Skip to comments.Everything that is was created 6,010 years ago TODAY!
Posted on 10/23/2007 3:07:36 PM PDT by balch3
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I agree that God is not bound by time, but I do not think we can hold God to 1000 yrs=1day. It’s true as you say, to God time is meaningless. I will still hold that they are not a literal 1000 yrs, while I do hold the precepts, doctrine , and history of the Bible as being literally true, I believe that those that wrote it under God’s direction utilized common literary devices, such as hyperbole and metaphors to illustrate their points.
Hundreds of Billions of years. ~ Grunthor
Quite a trick, considering the universe is only 13 billion or so years old...
You’re exactly right. The entire universe IS a parable. We can learn a lot about God, and about ourselves from it. We deal with the consequences of our actions every time we bury someone we love. Someone once said that the only man made things in Heaven are Jesus’ scars.
Time also slows to a singularity. An Earth day at the speed of light can seem like eternity.
1000 yrs to 1 day would only be 70,000 years - which of course, is way to young for the 4.6 billion year old planet.
It was every bit as relevant an answer as if I’d said 6,000 years.
3And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
And Isaiah 40:31
31But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Taken literally the first passage suggested that God has eagles wings, and the second suggests that if we wait on God we will. The first actually illustrates God bringing us to himself, the second illustrates that God will give strength to those that put their trust in him.
Unless the planet is not 4.6 billion years old, as we have been led to believe.
what I’m saying is that when the universe was pushed into our universe, and according to the Bible, once upon a time, our “universe” consisted of the earth only. And at first it was covered in liquid water on day one which would have meant that the temperature was quite pleasant. I would bet my life that in the reference frame God was using to measure time, the creation event, the unfolding of space and the setting up of the universe (which reminds me of when we unzip a piece of software, or when a single cell divides into what it was programmed to become (and after all Jesus is called the “author” of life), I would bet my life that His stopwatch measure 7 24-hour periods. That much is certain. God exists outside of space and time. Good luck trying to have a conversation with Him about time.
Jesus told the jews that Abraham loved Him. And so the jews said, sure, you’re not yet 50 years old, and Abraham had been dead for hundreds of years. Sure, you met him, they sneered. So Jesus said, before Abraham was, I am. SO He literally meant that He, Jesus, was standing speakign to those jews, but He was also standing hundreds of years before in a different time period. There is only one being that can exist in multiple time frames, and that is God, which is why the jews picked up stones to kill Him. Leviticus teaches that if a man claimed to be God, you had to stone Him. They understood about relativity in those days, to an extent.
I didn’t get it until I read your later posts...
I am sorry to hear that. Even though I do not understand why some things are the way they are, I still will never put my faith on the cornerstone of men’s knowledge.
If all distances shrink to zero, then why does it take different, measureable amounts of time for light from the Sun to reach each planet in our Solar System?
I forgot to add this part. When taken in context that verse means nothing what intelligent design people want it to. Simply put, Peter is calling for patience. We humans have no patience and our timetables and desires are not the same as Gods. Please read:
2 Peter 3
The Day of the Lord
1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation. 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by Gods word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
What I don’t understand is professing Christians who still hold to evolution, and an old earth, when the Bible clearly states that there was no death before Adam sinned. They pick and choose the parts of scripture they wish to believe, and just so they won’t have to defend their faith (if they have any at all), or to be accepted by their worldly friends, they compromise with a lie that denies the Word of God.
Have you been to other planets? Have you measured the time it takes light to go from the sun to those planets?
... crickets ...
I didn't think so.
As far as we can tell, the stars are moving away from each other at top speed. If they were chained together, they aren’t anymore.
***He split the light beam into its spectra and imposed 7 colors on it simply because 7 was a magic number for him.***
Perhaps it is because there are 3 primary colors and 3 secondary colors.
He just added a complimentary color.
The early church understood Revelation to be metaphoric, and some had to be explained the meanings.
