy from the bad press.

They would make a good object lesson to any other moonbat who wants to let themselves get used by Dims.


326 posted on 10/08/2007 5:49:07 PM PDT by worst-case scenario (Striving to reach the light)
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Oops, minor correction to my #323: The SUV accident was in December 2004, and the re-fi equity deal in September 2005.

So it was an interval of about nine months, not a year and a half.

327 posted on 10/08/2007 5:51:21 PM PDT by shhrubbery! (Max Boot: Joe Wilson has sold more whoppers than Burger King)
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To: B-Chan

You haven’t given us enough information. What is your profession? Could you or your wife not get some kind of job with health insurance coverage through the employer? You really cannot expect other taxpayers to subsidize your desire to be your own boss. We all know people who plod on in jobs they don’t like, jobs that don’t have much in the way of opportunity. Maybe you have to take one of those that provides health insurance. Can’t you get a job at a Post Office? They have health insurance coverage and there are many Americans living on a Post Office salary.


328 posted on 10/08/2007 6:14:52 PM PDT by OneCitizen
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To: B-Chan

Something is definitely wrong, the question is, how do we find out what.


329 posted on 10/08/2007 6:16:06 PM PDT by darkangel82 (All right! Let's go Tribe!!)
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To: darkangel82

My poor immigrant grandmother had a saying that applies exactly to this story: the more you stir it, the worse it smells.


330 posted on 10/08/2007 6:36:30 PM PDT by NaughtiusMaximus ("The stool pigeon is the coming race." - Jack Black, <i>You Can't Win</i>)
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To: darkangel82

My poor immigrant grandmother had a saying that applies exactly to this story: the more you stir it, the worse it smells.


331 posted on 10/08/2007 6:36:47 PM PDT by NaughtiusMaximus ("The stool pigeon is the coming race." - Jack Black, <i>You Can't Win</i>)
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To: mnehrling

Thanks to $90,000,000 in punitive taxation, little Billy was able to triumph over Anorexia.


332 posted on 10/08/2007 6:39:01 PM PDT by NaughtiusMaximus ("The stool pigeon is the coming race." - Jack Black, <i>You Can't Win</i>)
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To: icwhatudo

What can I say...superb investigation!

Here is the poster family for liberal left: granite countertops for me, and everyone else pay for my health insurance!


333 posted on 10/08/2007 6:40:55 PM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

After raising 5 kids,and some years were struggles,and now with 6 grandchildren,I’ll be damned if I’ll let my cigarettes be taxed more to pay for some other kids to have medical coverage.

We always paid our own way and I’ll become a law breakin’ tax evader if they try to make the smokers pay for SCHIP for the middle class.

(The Damn Yankees are rallying so I’m stressed right now)

Sorry !


334 posted on 10/08/2007 7:20:09 PM PDT by Mears
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To: Mears

Are they. I have it on Tivo. I had given up. Let me check it out and get back to you.


335 posted on 10/08/2007 7:22:22 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: beaversmom
Needs to be sent to the conservative radio hosts too.

It can't get published any higher!

Rush Limbaugh mentioned it at length on his radio program this afternoon!!

Even we the FReepers were credited for the revelation. Just remember how fast "buckhead" exposed dan blather's faked documents of GWB before the 60-minutes program was over. Kudos to everybody!!!

336 posted on 10/08/2007 7:41:22 PM PDT by danamco (Now, I would LOVE to hear your solution as to how to remove 12 to 30 million people from this countr)
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To: worst-case scenario
Wait until they are being sued and having all their personal financial details searched out and published.

I doubt very much they'll be sued. Probably Maryland's standards for doling out welfare money are so low, they didn't do anything "wrong" --under Maryland law.

While I don't wish them ill (for the sake of the chilrun), I DO wish they would feel at least a LITTLE shame for sponging off the taxpayer.

But I'm afraid the days are gone where most people felt shame at sucking at the public teat (and would eat nothing but beans and rice for a year, if that's what it took to avoid it).

337 posted on 10/08/2007 7:44:52 PM PDT by shhrubbery! (Max Boot: Joe Wilson has sold more whoppers than Burger King)
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To: libertarian27
1 bathroom for 6 people, is this located n Africa???
338 posted on 10/08/2007 7:52:56 PM PDT by danamco (Now, I would LOVE to hear your solution as to how to remove 12 to 30 million people from this countr)
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To: eleni121
Here is the poster family for liberal left: granite countertops for me, and everyone else pay for my health insurance!

Me too! Me some Free Stuff too! LOL!

339 posted on 10/08/2007 7:55:36 PM PDT by NaughtiusMaximus ("The stool pigeon is the coming race." - Jack Black, <i>You Can't Win</i>)
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To: shhrubbery!
But I'm afraid the days are gone where most people felt shame at sucking at the public teat (and would eat nothing but beans and rice for a year, if that's what it took to avoid it).

My Dad got paid at the end of the month during the early '60s, and there were times when my mother fed her five boys hot dog and baked bean dinners for the last three days of the month.

