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Look Again At The Frost Facts...And Don't Back Down
freeper research, Baltimore Sun, Others ^ | 10-11-07 | icwhatudo

Posted on 10/11/2007 11:19:24 AM PDT by icwhatudo

Conservatives often complain that republicans back down, that they have no spine, that they wilt when faced with criticism of "but its for the children!" Will the fight over the S-CHIP expansion veto be a repeat?

Many media outlets and left wing blogs are crowing about all the supposed falsehoods contained in my original post.

Before you go running for the hills, tail between your legs, can we at least take a look at each and every point made in that post? You know, the one that "attacks a 12 year old boy".

I keep hearing how all my info was wrong, how it was all debunked as lies etc etc etc... but really there was only 1 major thing i was off on- the family paid a lower tuition amount at the exclusive Park school due to financial aid. This does not change the fact they are still paying for private school, just at a lower rate, while others are paying for their kids health care costs.

So that's what I was off on. Lets see what I got right:

"Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bush’s reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD.

100% true


"Graeme was in a severe car accident three years ago, and received care paid for by the government program known as SCHIP-(State Children's Health Insurance Program)"

100% true


"I was in a coma for a week and couldn't eat or stand up or even talk. My sister was even worse," Graeme wrote. "My parents work really hard and always make sure my sister and I have everything we need, but we can't afford private health insurance."

Direct quote from article


"His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school prior to the accident"

100% true and now we learn that all 4 attended private school. After the accident, Gemma began attending a new special needs school paid for by the state.


meaning the family was able to come up with nearly $40,000 per year for tuition for these 2 grade schoolers.

Dealt with above.


Confirmation both attended Park found here using edit-"find on this page"-Gemma. It will take you to an article in the schools newspaper about a fundraiser for Gemma class of 16, and Graeme class of 13.

100% true


"Here are photos of the school's 44,000 square foot Wyman Arts Center: two galleries, an outdoor ampitheater, Meyerhoff Theater, Macks-Fidler Black Box Theater, practice rooms, rehearsal space, and ceramics, 3-D sculpture, woodworking, jewelry, painting, photography, digital graphics studios, recording studio, and keyboard lab.

100% true


In a Baltimore Sun article the family claims to be raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year."

100% true


"Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband, Halsey, is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work."

Direct quote from article. Somewhat misleading to say he can't get it through work, when he's self employed.


"What the article does not mention is that Halsey Frost has owned his own company "Frostworks",since this marriage announcement in the NY Times in 1992

True, under the name Frostworks to 1999/2000 and then, after working as an architectural designer and manager of a small custom cabinet shop, under a new company name. The Baltimore Sun confirms he is presently self employed.


..."so he chooses to not give himself insurance. He also employed his wife as "bookkeeper and operations management" prior to her recent 2007 hire at the "medical publishing firm".

100% true


As her employer, he apparently denied her health insurance as well.

Unconfirmed, hence the "apparently". Its safe to say she would not have switched jobs away from one that offered health insurance to one that doesn't.


His company, Frostworks, is located at **** E BALTIMORE ST.

Which it was, and is still is according to's business search for cabinet makers. Changing the name you use for your company does not change your business location.


"A building that was purchased for $160,000 in 1999."

100% true


"The buildings owner is listed as DIVERSIFIED INDUSTRIAL DESIGN CENTER, LLC whose mailing address is listed as *** S Collington Ave which is the Frost's home."

100% true


"The commercial property he owns is also listed as the business address for another company called Reillys Designs"

100% true


Which leads to the question of whether rental income is included in the above mentioned salary total.

100% true-The fact they receive rental income has been confirmed but the Baltimore Sun did not ask if it was included in their claimed 45-50k combined "income" (though they did ask for access to a tax return and the Frosts refused.)


"The current market value of their improved 3,040 SF home at *** S Collington Ave is unknown but *** S COLLINGTON AVE, also an end unit, sold for $485,000 this past March and it was only 2,060 SF.

