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Clueless About Columbus
The Bulletin ^ | 10/05/2007 | Michael P Tremoglie

Posted on 10/08/2007 10:11:47 AM PDT by William Tell 2

Columbus Day was originally celebrated Oct. 12, the day Christopher Columbus landed in the New World, but it is currently celebrated the second Monday in October.

However, in some quarters, "celebrate" is not the appropriate term.

Since about 1992, Columbus Day has been not only a celebration by Italian-Americans, but a day of protests by some - not all - Native Americans and by those who describe themselves as "multiculturalists."

It is important to note who these "multiculturalists" are: people who think Western civilization is an evil culture. They want to portray the European/American culture as uniquely causing death and destruction.

As is usually the case, these protesters are not motivated by altruism. The invective directed at Columbus is really directed against the American system of capitalism and democracy. Columbus is nothing more than a proxy to attempt to discredit our government by attempting to demonize our historical roots.

Despite Columbus Day being celebrated since at least 1866, it became a target for the American liberal on the 500th anniversary in 1992. It was excoriated as a day that began the advent of slavery. It was deemed a day in which the destruction of the utopia created by Native Americans in what we now call the Americas commenced.

For example, in 1993 a leaflet was distributed to a Philadelphia elementary school class by a teacher. It was titled: "Gifting the White Man ... Despite the Betrayals. "

The document stated: "Far from being the savages Christopher Columbus described in his log, native peoples of the Americas were advanced in many ways - and were more civilized than their discoverers. From the moment Europeans set foot in the West, the world has been enriched by Indian achievements and wisdom. In return, native peoples have been paid back with five centuries of cruelty, betrayals and relentless attempts to take their lands and destroy their culture."

The paper then lists in two separate columns: "Indian Gifts to White Men" and "White Man's Gifts to the Indians." Included among Indian gifts is government.

According to the leaflet's authors, "The American federal system derives not from Europe - whose nation's knew nothing of democracy - but Indian tribal organizations."

This leaflet distributed to schoolchildren claimed Europeans knew nothing of democracy, a concept and word created by the ancient Greeks.

Perhaps the most egregious example of the political perversion of history occurs in Denver. For over a decade now, the annual Columbus Day parade has been disrupted by groups allegedly representing Native Americans who say Columbus brought slavery, war and destruction to America. According to them, America was paradise of peace, freedom and individual rights before the Europeans arrived.

The suggestion that Europeans and Americans were unique in conquest of other peoples and lands is absurd. The idea that the true history of European conquest and American conquest needs to be taught if there is any fairness or balance to history is deceptive.

If the "multiculturalists" wanted to be fair and balanced about teaching history, then they should teach about the practice of human sacrifice by the Aztecs and cannibalism by the Caribes. (The word "cannibal" is derived from the mispronunciation of the name Caribe by the Spanish.)

If "multiculturalists" wanted to present a comprehensive history of the New World, they should mention that the Taino Indians of Cuba had conquered and enslaved the Ciboney, who had displaced the Gauanhatabey. The Tainos in turn dreaded the Caribs, who had already conquered the Igneri.

If multiculturalists really want to educate students about slavery, then they should teach not only about the enslavement of Native Americans and Africans by Europeans but about the enslavement of Native Americans by other Native Americans, as well as the enslavement of Africans by other Africans. They should teach that slavery was practiced among the Aztecs, the Incas and the Mayas as well as Tlingit, the Haida and other tribes. But this would be counter to their objectives.

The Roman statesman Cicero once said, "The first law of the historian is that he shall never dare utter an untruth. ... There shall be no suspicion of partiality in his writing, or of malice."

Multiculturalism is merely the attempt to elevate some cultures at the expense of others. Until multiculturalist historians heed the words of Cicero, the PC torchbearers will continue to the divide rather than unite.

Michael P. Tremoglie is the author of the conservative novel "A Sense of Duty" available at Barnesandnoble.com and Amazon.com.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: christophercolumbus; columbus; columbusday; diversity; godsgravesglyphs; history; liberals; multiculturalism; newworld; politicalcorrectness; tremoglie

1 posted on 10/08/2007 10:11:48 AM PDT by William Tell 2
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To: William Tell 2

And then there are those who think nobody outside America knew about the New World until Columbus’ voyage even though several countries/kingdoms, including some in Europe, already had lively trade with the NW.