Nowadays, the welfare-Democrats are driving Escalades.

340 posted on 10/08/2007 8:00:42 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: kcvl
The Frost family has a combined annual income of about $45,000, said Bonnie Frost. She and her husband have priced private health insurance, but they say it would cost them more per month than their mortgage - about $1,200 a month. Neither parent has health insurance through work.

You have to wonder where this fellow has been looking for health insurance except from your's and mine pocket???

$1200@month, which is way out of proportion, however, is just slightly above the tuition for Gemma's PRIVATE schrool. Can you spell grifters!!!

341 posted on 10/08/2007 8:09:02 PM PDT by danamco (Now, I would LOVE to hear your solution as to how to remove 12 to 30 million people from this countr)
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To: ridesthemiles
In order to pay that kind of school tuition, pay mortgages, buy groceries, pay utilities, there is no way it can be done on a gross income of $45,000 a year. Even if the income is misstated, and it is a net income of $45,000, once you pay out $40,000 for tuition, how in the dickens does a family live on $5000 a year????

The article says their mortgage is $1,200, go figure!!!

342 posted on 10/08/2007 8:18:49 PM PDT by danamco (Now, I would LOVE to hear your solution as to how to remove 12 to 30 million people from this countr)
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To: ImaTexan

PING


343 posted on 10/08/2007 8:20:31 PM PDT by bjcintennessee (Don't Sweat the Small Stuff)
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To: OneCitizen
You haven’t given us enough information. What is your profession?

Writer.

Could you or your wife not get some kind of job with health insurance coverage through the employer?

I've done that in the past. Our family business is too small to offer health benefits.

You really cannot expect other taxpayers to subsidize your desire to be your own boss.

I don't. I expect medical care to be priced so that self-employed people can afford it.

We all know people who plod on in jobs they don’t like, jobs that don’t have much in the way of opportunity.

Seventeen years in the advertising business, working my way from copy boy to art director. Yes, I'm familiar with wage slavery.

Maybe you have to take one of those that provides health insurance.

I will, when COBRA runs out. It's a shame I have no other options.

Can’t you get a job at a Post Office? They have health insurance coverage and there are many Americans living on a Post Office salary.

I suppose so. If it comes down to it, I'll shovel shit in a stable. I'm used to being a disposable human resource, after all. Any self-respect or basic human dignity I once had was long ago beaten out of me by our wonderful capitalist economic system. For my wife and child, I'll do anything other than betray Christ.

The point is that I shouldn't have to. There is no logical reason that health care should be so expensive. Something, as I said, is wrong. I'm not smart enough to know what, exactly, but it's obvious that something's just not working.

And I'm healthy and skilled. What if I wasn't? What if I was crippled and couldn't get a Post Office job with health insurance benefits? The Post Office can't hire everyone, after all. Suppose a person can't work at all? Maybe they're alcoholic, or depressed, or just plain lazy. Are their sick kids supposed to just crawl off and die because Daddy's too drunk get on at the USPS?

As with Marxian socialism, ideological free-market capitalism does not track with reality as experienced by human beings in the real world. It works fine when one is discussing the relationship between the supply of and demand for pumpkins, pins, or some other disposable good or service without which people can live if they so choose; in reality, however, health care cannot be left to an unregulated free market to provide — for the very simple reason that people's lives are at stake. At the very least, sick children must be cared for, even if other people are "forced" to pay for that care at gunpoint by the cold hand of Government. Children's lives are not pumpkins. Joe Six-Pack is not going to squat next to his kid's bed while little Joey dies from fever and say "Oh, well, it's the Invisible Hand of the Free Market at work. Better luck next time, kid." What he will do, given no other options, is pick up a gun, join forces with other Joe Six-Packs, and overthrow the government. The system he and his fellow revolutionaries put into place is likely to be much worse than the one that preceded it.

The same goes for food and shelter. No country where people are allowed to starve in the streets or die coughing in the gutters for lack of money is going to survive very long. Fair or not, like it or not, there are certain things that everyone has to have — whether they deserve them or not — or else the fabric of society will be destroyed. That's reality.

(To a Christian, of course, there is no such thing as being "forced to" care for the sick. It is the proud duty of every Christian to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and care for the sick — even if the needy don't deserve it.)

I'm not a capitalist, but neither am I a socialist. I don't want government-paid health care, or government-paid anything else. Amtrak's service is lousy, and I don't think the Feds have any more business running a clinic than they have running a railroad. In the cases of both health care and railroads, however, government does have a legitimate function however: the function of providing infrastructure. The Feds pay for seaports, canals, highways, airports, and air traffic control infrastructure, which is then used by privately-owned businesses operating on a for-profit basis; so too should they provide infrastructure for railroads, not the rail passenger service itself. In like manner, the Feds should not be providing medical services directly; instead, they should provide infrastructure (in the form of vouchers) good for treatment at any participating privately-owned, for-profit medical care establishment. This would provide a guarantee of health care for all Americans while preserving the free-market system of choice that ensures quality care.

