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Look Again At The Frost Facts...And Don't Back Down
freeper research, Baltimore Sun, Others ^ | 10-11-07 | icwhatudo

Posted on 10/11/2007 11:19:24 AM PDT by icwhatudo

Conservatives often complain that republicans back down, that they have no spine, that they wilt when faced with criticism of "but its for the children!" Will the fight over the S-CHIP expansion veto be a repeat?

Many media outlets and left wing blogs are crowing about all the supposed falsehoods contained in my original post.

Before you go running for the hills, tail between your legs, can we at least take a look at each and every point made in that post? You know, the one that "attacks a 12 year old boy".

I keep hearing how all my info was wrong, how it was all debunked as lies etc etc etc... but really there was only 1 major thing i was off on- the family paid a lower tuition amount at the exclusive Park school due to financial aid. This does not change the fact they are still paying for private school, just at a lower rate, while others are paying for their kids health care costs.

So that's what I was off on. Lets see what I got right:

"Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bush’s reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD.

100% true


"Graeme was in a severe car accident three years ago, and received care paid for by the government program known as SCHIP-(State Children's Health Insurance Program)"

100% true


"I was in a coma for a week and couldn't eat or stand up or even talk. My sister was even worse," Graeme wrote. "My parents work really hard and always make sure my sister and I have everything we need, but we can't afford private health insurance."

Direct quote from article


"His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school prior to the accident"

100% true and now we learn that all 4 attended private school. After the accident, Gemma began attending a new special needs school paid for by the state.


meaning the family was able to come up with nearly $40,000 per year for tuition for these 2 grade schoolers.

Dealt with above.


Confirmation both attended Park found here using edit-"find on this page"-Gemma. It will take you to an article in the schools newspaper about a fundraiser for Gemma class of 16, and Graeme class of 13.

100% true


"Here are photos of the school's 44,000 square foot Wyman Arts Center: two galleries, an outdoor ampitheater, Meyerhoff Theater, Macks-Fidler Black Box Theater, practice rooms, rehearsal space, and ceramics, 3-D sculpture, woodworking, jewelry, painting, photography, digital graphics studios, recording studio, and keyboard lab.

100% true


In a Baltimore Sun article the family claims to be raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year."

100% true


"Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband, Halsey, is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work."

Direct quote from article. Somewhat misleading to say he can't get it through work, when he's self employed.


"What the article does not mention is that Halsey Frost has owned his own company "Frostworks",since this marriage announcement in the NY Times in 1992

True, under the name Frostworks to 1999/2000 and then, after working as an architectural designer and manager of a small custom cabinet shop, under a new company name. The Baltimore Sun confirms he is presently self employed.


..."so he chooses to not give himself insurance. He also employed his wife as "bookkeeper and operations management" prior to her recent 2007 hire at the "medical publishing firm".

100% true


As her employer, he apparently denied her health insurance as well.

Unconfirmed, hence the "apparently". Its safe to say she would not have switched jobs away from one that offered health insurance to one that doesn't.


His company, Frostworks, is located at **** E BALTIMORE ST.

Which it was, and is still is according to's business search for cabinet makers. Changing the name you use for your company does not change your business location.


"A building that was purchased for $160,000 in 1999."

100% true


"The buildings owner is listed as DIVERSIFIED INDUSTRIAL DESIGN CENTER, LLC whose mailing address is listed as *** S Collington Ave which is the Frost's home."

100% true


"The commercial property he owns is also listed as the business address for another company called Reillys Designs"

100% true


Which leads to the question of whether rental income is included in the above mentioned salary total.

100% true-The fact they receive rental income has been confirmed but the Baltimore Sun did not ask if it was included in their claimed 45-50k combined "income" (though they did ask for access to a tax return and the Frosts refused.)


"The current market value of their improved 3,040 SF home at *** S Collington Ave is unknown but *** S COLLINGTON AVE, also an end unit, sold for $485,000 this past March and it was only 2,060 SF.

100% true

This has also been a source of many claims of mistaken information. While other blogs or radio shows may have made the mistake of saying all homes in the area sell for 400-500k- or that the Frosts paid 485k for their home, my information was correct. I compared the home to a recently sold SMALLER home only a few doors down that was also an end unit. Citing tax assessments of 260k (which are always lower than market value) is disingenuous. A fellow freeper early in the thread posted a zillow estimate of approximately 350k and Michelle Malkin's infamous "stalking tour" led her to say that estimates of 500k were too high. So much for the idea that the blogger mob were not interested in getting their facts straight. I'm sure all the media trucks Time magazine says are parked near the home will also be called stalkers-right?