2 posted on 10/08/2007 10:15:57 AM PDT by RightWhale (50 years later we're still sitting on the ground)
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To: William Tell 2

Columbus just a few hundred years late!
3 posted on 10/08/2007 10:17:34 AM PDT by BubbaBasher (WWW.TWFRED08.COM)
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To: BubbaBasher

I hadn’t realized it before now, but it’s obvious that the stripes on the US flag are intended to honor the Vikings who discovered America.


4 posted on 10/08/2007 10:21:07 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: William Tell 2

Before Indians were running casinos and selling cigarettes tax-free in North America, they were a stone-age people before the “pale face” came. They had not learned to domesticate animals (except dogs and lamas), they had no written language, they used only stone tools and they had not even yet invented the wheel.

They had never seen a horse, a metal knife, a cart or a plow.

They also commonly practiced slavery, genocide and cannibalism against other tribes. No matter how many times you watch “Dances with Wolves” and “Pocahontas,” it will not change these facts. The vast majority of Missionaries wanted to spread the gospel of Christ and raise these new converts out of their stone-age way of life. What should they have done? Ignore them?

In terms of population percentage loss, the worst war we ever fought was King Philip’s War in 1675-76. King Philip was an indian chief (also known as Metacomet) who attacked to oust white settlers from New England. The Indians burned down/destroyed twelve of ninety Puritan towns and attacked forty others (including Providence). The Colonists’ population was small in 1675 and a good percentage of that population was killed in the war (with about 1000 slain out of a population of 52,000, this death rate was nearly twice that of the Civil War and more than seven times that of World War II). The Indians lost the war.

The vast majority of Indians sided with the French in the French And Indian War (1753). The indians lost the war.

The vast majority of Indians sided with the British in the Revolution. The Indians lost the war. Think about that - the Freedoms we have today and the Freedoms the Indians use without shame are the same Freedoms their ancestors fought against.

The vast majority of Indians sided with the British again in the War of 1812. The Indians lost the war.

As the Americans moved west, fighting was constant on both sides. The Indians lost every time.

The judgment of history is merciless.


5 posted on 10/08/2007 10:26:15 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: William Tell 2
I wonder who started that utterly false garbage about the Iroquois having a "federal government"?

It has absolutely no basis in historical reality.

6 posted on 10/08/2007 10:26:28 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: 2banana

Disney advertised Pocahontas as historically accurate. Does that include the Talking Tree?


7 posted on 10/08/2007 10:30:50 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: massgopguy

The movie wasn’t even accurate about John Smith. He wasn’t tall and blond...he was short and dark-haired.


8 posted on 10/08/2007 10:35:13 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus; BubbaBasher

I am a proud Columbus supporter of Italian extraction.

There are no more than a few stones piled one atop the other to hint at Eric the Red and his son Leif’s sojourn to somewhere up the Canadian coastline. (I won’t even try to go into the possibilities of St Brendan)

Failed colonies do not come near to legacy building.

I am proud of how much influence my Goomba had here 515 years ago, and if the so called native people have a problem with it, then its time to get off the reservation and get a job, just like everybody else.


9 posted on 10/08/2007 10:36:20 AM PDT by Vaquero (" an armed society is a polite society" Heinlein "MOLON LABE!" Leonidas of Sparta)
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To: William Tell 2
Since about 1992, Columbus Day has been not only a celebration by Italian-Americans, but a day of protests by some - not all - Native Americans and by those who describe themselves as "multiculturalists."

"I can't believe my teacher made me write an essay about the good things that Columbus did when they spent the whole year saying how bad he was. How am I supposed to write something good about him?"

-My gov't school-propagandized neice from snooty MA town, yesterday


10 posted on 10/08/2007 10:40:32 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Vaquero
A Genoan who sailed for Spain, yet today its a bunch of Sicillians putting on a tacky parade!

Cristoforo was a sailor and explorer, not a conquistador. Don't get me started on how the English and Native Americans themselves were better practicioners of mass murder of the indigenous than the Spanish, French, and Portuguese combined.