Yes, I can get a job somewhere that has health benefits — but not everyone is as capable as I am. For those who aren't, some way has to be found to keep them from dying in the streets, or else sooner or later we're going to end up with real socialized medicine. That's all I'm saying.

344 posted on 10/08/2007 8:26:45 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: Son House
Fifteen states including Florida, Maryland, Michigan, Massachusetts, New York and New Jersey also require that you buy Personal Injury Protection (PIP). This coverage pays for your medical expenses and lost wages in the event of an auto accident.

Does that also covers the passengers, or only the owner of the vehicle and how much is the coverage max. in $$$ ???

345 posted on 10/08/2007 8:32:32 PM PDT by danamco (Now, I would LOVE to hear your solution as to how to remove 12 to 30 million people from this countr)
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To: B-Chan
health care cannot be left to an unregulated free market to provide

It's not even close to being an "unregulated free market". The government has it's sticky little fingers in every aspect of it which is a huge problem, not to mention the ambulance chasing trial lawyers who are more like buzzards.

If you can't afford to pay for a child, you should wait until you can or work more than one job if you really want a child that badly. We have worked two jobs (and sometimes three) in order to pay for things we needed or wanted (mostly wanted). When you think about it there aren't that many things in life that we really need.

. It is the proud duty of every Christian to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and care for the sick — even if the needy don't deserve it.

It should be the CHOICE of the Christian (or anyone else) to decide for themselves if they want to care for others, not the government stealing it from us and forcing us to pay for others.

346 posted on 10/08/2007 8:59:04 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: All

Thanks for the good work on this ! Truth will set us free-


” ...Could you or your wife not get some kind of job with health insurance coverage through the employer? ...”


Wondering why employers are expected to pick up the tab — or part of it ??

Shouldn’t we look at the insurance companies practice of short-paying Docs ?
Shouldn’t we look at pricing and competetivness ?
Maybe Docs could start shunning insurance ???
Maybe Docs could post prices ???

????? Let’s rethink the whole health-insurance tyranny that is currently creating this “crisis” .


347 posted on 10/08/2007 9:06:19 PM PDT by biscuit jane ( Stop. Think.)
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To: biscuit jane

by jove I think shes got it! exactly.


348 posted on 10/08/2007 9:07:39 PM PDT by donnab (saving liberals brains....one moron at a time.)
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To: B-Chan

“We are a solidly middle-class family of three. I am self-employed and cannot afford medical insurance. Mrs Chan works for our family business, which has no employee health insurance (too expensive).
...We do not live extravagantly. We own a solid, red-brick 1952 rambler of 1300 ft2 that we are renovating little by little, which is located in a old center-city neighborhood. I have a BMW (a 1984 318i, 200,000 miles±) and she drives our Toyota (a 1995 4Runner, 195,000± miles), both paid for, with full-coverage insurance ...We have no dogs, no Tivo, no boat, and no plasma TV. We live frugally.

And we still can’t afford health insurance.

Something’s wrong. I’m not saying that Hillary is right, and I’m not claiming that the Frost family deserves government-sponsored health care — but when a hardworking, frugal middle-class family such as we cannot find affordable health insurance, something is wrong.”


You are right BC. Doing everything you can, and not being super human... I think there are a number of things wrong
and certainly none of us wants gvmnt to step in.

We need to either eliminate health insurance and pay Docs the old fashioned way (with chickens and whiskey) , or create buyers pools/co-ops where people can associate for the sole reason of buying health insurance *ick* .

Also the pricing structure and tranparency MUST be easily available to patients.
How many here ask Doc how much a visit/exam/procedure costs?
Why would we when the Insurance pays for it ??

If Docs (sorry Docs ) had to compete for patients and not for insurance providers maybe things would become. reasonable ????


349 posted on 10/08/2007 9:21:49 PM PDT by biscuit jane ( Stop. Think.)
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To: B-Chan
Joe Six-Pack is not going to squat next to his kid's bed while little Joey dies from fever and say "Oh, well, it's the Invisible Hand of the Free Market at work. Better luck next time, kid."

That's a great line! Problem is, the Invisible Hand of the Free Market CAN'T work in the American health insurance industry, because that industry has been so heavily encumbered by socialism already. It's hardly recognizable as a "market" anymore.

You're trapped in a system where private costs have escalated beyond your means. Why? Because of cost-shifting from the socialized segment of the "market" (Medicare and Medicaid recipients).

Yes, I can get a job somewhere that has health benefits — but not everyone is as capable as I am.

You might be surprised what "less capable" people could do -- if they had to.

I'm sympathetic to you B-Chan, and I wish you luck with the baby. I also wish I could donate my many years of totally un-used health insurance to your family (you'd have to knock me unconscious to get me into a doctor's office or emergency room!). But alas, it doesn't work that way.

350 posted on 10/08/2007 9:24:00 PM PDT by shhrubbery! (Max Boot: Joe Wilson has sold more whoppers than Burger King)
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