"A photo taken in the family's kitchen shows what appears to be a recent remodeling job"

100% true. The home remodeling has been confirmed by the Frosts in the Sun article.


with granite counter tops

FALSE-The kitchen had concrete counters rather than granite. The left is really milking this one and its mention in this AP article was the only example they used from my entire post. This is such a silly point and was simply an observation about the photo the Sun used to show the family... but since even USA Today is making a big deal out of it, sigh, lets take a look:

"Concrete countertops are a custom crafted material for high end use and are often specified by designers or architects.

Consumers, in some cases think of concrete as being a cheaper alternative to other available countertop surfaces. Concrete countertops should be sold (or bought) based on being a beautiful, custom, handmade, relatively unique product. Customers going in thinking the countertops will be low budget items will quickly find out otherwise.

Concrete countertops range from $65 to $125 per square foot.

Granite countertops range from $60-$120 per square foot.

So the funny thing is, according to these links, concrete counters are actually MORE expensive than granite so I don't quite get the left's glee on that one.

I'm sure Olberman will have something to say like "Just when you think this story could not get any lower, we are now reduced to arguing cost differences of granite vs concrete countertops". Yep, it is silly. Maybe the AP and USA Today should stop harping on it and instead focus on whether families of higher means than than the Frosts really need tax payer financed health care.


and glass front cabinets

100% true


One has to wonder that if time and money can be found to remodel a home

100% true


send kids to exclusive private schools,

100% true


purchase commercial property

100% true


and run your own business

100% true


maybe money can be found for other things...

My opinion.


maybe Dad should drop his woodworking hobby and get a real job that offers health insurance rather than making people like me (also with 4 kids in a 600sf smaller house and tuition $16,000 less per kid and no commercial property ownership) pay for it in my taxes.

My opinion. On second look, a bit snippy but the central point is true. There have to be jobs out there with healthplans for someone with:

"over twenty years experience in architectural construction. Fine architectural woodworking/ cabinetmaking Residential and commercial construction. Industrial systems manufacturing, pipefitting, electrical control. Architectural design, CAD 2D & 3D modeling & rendering (Vectorworks/Renderworks)Construction management(All types)."

I know we all would like to be our own boss but sometimes you just have to settle for a good job with health insurance.


Not being a reporter and doing this all in about 3 hours using Google can bring me all the criticism in the world, but to say my info is all lies or has been disproved is not correct. As is the assertion that I somehow "attacked" a 12 year old.

BTW, I hope the Sun spent a little more than 3 hours researching their story.

"I am incredibly thankful," said Frost, who works full time for a medical publishing firm.
Baltimore Sun September 27


"...while Bonnie works part time for a medical publishing firm."
Baltimore Sun October 11, 2007


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: frost; graemefrost; justthefactsmaam; schip; standandfight
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To: Age of Reason
The biggest thing for me for whatever project I do, whether woodworking or home repair/ improvement, or whatever, is personal pride and satisfaction. Its nots the ONLY factor, but it is the largest.

Hard Working Man
Brooks and Dunn

I'm a hard workin' man
I wear a steel hard hat
I can ride, rope, hammer, and paint
Do things with my hands that most men can't
I can't get ahead no matter how hard I try
I'm gettin' really good at barely gettin' by

Got everything I own
By the sweat of my brow
From my four-wheel drive to my cowboy boots
I owe it all to my blue collar roots
I feel like I'm workin' overtime on a runaway train
I've got to bust loose from this ball and chain

I'm a hard, hard workin' man
I got it all on the line
For a piece of the promised land
I'm burnin' my candle at both ends
'Bout the only way to keep the fire goin'
Is to outrun the wind

Come Friday night
I like to party hard
I carry on with the Cadillac cuties
Spend my whole week's pay on some weekend buety
Come Monday mornin' I'm the first to arrive
I ain't nothin' but business from nine till five


I can't wait to get up in the mornin'
And do it all over again
Well I'm a hard livin', hard workin' man

And women too

101 posted on 10/11/2007 7:32:38 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: icwhatudo

Excellent job. These parnets made choices.

102 posted on 10/11/2007 8:01:52 PM PDT by dervish (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem)
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To: italianquaker; icwhatudo
Good investigative work, the kind that newspapers and journalists USE to do. dittoes!
103 posted on 10/11/2007 9:03:00 PM PDT by proud2beconservativeinNJ ("In God We Trust")
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To: AdmSmith; Berosus; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; KlueLass; ...

Halsey Frost And The Shameless Left | October 11, 2007 | Dan Riehl
Posted on 10/11/2007 4:18:59 PM PDT by khnyny

104 posted on 10/11/2007 9:18:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Friday, October 5, 2007.
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To: Son House; Beagle8U; Dr. Bogus Pachysandra; JRochelle; DuncanWaring; Phantom Lord
Someone please explain to me the importance of the accident details. What are you trying to show?