11 posted on 10/08/2007 10:40:37 AM PDT by Clemenza (Rudy Giuliani, like Pesto and Seattle, belongs in the scrap heap of '90s Culture)
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To: Vaquero

I’ve never understood their gripe.

Do they wish that they were still living in the stoneage while the rest of the world believed in a flat earth and didn’t come looking for them?

Nuts, just plain nuts.


12 posted on 10/08/2007 10:41:31 AM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: William Tell 2

One of the anti-Columbus Day parade people interviewed on FoxNews said that the parade ‘tramatized the children.’


13 posted on 10/08/2007 10:43:05 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: 2banana

‘No matter how many times you watch “Dances with Wolves” and “Pocahontas,” it will not change these facts.’

(chuckle)

Amen.


14 posted on 10/08/2007 10:44:20 AM PDT by Badeye (Free Willie!)
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To: 2banana

‘No matter how many times you watch “Dances with Wolves” and “Pocahontas,” it will not change these facts.’

(chuckle)

Amen.


15 posted on 10/08/2007 10:44:37 AM PDT by Badeye (Free Willie!)
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To: William Tell 2
Since about 1992, Columbus Day has been not only a celebration by Italian-Americans, but a day of protests by some - not all - Native Americans and by those who describe themselves as "multiculturalists."

Two phrases for the "multiculturists" -
Deal with it!!

and
Grow up!!

16 posted on 10/08/2007 10:48:40 AM PDT by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
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To: William Tell 2
As is usually the case, these protesters are not motivated by altruism. The invective directed at Columbus is really directed against the American system of capitalism and democracy.

Catholics and Christians moreso. Remember reading Columbus' diary in school? Neither do I.

Christopher Columbus: Extracts from Journal

IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST

Whereas, Most Christian, High, Excellent, and Powerful Princes, King and Queen of Spain and of the Islands of the Sea, our Sovereigns, this present year 1492, after your Highnesses had terminated the war with the Moors reigning in Europe, the same having been brought to an end in the great city of Granada, where on the second day of January, this present year, I saw the royal banners of your Highnesses planted by force of arms upon the towers of the Alhambra, which is the fortress of that city, and saw the Moorish king come out at the gate of the city and kiss the hands of your Highnesses, and of the Prince my Sovereign; and in the present month, in consequence of the information which I had given your Highnesses respecting the countries of India and of a Prince, called Great Can, which in our language signifies King of Kings, how, at many times he, and his predecessors had sent to Rome soliciting instructors who might teach him our holy faith, and the holy Father had never granted his request, whereby great numbers of people were lost, believing in idolatry and doctrines of perdition. Your Highnesses, as Catholic Christians, and princes who love and promote the holy Christian faith, and are enemies of the doctrine of Mahomet, and of all idolatry and heresy, determined to send me, Christopher Columbus, to the above-mentioned countries of India, to see the said princes, people, and territories, and to learn their disposition and the proper method of converting them to our holy faith; and furthermore directed that I should not proceed by land to the East, as is customary, but by a Westerly route, in which direction we have hitherto no certain evidence that any one has gone. So after having expelled the Jews from your dominions, your Highnesses, in the same month of January, ordered me to proceed with a sufficient armament to the said regions of India, and for that purpose granted me great favors, and ennobled me that thenceforth I might call myself Don, and be High Admiral of the Sea, and perpetual Viceroy and Governor in all the islands and continents which I might discover and acquire, or which may hereafter he discovered and acquired in the ocean; and that this dignity should be inherited by my eldest son, and thus descend from degree to degree forever. Hereupon I left the city of Granada, on Saturday, the twelfth day of May, 1492, and proceeded to Palos, a seaport, where I armed three vessels, very fit for such an enterprise, and having provided myself with abundance of stores and seamen, I set sail from the port, on Friday, the third of August, half an hour before sunrise, and steered for the Canary Islands of your Highnesses which are in the said ocean, thence to take my departure and proceed till I arrived at the Indies, and perform the embassy of your Highnesses to the Princes there, and discharge the orders given me. For this purpose I determined to keep an account of the voyage, and to write down punctually every thing we performed or saw from day to day, as will hereafter appear...