But the Jews, in ancient days, who Genesis was initially written to, never thought of creation in metaphoric terms, because it wasn't written in that style.
I don't read Hebrew, but at times I have translated words and phrases, backed by experts in the language. The one thing I understand about Hebrew vs English is that the language has more meaning to its words than often English does. More can be involved with words than what "we" non Hebrew speakers understand.
Such as John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
We read I am as, Iam this or I am that. But Christ was using I AM, a name that God uses for himself. In essence claiming to be God himself. Which then was followed by John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, [[going through the midst of them, and so passed by.]]
If I am were simply as we read it, it never would have stirred the pharisees to want to kill him.
I do believe the timeline in Genesis is literal. BUT, I understand the whole 1 day is as a thousand years thinking. And though I don't choose to believe it, I think it can be a possibility. Its just not really important when it comes to salvation.
If I heard of a credible source, who was a Hebrew expert, who could explain Genesis being written metaphorically, I might be more accepting of this theory.
But so far as I know, the only arguments I've heard for a day being longer than a day, are people who don't understand fluently Hebrew.
Once again, as far as I know.
Stars do not form in minutes. So observing a star being born is kind of hard. Will take hundreds of years of observation to begin seeing stars forming.
Is this to be taught as Intelligent Design ?
Of course I mean to suggest that ID is in fact a cover for this kind of thinking, which would quickly reveal itself in any program of ID instruction. This is the esoterica for which ID is the exoterica.
“Truth is just truth, you can’t have opinions about truth.” - Peter Shickele
“This is hyperbole. It was never meant as a conversion formula.”
I don’t see it as hyperbole at all. I’d say it means that God, as the Creator of time is out side of it. WE are in it. the 1/1000-1000/1 cancel one another out equaling zero time.
Which brings me to one of my hobby horses:
We already agree that our calendar is wrong, off by anywhere from 2 to 16 years, depending on who’s doing the reckoning, and further in error because of the absence of a year zero.
The more fundamental point is that God did not intend us to mark His years by the birth of Jesus.
If He had intended this we would have a Biblical fixing of the date.
Further, the day of Jesus’ birth is unremarkable as all men are born.
However, very few return from the dead, that event is remarkable, and it is the defining moment of Christianity, the very moment of proof that his sacrifice was not in vain. And the Bible gives a precise reference for when this happened!
Clearly this was the date the calender was supposed to start!
For extra points, this makes our calender off by anywhere from 17 to 30 years. That makes this something like Holy Year 1990 to Holy Year 1977, giving us anywhere from 10 to 23 years to get our affairs in order before the real end of the millennium...
Ping to me also!
I agree that God is not bound by time. I just don’t think we can play hard and fast with the 1000 yrs=1 day thing.
God is God and cannot, will not be categorized, explained and understood by mortal man in this realm.
“Im sorry but I dont believe any of it. I believe in scientific evidence, anything else is open to interpretation.”
The apparent impossibility of some of the assertions of the Bible would be nothing more than a test of Faith. If God is the Author of all things then no amount of scientific proof can stand against the Truth in the bible.
Archaic orthodox view, as in what they ONCE used to believe? A small sub-sect of Judaism at best then. Modern Orthodox mostly not, and all other sects definitely not.
no this isn’t correct, especially those who are not Modern orthodox. Lubavitch, Lakewood...all the major accepted authorities today.
All Orthodox Jews, including modern, date their Jewish legal documents (marriage, divorce, etc) from the beginning of creation. All orthodox Jews believe in a universal flood of Noah.
I, on the other hand, once used to believe that the universe was billions of years old and there is some solid basis for this idea in judaism (and not just a simple 1 day = 1000 year equation which doesn’t really give you billions of years by itself)
http://www.lulu.com/content/86052 by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan that you can download for free
But this is not the mainstream view even though obviously there is some truth to it. That’s why this debate is so crazy :)
well think of it this way. imagine if all the scientists claimed that all the evidence pointed to a very young universe. There would be no question about the Bible and no room for faith.
and your credentials are????