There was/wasn't black ice, so then what?
Husband/wife was diving the vehicle so then what?
Car/SUV so then what?
In/out of 4WD, so then what?
Another car/tree, side/front impact, airbags/side curtains... so then what?
Sat/school so then what?

Answer these questions anyway you like and what does it prove? Why is it relevant to the story of dem poster-family freeloaders supporting their lifestlye on the taxpayer dime?

105 posted on 10/11/2007 11:59:30 PM PDT by HundredDollars
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To: icwhatudo

You’ve done some good work here my FRee State friend. These ninnies are simply attacking you because you’re altering their reality of facts.

My wife and I are independent business owners here in Maryland. We get dragged over the coals by our health insurance providers; paying about 12k a year for our family, then paying a pretty big hit on the deductibles each year, as well. It’s a pretty big chunk of our budget. I’d like to find a better plan, but I wouldn’t leave my family without some kind of provision for this. Forget “assailing” the kid how come the parents aren’t being taken to task for NOT insuring their family. It seems irresponsible to me.

We also send our children to a private school to the tune of 10k, I wouldn’t dare to leave my children in the public schools in our district. This is another big piece of the family budget, but it’s something that we value. If we could not afford it - and we are not wealthy by any means - we would have to homeschool.

This is what we choose to do. I don’t ask other individuals to pick up the tab for my kid and I don’t want to get stuck with the bill for your kid either. Nothing personal.

The folks that are attacking your post ought to do the “grown up” thing and take care of their own families. The Frosts should be taken to task for being so irresponsible, using their kid to shamelessly promote their political agenda, then defending that which is morally wrong once they are called on it. The father isn’t even man enough to take care of his own kids. He wants you and I to do it.

Wow! Being criticized for that has really got to hurt. Maybe not for a lib?

Thanks for your hard work. If you’re being attacked for your observations of the facts, take heart, you’re being attacked by all the right people; the liberal jackasses of the world.

106 posted on 10/12/2007 2:51:01 AM PDT by incredulous joe ("The floggings will continue until the general morale improves." - anon)
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To: HundredDollars

Someone please explain to me the importance of the accident details. What are you trying to show?

Verify facts, and that it wasn’t embellished for the sympathy factor, and if it was embellished it would show the Democrat Majority Press didn’t bother to get it right, again.

107 posted on 10/12/2007 3:15:08 AM PDT by Son House ($$Proud Member of Vast Right Wing, Out To Lower Your Tax Rates For More Opportunities.$$)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra; Beagle8U
"“mother was driving” Yeah. I think you’re right. I read an awful lotta stuff since yesterday, and don’t remember for sure. I’d like to see the accident report regarding black ice."

I don't think you should question the black ice. That might cause Jesse Jackson to call you racist.

Seriously, the parameters around the accident shouldn't be an issue. Regardless of fault, the kids' conditions exist and they clearly need medical help. I think the only issue here is whether they have the financial means and moral obligation to pay for their own insurance, or if the rest of us should have to pay his insurance. The accident, regardless of the specifics, had tragic consequences that his parents should have been addressing beforehand.

Whatever the government gives you, the government can take away from you. They have been bought and paid for by the liberals. The liberals own them now... their votes, their opinions, their support. And the father thinks he is his own boss in his business. He has more bosses running his entire life than I do.

108 posted on 10/12/2007 3:53:37 AM PDT by TN4Liberty (A liberal is someone who believes Scooter Libby should be in jail and Bill Clinton should not.)
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To: icwhatudo
Welcome to the jungle, baby!


I nominate Karen T. of Slime Magazine as the scumbag "reporter" of the year so far.

The competition is tough, though.

You have set a match under the media scam artists and their hysterical screams can be heard from sea to shining sea.

You might want to take a look at some of the "logical fallacy" web sites. They list a whole series of false arguments that are commonly used in the major media--the ad hominem attack, argument by authority, false premise, etc etc etc.

But when the lefties go totally nuts they fall back on Hillary's favorite technique--the naked threat.

"We will destroy you."

That is their ultimate argument--and their best one.

As I say, welcome to the jungle.
109 posted on 10/12/2007 4:03:06 AM PDT by cgbg ("I give you health care and I say 'no smoking'". "Yassah Miss Hillary.")
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To: mountn man
Didn't your mother ever teach you that farting in public is rude? ----------- An individual still has to buy relatively expensive equipment. 1-2 cabinet saws at $2000+, 1-2 bandsaws at $2000+, drumsander, drill press, shaper or routers, air filter, dust collector, and other machines and tools and accessories. It would cost $10,000 just for the hobbyist/small business man to get started for equipment, and that number would easily double or triple for that hobbyist/ small business man to really get serious.

Did your mother ever theach you to read the article before posting. The guy is a custom carpenter already and owns his own custom carpentry business. One would have to assume that he already has all the shop tools and the skill to make his own cabinets. I have friends who have done the same and have made better cabinets for a small fraction of the cost of the press board crap you find in those big box stores.