100% true

This has also been a source of many claims of mistaken information. While other blogs or radio shows may have made the mistake of saying all homes in the area sell for 400-500k- or that the Frosts paid 485k for their home, my information was correct. I compared the home to a recently sold SMALLER home only a few doors down that was also an end unit. Citing tax assessments of 260k (which are always lower than market value) is disingenuous. A fellow freeper early in the thread posted a zillow estimate of approximately 350k and Michelle Malkin's infamous "stalking tour" led her to say that estimates of 500k were too high. So much for the idea that the blogger mob were not interested in getting their facts straight. I'm sure all the media trucks Time magazine says are parked near the home will also be called stalkers-right?


"A photo taken in the family's kitchen shows what appears to be a recent remodeling job"

100% true. The home remodeling has been confirmed by the Frosts in the Sun article.


with granite counter tops

FALSE-The kitchen had concrete counters rather than granite. The left is really milking this one and its mention in this AP article was the only example they used from my entire post. This is such a silly point and was simply an observation about the photo the Sun used to show the family... but since even USA Today is making a big deal out of it, sigh, lets take a look:

"Concrete countertops are a custom crafted material for high end use and are often specified by designers or architects.

Consumers, in some cases think of concrete as being a cheaper alternative to other available countertop surfaces. Concrete countertops should be sold (or bought) based on being a beautiful, custom, handmade, relatively unique product. Customers going in thinking the countertops will be low budget items will quickly find out otherwise.

Concrete countertops range from $65 to $125 per square foot.

Granite countertops range from $60-$120 per square foot.

So the funny thing is, according to these links, concrete counters are actually MORE expensive than granite so I don't quite get the left's glee on that one.

I'm sure Olberman will have something to say like "Just when you think this story could not get any lower, we are now reduced to arguing cost differences of granite vs concrete countertops". Yep, it is silly. Maybe the AP and USA Today should stop harping on it and instead focus on whether families of higher means than than the Frosts really need tax payer financed health care.


and glass front cabinets

100% true


One has to wonder that if time and money can be found to remodel a home

100% true


send kids to exclusive private schools,

100% true


purchase commercial property

100% true


and run your own business

100% true


maybe money can be found for other things...

My opinion.


maybe Dad should drop his woodworking hobby and get a real job that offers health insurance rather than making people like me (also with 4 kids in a 600sf smaller house and tuition $16,000 less per kid and no commercial property ownership) pay for it in my taxes.

My opinion. On second look, a bit snippy but the central point is true. There have to be jobs out there with healthplans for someone with:

"over twenty years experience in architectural construction. Fine architectural woodworking/ cabinetmaking Residential and commercial construction. Industrial systems manufacturing, pipefitting, electrical control. Architectural design, CAD 2D & 3D modeling & rendering (Vectorworks/Renderworks)Construction management(All types)."

I know we all would like to be our own boss but sometimes you just have to settle for a good job with health insurance.


Not being a reporter and doing this all in about 3 hours using Google can bring me all the criticism in the world, but to say my info is all lies or has been disproved is not correct. As is the assertion that I somehow "attacked" a 12 year old.

BTW, I hope the Sun spent a little more than 3 hours researching their story.

"I am incredibly thankful," said Frost, who works full time for a medical publishing firm.
Baltimore Sun September 27


"...while Bonnie works part time for a medical publishing firm."
Baltimore Sun October 11, 2007


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: frost; graemefrost; justthefactsmaam; schip; standandfight
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To: icwhatudo

The Democrats tried to deceive the voters. (As usual...sigh!)

They tried to sell voters a SKUNK disguised as a “cute puppy dog.”

Their new SCHIP program was not the same child-centric program which Graeme Frost said helped him.

Bush was willing to increase funding by $5 billion for the SCHIP program which helped Graeme.

If Democrats wanted Bush to sign an act which helps kids, they should have given him an act which helps kids.

141 posted on 10/13/2007 12:23:10 PM PDT by syriacus (Gore deserves THE HORNSWOGGLE FLEECE PRIZE)
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To: JRochelle
"Black Ice" around Baltimore?

I know exactly when that accident happened! Lots of wrecks that night. Cars were pushed along the ice by the wind! Weird. And a very geographically limited phenomenon.

142 posted on 10/13/2007 2:17:23 PM PDT by Zerodown (Draft Petraeus. Let's win this one.)
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To: Age of Reason

Stainless steel is great, and if you get it with a lip, you can put wood inserts in it. Wood is porous, so you have to clean it well, but it’s easy to clean, sand down to a new surface, or replace, and you can afford some striking grain if you’re only going to use it for a few square feet. Make sure you use an edible oil to seal the wood, and clean the joints and steel underneath regularly. If you really like to cook, a lot of the new surfaces can’t take the heat, scratches or stains of active chefs.