YEAH..YOU INVENTED The INTERNET/CALENDAR/RADIOCARBON DATING...SO MANY STUPID ASSUMPTIONS SO LITTLE TIME.
No such thing as time? What you mean by that?
Apparently not that many.
The Rabbinical Council of America (Orthodox) has maintained that evolutionary theory, properly understood, is not incompatible with belief in a Divine Creator, nor with Genesis.
Prominent Orthodox rabbis who have affirmed that the world is older, and that life has evolved over time, include Aryeh Kaplan (1934-1983), Israel Lipschitz, Sholom Mordechai Schwadron (the MaHaRSHaM) (1835-1911), Zvi Hirsch Chajes(1805-1855).
One of the most prominent writers on this subject in the Orthodox Jewish community is Gerald Schroeder, an Israeli physicist. He has written a number of articles and popular books attempting to reconcile Jewish theology with modern scientific findings that the world is billions of years old and that life has evolved over time. (Genesis and the Big Bang: The Discovery of Harmony Between Modern Science and the Bible) His work has received approbations from a number of Orthodox rabbinic authorities.
Back away from the silly putty; very slowly...
In one of Hawkings many video productions there is a discussion of time. Without going into too many details the summation was that is a convenient human construct that has no existence apart from the human mind.
It is also relative and its determination depends on one’s frame of reference.
If you are serious I will find the actual video discussion but it will have to be later as I have a one year old (actually 13.4 months) to wash.
Peter is being metaphorical to illustrate a point. That verse is always taken out of context.
The Psalmist said that “better is one day in the courts of the Lord than a thousand elsewhere.” He didn’t mean literally 1,000 days, he was using emphasis to make a point.
One need go no further than Genesis to discern the age of the earth.
it did not say with MAN. And to prove it, is one day a thousand years to you? Man. Well it is to the LORD if the Bible is true.
Of course it’s considered ‘span’, it’s a span of time.
states that Ussher calculated Noah’s leaving the Ark to be on:
december 28, 2346 BC
The old family bible gives a date of 2348 BC, with the year turning right at Genesis 8:13 —
I guess it’s possible what I’m looking at is not an Ussher Bible — was there a competing chronology?
Um...that would be because we've been observing the universe scientifically for, at most, a few thousand years...simple laws of physics state that's but the blink of an eye to a star's birth...that's like staring at a glacier for 10 seconds and saying you don't believe glaciers move because you never saw it move.
yes I am certainly familiar with all these views. I gave the link to Rabbi Kaplan.
Schroeder accepts the view that the universe was created in 6 24 hour days but he tries to reconcile with time dilation. I have a few technical problems with that approach.
The RCA represents Modern orthodoxy. They are entitled to that view but practically all chasidic groups, including Lubavitch and most Yeshivas maintain the traditional view.
And all Jews keep Rosh Hashana and date their wedding documents the same way.
That would increase the temperature of Earth to over 1000 degrees. NO human would survive that.
Although...that sounds like the beginnings of a red giant sun to me...I must admit.
We have sent probes to places in the solar system that prove that light travels at a specific, fixed speed because of things like communication delays.
Now THAT is the kind of answer this thread deserves.
Try hundreds of thousands of years.
It would benefit the Creationists greatly if they got off of this “young earth” kick.
Say “yes” to micro-evolution, (adaptation within a species).
Say “Nonsense” to macro-evolution, (a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy)
Pretending to be able to add up the life-spans from Begats and add the “7 days” of Creation, is as obtuse as pretending to be able to distill Revelations.
Challenge the evolutionists to defend the theories they pretend are science.
There is no need to pretend that you ‘do’ have the answers, beyond citing Creation.
Oh yea, I always enjoy my Span with racially insensitive overtones. ;)
I believe that the fish don’t know they’re wet, even the fish with science degrees!