Here follow the precise words of the Admiral: "As I saw that they were very friendly to us, and perceived that they could be much more easily converted to our holy faith by gentle means than by force, I presented them with some red caps, and strings of beads to wear upon the neck, and many other trifles of small value, wherewith they were much delighted, and became wonderfully attached to us. Afterwards they came swimming to the boats, bringing parrots, balls of cotton thread, javelins, and many other things which they exchanged for articles we gave them, such as glass beads, and hawk's bells; which trade was carried on with the utmost good will. But they seemed on the whole to me, to be a very poor people. They all go completely naked, even the women, though I saw but one girl. All whom I saw were young, not above thirty years of age, well made, with fine shapes and faces; their hair short, and coarse like that of a horse's tail, combed toward the forehead, except a small portion which they suffer to hang down behind, and never cut. Some paint themselves with black, which makes them appear like those of the Canaries, neither black nor white; others with white, others with red, and others with such colors as they can find. Some paint the face, and some the whole body; others only the eyes, and others the nose. Weapons they have none, nor are acquainted with them, for I showed them swords which they grasped by the blades, and cut themselves through ignorance. They have no iron, their javelins being without it, and nothing more than sticks, though some have fish-bones or other things at the ends. They are all of a good size and stature, and handsomely formed.

I deeply resent the crappy method of teaching history that I was subjected to in the schoolag archipelago.
17 posted on 10/08/2007 10:51:33 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Clemenza
Cristoforo was a sailor and explorer, not a conquistador.

He may have been a great sailor, but I don't think he was a very good explorer. If he really believed that he had sailed to the Indies, then his estimate of the earth's size was off by a wide margin.

18 posted on 10/08/2007 11:00:09 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: William Tell 2
Can't resist posting more...
Tuesday, 16 October... The island is verdant, level and fertile to a high degree; and I doubt not that grain is sowed and reaped the whole year round, as well as all other productions of the place. I saw many trees, very dissimilar to those of our country, and many of them had branches of different sorts upon the same trunk; and such a diversity was among them that it was the greatest wonder in the world to behold. Thus, for instance, one branch of a tree bore leaves like those of a cane, another branch of the same tree, leaves similar to those of the lentisk. In this manner a single tree bears five or six different kinds. Nor is this done by grafting, for that is a work of art, whereas these trees grow wild, and the natives take no care about them. They have no religion, and I believe that they would very readily become Christians, as they have a good understanding. Here the fish are so dissimilar to ours that it is wonderful. Some are shaped like dories, of the finest hues in the world, blue, yellow, red, and every other color, some variegated with a thousand different tints, so beautiful that no one on beholding them could fail to express the highest wonder and admiration. Here are also whales. Beasts, we saw none, nor any creatures on land save parrots and lizards, but a boy told me he saw a large snake. No sheep nor goats were seen, and although our stay here has been short, it being now noon, yet were there any, I could hardly have failed of seeing them. The circumnavigation of the island I shall describe afterward.

Journal of Christopher Columbus, bad, evil, dead white male


19 posted on 10/08/2007 11:01:28 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Alberta's Child

My favorite MYTH about Columbus is that he thought the earth was flat. In truth, anyone who was literate in Europe at the time knew that the world was round.


20 posted on 10/08/2007 11:01:33 AM PDT by Clemenza (Rudy Giuliani, like Pesto and Seattle, belongs in the scrap heap of '90s Culture)
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To: DustyMoment

One of the present day cultural issues I address in my novel is the way the liberal multiculturalists have done the exact same thing they condemn - that is the demonization of certain classes, cultures and/or ethnic groups at the expense of others.

My novel uses the liberal media ( white liberals) who demonize police officers (primarily white working class), African-Americans demonizing Italian-Americans, and certain minorities and feminists demonizing white male Christian, ethnic groups.


21 posted on 10/08/2007 11:07:54 AM PDT by William Tell 2
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To: Alberta's Child
Yes, Columbus thought the earth's circumference was 7 or 8 thousand miles less than the correct figure. Ironically, Eratosthenes in the 3rd century BC had calculated the circumference and came up with a fairly accurate figure.

Once he got to the West Indies he did some remarkable exploration.

22 posted on 10/08/2007 11:14:30 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Clemenza

If Columbus had never sailed, America would have been discovered within a few years by Europeans. Pedro Cabral discovered Brazil in April 1500, while sailing from Portugal to India. Instead of having Columbus Day in October, we could have a Cabral Day in April.