143 posted on 10/13/2007 2:28:30 PM PDT by VanShuyten ("Of course, a fool, what with sheer fright and fine sentiments, is always safe.")
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To: Son House

I hate to pile on but I read earlier that the children weren’t belted. Anybody else see that?

144 posted on 10/13/2007 2:38:08 PM PDT by Belasarius (Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward. Job 5:2-7)
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To: Albion Wilde

Good stainless steel should not rust.

That’s the whole point of stainless.

If I remember correctly, a magnet will not stick to good stainless.

If a magnet does stick to something that is supposed to be stainless, then it isn’t pure stainless, and it contains iron, which will rust.

The scratch part is interesting, but only if it makes the counter harder to clean, that is, only if the scratches are deep enough to hold dirt.

I see a kitchen as a factory—make food, leave, and turn off the light ASAP.

Providing the waterspots are not permanent, I see no harm in them.

Restaurants and ship galleys use stainless extensively—so I would think it must be very utilitarian.

145 posted on 10/13/2007 3:14:23 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: Phantom Lord
In my previously life as a chef I would say yes. Commercial kitchens are virtually 100% SS. Cleaning is very easy. Infact you don't need any fancy cleaner, regardless of what SS appliance makers say. Plain old water with clorox in it is all you need.

Reminds me, I remember hearing that boiling water is good for cleaning off any fingerprints--not that I expect prints to be a problem (the few cabinets I have will have handles, which handles I suspect will not show fingerprints if the handles have no flat surfaces).

Now, there are some disadvantages unless they are purpose built. Just a straight sheet of stainless won't work. Cutting boards slide all over. What you have done is get cutting boards made to how you want them for where you want them and have SS 'pegs' welded to the countertop and holes drilled in the cutting boards to match them. They won't go anywhere.

The pegs would get in the way of wiping down the countertop, which would be a minor nusiance, but not tha bad. Maybe I could figure something better out, if not, then the pegs are a great idea; thanks for the tip.

Plus, if you really want to have fun, do from the countertops down stainless, get a tile floor, and have a couple drains put in the floor. Then you can clean the kitchen with a hose!

Oh--no cabinest under the counters for me.

And NO tile on the floor--I despise tile, not so much for the tile, but for the grout and seams between the tiles, which is miserable stuff.

I was thinking of sheet linoleum or vinyl in one big piece (I will instruct the architect to make the floor as square as possible, with no fancy moldings along the baseboard and door openings, to make cutting the sheet to fit easier.

Having no cabinets under the counters makes maintenence easier (especially of the plumbing, which I plan to be visible), and when something spills, little chance it might get under the cabinets where it can't be got at.

As for a drain in the floor and hosing everything down--that would be wonderful.

ACtually, it would be great if I could go at my bathrooms with a steam cleaner.

(believe it or not, except for ultilitarian rooms like baths and kitchens, the house I intend to build will be a repro of an 18th century design).

146 posted on 10/13/2007 3:34:51 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: Age of Reason

My stainless cabinets rusted at the inner corners of the door openings where some other soldering compound had been used to seal the joints. The water spots were probably due to the smooth surface, whereas some people order the matte surface. Any steel surface will show scratches.

You seem to have your heart set on them, so just discount everything I’ve said about water spots and an unpleasant sound and the other poster said about fingerprints, because what do we know?

147 posted on 10/13/2007 3:35:01 PM PDT by Albion Wilde (America: “the most benign hegemon in history.”—Mark Steyn)
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To: Albion Wilde
You seem to have your heart set on them, so just discount everything I’ve said about water spots and an unpleasant sound and the other poster said about fingerprints, because what do we know?

It's not that I'm discounting them, it's just that water spots, fingerprints, and sound are not important to me.

Rust is another matter, and I intend to remember your info about the sealed joints rusting--that's extremely valuable information for me to question the manufacturer about.

148 posted on 10/13/2007 3:50:45 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: AppyPappy
I am by no means a CPA, but I am a businessman...