110 posted on 10/12/2007 4:38:21 AM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: icwhatudo
100% true

And therein lies their problem...

111 posted on 10/12/2007 4:43:17 AM PDT by johnny7 ("But that one on the far left... he had crazy eyes")
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To: Ditto
I read the entire article.

I have what most would consider a pretty good shop setup. I know what it costs to build oak or maple cabinetry, or tables and chairs. To save $1000 on what would have been $5000 means I have an extra $1000 for something else, but I ain't building cabinets at a small fraction of the price.

Just for reference sake, good cabinet grade plywood costs about $45 up to $90 for the really good stuff. 4 sides can be gotten out of one sheet. Now you have the face and door back bottom and top, and maybe a drawer. Plus hardware.

If you have friends who built their cabinets for a small fraction than what can be purchased at Lowes, then they used crap wood and hardware. Otherwise they're blowing smoke at you.

112 posted on 10/12/2007 6:01:13 AM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: mountn man
If you read the article, why did you assume in your last post that the guy had to go out and buy thousands of dollars in shop equipment first?

I do smell smoke.

113 posted on 10/12/2007 6:09:28 AM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: mountn man; Ditto
If you have friends who built their cabinets for a small fraction than what can be purchased at Lowes, then they used crap wood and hardware.

But can we be sure Lowes uses first class materials?

114 posted on 10/12/2007 10:43:39 AM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: Ditto
I didn't assume that he had to go out and by any equipment. If he had all the equipment he needed, so that he didn't have to buy any, he'd still have to spend money on material. The point I'm trying to make is that for the cost of material alone, one is not going to build comparable or better cabinets at a small fraction of the cost that they can be bought for.

The point I was trying to make earlier about tools, is that the cabinet making firms have large automated machines, that can do large quantities at very fast rates, driving production costs down. Meaning that cabinets can get cheaper and cheaper to produce, and cheaper to sell.

Their material costs are already below 50% of what a small time operator can get.

All this means that a producer can market their product for about the same or a little more than an individual can actually buy the material itself for.

The only time an individual can build cabinets for 1/10 the cost of bought cabinets, which you claimed earlier can be done, is when building your own cabinets versus higher end custom made cabinets. At this point the cost isn't in the material as much as its in the workmanship. When your at this level of cabinetry, Billyjo Bob working out of his garage better be alot more skilled than nailing studs together and measuring in 1/16's of an inch and calling it good, and then claiming that his cabinets are just as good or better than crap that can be bought.

115 posted on 10/12/2007 1:28:06 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: icwhatudo


116 posted on 10/12/2007 1:32:01 PM PDT by VOA
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To: Age of Reason
Lowes doesn't build their own cabinets. At least that I know of. Your buying stuff like Merrilat, Schrock, and Kraft Made. And no they aren't buying the "best" material. Depending on the grade of cabinet can depend on the grade of materials used.

But since these manufacturers are producing items in such "HUGE" quantities, they buy their materials considerably less, than what a small time hobbyist could buy them at, for the same quality.

In order for the individual to cut costs to save that much, there is only one place to cut costs, and thats with the material you buy, and its quality.

117 posted on 10/12/2007 1:35:46 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: Phantom Lord

RE: numerous versions of how private school is paid off

I’ve got to hand it to Democrats/Lieberals.
They are “artful dodgers” when it comes to constant revision of
their explanations!

118 posted on 10/12/2007 1:39:46 PM PDT by VOA
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To: mountn man
The only time an individual can build cabinets for 1/10 the cost of bought cabinets, which you claimed earlier can be done, is when building your own cabinets versus higher end custom made cabinets.

Well thank you for catching up with me. I, and I think it's fair to say the original poster of this thread were operating under the assumption that they are a custom job that he guessed must have cost a bundle. I pointed out that it's also safe to assume the guy not only has the equipment necessary but after years in the business, also has the skill required to build custom cabinets. Beyond that, if custom carpentry is his business, I find it unlikly he would even want off-the-shelf stuff for his own home when he could do custom for the same or less.

My only point was that it's entirely possible that they did not spend a bundle of money on the kitchen as the originater of the thread implied and I advised that he should avoid that line of reasoning. Then, out of the blue, someone accused me of farting in the forum.

119 posted on 10/12/2007 2:04:25 PM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: Age of Reason
Would stainless steel be a good idea for a counter-top?

It's not something most women would like, given that it is cold and makes a very unpleasant noise when something is placed on it. And if my stainless sink is any example, it's not that easy to polish out scratches, either, which would not happen all over the counter evenly, but only in high-use spots.

120 posted on 10/12/2007 2:43:58 PM PDT by Albion Wilde (America: “the most benign hegemon in history.”—Mark Steyn)
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