23 posted on 10/08/2007 11:19:06 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus
It (permanent settlement) was bound to happen. All Europe needed were advancements in technology and a surplus population.

Of course before CC, we had the Norse, the Irish, the Chinese, the Welsh, and, possibly, Africans and Phoencians as well.

24 posted on 10/08/2007 11:21:18 AM PDT by Clemenza (Rudy Giuliani, like Pesto and Seattle, belongs in the scrap heap of '90s Culture)
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To: Aquinasfan

I have often thought that formal schooling serves both types of students poorly; those easily misled for they have no curiosity or ambition go away knowing a decreasing smattering about the world which more or less disappears over time, and those whose deep and searching need to know more is unleashed when the final bell rings.

In neither case shall you likely find these two types in general association again until such time as another constrictive assembly is required of them by some controlling force or agent.


25 posted on 10/08/2007 11:31:32 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Badeye

“Dances with Wolves” portrayed the Pawnee in a savage, murderous light. It was the Sioux who were treated with kid gloves.

At the beginning of the movie, the Pawnee brutally killed the wagon master.....the guy who led Costner’s character to the abandoned soldier fort.

Also, the white woman.....”Stands with a Fist”.....a flashback scene depicts her entire family under attack, and brutally murdered, by the Pawnee.

War amongst tribes was not unusual long before the white man came to this continent. Tribes scalped one another, enslaved their enemies, and committed atrocities. Some tribes were far more peaceful than others, but some could be, and were, quite violent.


26 posted on 10/08/2007 11:40:48 AM PDT by july4thfreedomfoundation (My number one goal in life is to leave a bigger carbon footprint than Al Gore.)
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To: july4thfreedomfoundation

I’ve seen the movie countless times.


27 posted on 10/08/2007 11:41:51 AM PDT by Badeye (Free Willie!)
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To: William Tell 2

bmflr


28 posted on 10/08/2007 12:03:40 PM PDT by Kevmo (We should withdraw from Iraq — via Tehran. And Duncan Hunter is just the man to get that job done.)
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To: RightWhale
And then there are those who think nobody outside America knew about the New World until Columbus’ voyage even though several countries/kingdoms, including some in Europe, already had lively trade with the NW.

Totally irrelevant.

Most reasonable people still credit Watt with "inventing" the steam engine; not Hero. The wheel was invented by Mesopotamians or Egyptians, not by the Aztecs.

Democracy applied to the Indians in North America is a joke.

The mild-mannered, kind and humanitarian Vikings may have visited America, but they didn't discover it. Please note that we don't speak a Scandinavian language today anywhere in the American continent.

I celebrate Columbus Day.

29 posted on 10/08/2007 12:19:53 PM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: William Tell 2
Native Americans

I'm a native American and I have no problem with Columbus at all. In fact, 1992 is the only time that I ever attended the parade though I have to admit, I was working a block away and only spent my lunch hour there.

As for the Aboriginal Americans go, I don't care what they think. I don't take offense when they invade Floyd Bennett Field to have their powwows or anything so don't rain on my parade. (Well, it's more my wife's parade -- my parade is in March when it's the Gay Lobby instead of the Aborigines).

30 posted on 10/08/2007 12:29:47 PM PDT by Tanniker Smith (When the dog bites, when the bee stings, when you're feeling sad ... Bush's fault.)
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To: William Tell 2

Duluth, MN mayor Herb Bergson issued a proclamation that today is “Indigenous People Day” rather than Columbus Day because of the dastardly things Columbus did to the natives.


31 posted on 10/08/2007 12:33:58 PM PDT by From The Deer Stand
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To: Alberta's Child
If he really believed that he had sailed to the Indies, then his estimate of the earth's size was off by a wide margin.

Any third grader knows that today.

The biggest disservice done to the debate on this subject is viewing events of 500 years ago by today's knowledge of the physical universe.

Mention the name Erathostenes today to any average American and see the blank stares.
How much more clueless is that average American about philosophy, political science and cultural history, or history in general.
Particularly, in the area of ethics and societal mores and attitudes at different times in the civilized world, to the extent that we can identify them 500 or 1000 years later, having a discussion about events of medieval times without a firm grasp of context is a fool's errand.

