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The 'cold civil war' in the U.S.: The common space required for civil debate...(MARK STEYN)
MacLean's, Toronto, Ontario, Canada ^ | 22 October 2007 | Mark Steyn

Posted on 10/22/2007 6:40:16 PM PDT by dufekin

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To: FFranco
Analysis of voting patterns in Germany leading up to 1933 shows the electorate becoming more and more radicalized. They were abandoning centrist parties and moving to the radical left and right, the Communists and Nazis.

And I would guess that further analysis would show the split to be between those that thought they had a right to other people's stuff, versus the old middle class who wanted to keep what they had

141 posted on 10/24/2007 3:56:15 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty)
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To: Billthedrill

Yet another example of why it always pays to read the responses in a Mark Steyn thread.


142 posted on 10/24/2007 3:59:39 AM PDT by Dr.Deth
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To: SauronOfMordor
Also factor in the economic collapse/hyperinflation of the Weimar years. Economic depression can make a society go off the rails, if it was unbalanced before. IOW, it ratchets up the problems, magnifies the social ills, boils the water in the social stew pot.

That’s my biggest worry for the USA over the next few years, that an economic downturn/recession/depression will lead to social conflagration as demagogues exploit people’s fears and ignorance.

143 posted on 10/24/2007 5:37:36 AM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: SauronOfMordor

Whichever side they picked, Communist or Nazi, they lost.


144 posted on 10/24/2007 12:38:44 PM PDT by FFranco
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To: dufekin
Suppose it's another 50/50 election with a narrow GOP victory dependent on the electoral college votes of one closely divided state. It's not hard to foresee those stickered Dems concluding that the system has now been entirely delegitimized.

I suspect that there will be an attempt to set up a "government in exile" much like what was done in the Mexican election.

145 posted on 10/24/2007 3:55:23 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: bvw

Pretty fair assesment.

But I suspect things are going to be moving a lot more faster nowadays than the 1800’s.


146 posted on 10/24/2007 4:07:03 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Fishrrman
Sounds the the premise for the book “Prayer for the Assassins”.
147 posted on 10/24/2007 4:11:37 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: FFranco; Travis McGee

I read the Thomas work last year. McGee, pick up it sometime.

The big difference is that Spain in the 1930’s was a proxy war between Germany and the USSR. We don’t (yet anyway) have the same situation.


148 posted on 10/24/2007 4:16:15 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: FFranco
Whichever side they picked, Communist or Nazi, they lost.

Europe was ripe for an ideological bloodbath. If Hitler had never existed, and Stalin overran Europe, the deaths of "ideological undesirables" would have probably been at least as numerous as the death toll from the Nazis (although the ethnic composition would have been different)

149 posted on 10/24/2007 4:26:25 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty)
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To: Travis McGee
Also factor in the economic collapse/hyperinflation of the Weimar years. Economic depression can make a society go off the rails, if it was unbalanced before. IOW, it ratchets up the problems, magnifies the social ills, boils the water in the social stew pot.

Part of the problem was that the Red-supporting labor unions were able to force employers to make their salaries do a better job of keeping up with hyperinflation than the old middle class did. It caused enormous resentment for the old middle class to see themselves as now poor, while blue-collar workers were now economically not as bad off

150 posted on 10/24/2007 4:29:31 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty)
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To: redgolum

The Spanish Civil War did morph into a proxy war, but it didn’t begin that way. Even without the German and Soviet arms, it would have been a horror show.


151 posted on 10/24/2007 5:52:08 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: SauronOfMordor

I hadn’t considered that. Good point, it’s another social fault line to ponder.


152 posted on 10/24/2007 5:53:18 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee

The Spanish Civil War started as an attempted coup d’etat by the army and nationalists against the government. It was supposed to be relatively bloodless, but that failed and the general (I have forgotten his name) who was the original coup leader was captured and executed by government forces.

After that, it devolved into the Spanish Civil War we know, with Franco assuming leadership of the rebel forces.


153 posted on 10/24/2007 7:16:51 PM PDT by FFranco
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To: FFranco; SauronOfMordor

>>They were abandoning centrist parties and moving to the radical left and right, the Communists and Nazis.

That’s a European “left and right”, which has little to do with how Americans tend to view “left and right”.

See the third quote on my FR home page, the two paragraph one by Hayek, for comments on the German Communists and Nazis by a contemporaneous observer.


154 posted on 10/25/2007 4:24:17 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: Travis McGee

Today, I’m thinking the similar fault line would be public employees (maybe or maybe not unionized, but likely so) vs. private employees.


155 posted on 10/25/2007 4:28:53 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: FreedomPoster

What about debt divisions?


156 posted on 10/25/2007 4:36:01 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger

I’d say that’s another possible division / fault line, but not the one likely to be analogous to the blue collar / white collar one during the Weimar inflation.

There will be plenty of people with debt problems on both sides of the public/private divide.


157 posted on 10/25/2007 4:40:38 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: papertyger; FreedomPoster

A clear division will between private sector and govt employees and retirees. Private pension funds will go belly up, putting folks on the street, while those with govt salaries and pensions continue to be paid.

How this breaks out also depends on whether an economic crash goes the hyperinflation or deflation route, which are the opposite sides of the same coin, depending on govt policy choices in the face of depression.


158 posted on 10/25/2007 5:00:47 AM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: FreedomPoster
There will be plenty of people with debt problems on both sides of the public/private divide.

Not disagreeing. I'm just speculating an analog. Those servicing debt against productive assets vs. non productive.

159 posted on 10/25/2007 5:10:26 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: exit82
A house divided against itself cannot stand. Shades of 1860 indeed.

From what Lincoln said in the Gettysburg Address, he seemed to think that the divided house that could not stand occurred when one side left. I think the house divided that will not stand is when you have two large factions within the same country that have mutually exclusive visions for governing that country.

160 posted on 10/25/2007 5:33:59 AM PDT by fewz (Socialism is share cropping for the government.)
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