My general understanding about the current tax code is that if you receive, income, revenue, or money from whatever source, there is a very strong potential that with a few exceptions, that money is subject to taxation. It could be taxed as income, taxed as a gift if it meets the criteria, or taxed under an array other taxable attachments that are built into the current tax code. If you are really playing it straight under the code, and someone “gives you money” or pays bills for you, like grandparents paying for children’s tuition for private schools, etc... without the anticipation of being repaid, I think you might have to call that income, at worst, a gift at best.... I believe that you have a taxable event, especially if its a large amount of money provided to you over an extended period of time...

So, with that said, we need a good CPA to inform us as to how the amount of money being paid by anyone, for which the Frosts experience benefit for example in tuition offset or payment on behalf of the Frosts, is handled under the tax code...

After all, if they are receiving tens of thousands of dollars each year in tuition assistance from let’s say grandparents, is that money received each year required to be(1) included in their tax filings as additional income, (2) added to their income considered in their qualification requirements under the program?

Look I don’t want any ill will to come to these nice people, all I want is the truth to prevail in this process. If they are cutting corners anywhere, especially since they have chosen voluntarily to enter the public discourse using “their situation" to make a statement about policy that effects all of us, they are not exempt from being held accountable if it is found they should be...

Is there a CPA that can answer these questions for us?

149 posted on 10/13/2007 4:45:11 PM PDT by SterlingSilver (If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its a duck!)
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To: NonValueAdded

Concrete countertops ARE a DIY project, for someone willing to take the time. We’d considered doing them in our home here in MA, but since we’ve decided to sell next year, and move South, we’re going with quartz. Apparently concrete countertops are not as acceptable in the average Colonial here in the Northeast. But they can be done; I attended a seminar and demonstration given by Fu Tung Cheng at a Builder’s Trade Show in Worcester a few years ago. It’s not rocket science, and with some time and effort, a nice product can result, at MUCH less than $100/sq. ft.

150 posted on 10/14/2007 8:23:19 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: icwhatudo


151 posted on 10/14/2007 8:31:58 PM PDT by PGalt
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To: Son House
Need to see an accident report to verify if the ‘black ice’ is even true.

An announcement from the Baltimore Law Firm of Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe reports that they are amending the Frost's accident report and intend to file a pro bono claim accusing the tree of reckless endangerment by growing too close to the road.

152 posted on 10/15/2007 6:59:08 PM PDT by RoadKingSE
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To: 70th Division

The Frost children attend the school on scholarships. The parents pay $500 per year for their education.

153 posted on 10/17/2007 8:36:37 AM PDT by Waitin4Godot2
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To: Phantom Lord

I know next to nothing about the Frosts, but if they had a business and minimally insured cars, they were playing with fire. An auto accident with another party can mean a lawyer plundering all your business goods, unless you have the business structured properly. They owed it to themselves to overinsure the cars, but it sounds like their other decisions weren’t so great either. OK, but don’t make me or other taxpayers pay for your poor decisions.

154 posted on 10/17/2007 2:23:56 PM PDT by TenthAmendmentChampion (Global warming is to Revelations as the theory of evolution is to Genesis.)
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion

I wonder if there is any connection to the Frost family in Miami (quite liberal, I believe) that has donated lots of money to the University of Miami?

155 posted on 10/17/2007 3:24:22 PM PDT by Sigurdrifta
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To: icwhatudo; KarlInOhio; jimrob; Buckhead
Does Free Republic have an annual Buckhead trophy? If it does, then you are in the lead for the 2007 one.

If not...... there *should* be!

156 posted on 10/17/2007 3:30:39 PM PDT by NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
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157 posted on 10/18/2007 1:21:21 AM PDT by zip (((Remember: DimocRat lies told often enough become truth to 48% of all Americans (NRA)))))
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To: SterlingSilver
Late to this thread. I am a CPA, no longer in public practice, and never a tax accountant. So take this a whatever value you want.

But as I understand it, the scholarships are not income, as long as the dollars are never received directly by the taxpayer. The private school tuition is not deductible (at least for Federal taxes, don’t know about MD). And if the school charges you a rate different than what others pay, that is not income to you.

Even if the grandparents are paying the full tuition, I don’t believe that you have a taxable event for the parents, as long as the payment was made to the school and not to the parents.

158 posted on 10/25/2007 12:59:35 PM PDT by MTinMN
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