32 posted on 10/08/2007 1:24:12 PM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: Clemenza

Giuseppe Garibaldi combined the little city states into one Italy in the 1860’s.

So your ‘bunch of Sicilians’ putting on their tacky parade have pretty much the same reason to do so, as a Genoan or a Napolitiano or a Lombard...(don’t get me started about the Calabrese).

Agreed about the English and the NAs themselves.....”Here chief, take these only-used-once blankets as a symbol of our good faith....”


33 posted on 10/09/2007 4:08:45 AM PDT by Vaquero (" an armed society is a polite society" Heinlein "MOLON LABE!" Leonidas of Sparta)
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To: Tanniker Smith
Interesting how you bring up St. Pat's, as the Gays have been openly marching in the Dublin and Cork parades for years. Its only in the US that it seems to be a problem.

Q: How can you tell who the gays are in a St. Patrick's Day Parade?

A: They're the ones wearing collars and cassocks!

34 posted on 10/09/2007 1:32:03 PM PDT by Clemenza (Rudy Giuliani, like Pesto and Seattle, belongs in the scrap heap of '90s Culture)
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To: wideawake; William Tell 2
I wonder who started that utterly false garbage about the Iroquois having a "federal government"?

A key seems to be the 1751 letter from Benjamin Franklin to James Parker, in which he wrote:

It would be a strange thing if Six Nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for such an union, and be able to execute it in such a manner as that it has subsisted ages and appears indissoluble; and yet that a like union should be impracticable for ten or a dozen English colonies, to whom it is more necessary and must be more advantageous, and who cannot be supposed to want an equal understanding of their interests.
You might be interested in the following, also...

Native American Political Systems and the Evolution of Democracy: An Annotated Bibliography
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/NAPSnEoD.html

I'm no expert in all of this about the Iroquois, but what bugged me was the way the it seems to me that they had a federal system, but what bugged me was this part:

According to the leaflet's authors, "The American federal system derives not from Europe - whose nation's knew nothing of democracy - but Indian tribal organizations."

This leaflet distributed to schoolchildren claimed Europeans knew nothing of democracy, a concept and word created by the ancient Greeks.
There might be truth in the statement that our federal system is derived from the tribal nations not Europe, but obviously democracy was known by the Greeks. Still, the difference between a republic and a democracy is important. These are subtle propaganda techniques they are using.

It's also rotten that mispunctuated pamphlets were distributed in our schools. Where can I get a scan or copy of one of these?

35 posted on 10/11/2007 9:45:40 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Gondring
There might be truth in the statement that our federal system is derived from the tribal nations not Europe, but obviously democracy was known by the Greeks.

The Greeks not only were familiar with democracy, but European history is full of federal systems: the Delian league, the Achaean league, the Etruscan Confederation, the League of Latium, the Schmalkaldic League, the Hanseatic League, Switzerland, the United Provinces, etc.

The Framers, as is clear from the debates, did not draw on the primitive Iroquois alliance, but from the legal foundations of European history - they made constant references to the Swiss and Dutch federal systems in the Federalist and in the debates.

If the Framers were looking for tribal alliances, they could have looked at the clan federations of their own Scottish ancestors, or that of the Poles.

36 posted on 10/11/2007 10:09:00 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: wideawake
The Framers, as is clear from the debates, did not draw on the primitive Iroquois alliance, but from the legal foundations of European history - they made constant references to the Swiss and Dutch federal systems in the Federalist and in the debates.

You're right, of course, and boy, did I state that very poorly! What I meant to say was that the Framers might have looked to the Iroquois, I didn't mean that it was their basis or their inspiration. I don't know what to think of the claims that Jefferson studied it, etc., but I think that even studying it doesn't mean that the basis.

Perhaps I could word it thus: the Iroquois might have influenced their thinking to some extent--that might be possible--but I don't believe it's the foundation.

37 posted on 10/11/2007 1:30:03 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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Gods
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Note: this topic is from December 2007.

Blast from the Past.

Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

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38 posted on 08/17/2008 5:47:07 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_______Profile hasn't been updated since Friday, May 30, 2008)
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To: William Tell 2
Since about 1992, Columbus Day has been not only a celebration by Italian-Americans

Mostly by Sicilian and Neopolitan Americans whose ancestors were culturally and linguistically distinct from the Genoese Colombo.

Columbus Day was pushed by Italian Americans largely to show the larger North American community that they "played a part" in the American narrative.

As for myself, I would prefer celebrating Cortes, but that would REALLY piss off the dimestore Indians and the white liberals.

39 posted on 08/17/2008 6:05:41 PM PDT by Clemenza (No Comment)
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To: Vaquero

Sorry, I just realized this was an old thread that I had already commented on!


40 posted on 08/17/2008 6:07:26 PM PDT by Clemenza (No Comment)
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To: wideawake; Antoninus
I wonder who started that utterly false garbage about the Iroquois having a "federal government"?

Well, there is some basis in fact here. The original 5 tribes had a confederacy based at Onondaga that was founded before Europeans got here (when exactly is a matter of debate). It was a representative system in which chiefs from the 5 tribes and from the various clans were specifically appointed to 1 of 50 different slots in the Roll Call of Chiefs at the great Council at Onondaga. Then there was one chief called the Thadodaho who presided "first of equals" over the whole thing.

But to say it was a democracy or even a federal government...mmm...that's pushing it. The Mohawk during the 1650s were continually at odds with the rest of the League, and at one point they were at war with their fellow League members the Seneca. Moreover, when consensus could not be reached between the Five Nations, the central fire would be covered and every nation was, in essence, free to go on its own. It was really much more like a loose version of the Articles of Confederation.

Admiration for some aspects of the Iroquois League is nothing new in American History. They weren't called "the Romans of the West" in the 1800s for nothing....but the degree to which some academics will go to deny--in the face of flat-out documentary evidence--that the Iroquois practiced ritual cannibalism, enslaved conquered peoples, and brutally tortured their enemies is really beyond the pale.

Moreover, there were plenty of European models of representative government for the Founding Fathers to choose from: Rome, Greece, the Italian Republics. The U.S. government is firmly in that tradition. We did not have horns of office, roll calls of chiefs, clan representation, elder brothers and younger brothers, condolence ceremonies between the states, etc. There is no Federal Keeper of the Wampum. ;)

41 posted on 08/18/2008 11:00:06 AM PDT by Claud
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To: wideawake
The Framers, as is clear from the debates, did not draw on the primitive Iroquois alliance, but from the legal foundations of European history - they made constant references to the Swiss and Dutch federal systems in the Federalist and in the debates.

Exactly. I should have read your comments down further before I posted.

42 posted on 08/18/2008 11:02:47 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Gondring; wideawake

FYI, here’s one of the seminal books on the Iroquois League, written before political correctness. :)

http://books.google.com/books?id=5usNAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=lewis+henry+morgan+league+of+the+iroquois#PPR15,M1


43 posted on 08/18/2008 11:10:53 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
But to say it was a democracy or even a federal government...mmm...that's pushing it.

Your source "pushes it" in Volume I, Book I, Chapter I, Paragraph 1.... :-)

Text not available
League of the Ho-dé-no-sau-nee Or Iroquois By Lewis Henry Morgan, Herbert Marshall Lloyd

44 posted on 08/19/2008 10:56:35 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Clemenza

Thorvald Ericson!


45 posted on 08/19/2008 10:59:15 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Gondring

Too few people realize that Tor was the first European to be buried in North America. I learned about this in elementary school back when there still were some good teachers around.


46 posted on 08/19/2008 11:03:19 AM PDT by Clemenza (No Comment)
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To: Vaquero
Also, let us not forget the writings of Snorre Sturlasson about Eric the Red and Leif Ericson's discovery of the new world. Some think that Columbus might have read a bit of Snorre and that gave him the idea, but I doubt it.
47 posted on 08/19/2008 11:16:57 AM PDT by allmendream (If "the New Yorker" makes a joke, and liberals don't get it, is it still funny?)
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To: Gondring
Your source "pushes it" in Volume I, Book I, Chapter I, Paragraph 1.... :-)

Well whaddya know!

I will happily stand corrected by Morgan.

48 posted on 08/19/2008 1:11:19 PM PDT by Claud
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