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Abortion isn't a religious issue (And it should not be a political issue says the author)
LA Times ^ | 4 November 2007 | Garry Wills

Posted on 11/04/2007 4:58:54 AM PST by shrinkermd

Evangelicals are adamant, but religion really has nothing to say about the issue

What makes opposition to abortion the issue it is for each of the GOP presidential candidates is the fact that it is the ultimate "wedge issue" -- it is nonnegotiable. The right-to-life people hold that it is as strong a point of religion as any can be. It is religious because the Sixth Commandment (or the Fifth by Catholic count) says, "Thou shalt not kill." For evangelical Christians, in general, abortion is murder. That is why what others think, what polls say, what looks practical does not matter for them. One must oppose murder, however much rancor or controversy may ensue.

But is abortion murder? Most people think not. Evangelicals may argue that most people in Germany thought it was all right to kill Jews. But the parallel is not valid. Killing Jews was killing persons. It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons. Not even evangelicals act as if it were. If so, a woman seeking an abortion would be the most culpable person. She is killing her own child. But the evangelical community does not call for her execution.

About 10% of evangelicals, according to polls, allow for abortion in the case of rape or incest. But the circumstances of conception should not change the nature of the thing conceived. If it is a human person, killing it is punishing it for something it had nothing to do with. We do not kill people because they had a criminal parent.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: abortion; garrywills; moralabsolutes; politics; prolife; religion
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This is a long, tortuously debate that merits serious reading if you are to understand how the pro-choicers think.

I only posted the first three paragraphs. In the artilce there is a section on the Pope allegedly acting only on "natural law" rather than Biblical precedent.

Finally, the article does not mention the ancients, long before Christ, condemned abortion. See the Hippocratic Oath (500 b.c.) prohibition to abortions. Physicians took this oath for thousands of years.

1 posted on 11/04/2007 4:58:56 AM PST by shrinkermd
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: shrinkermd
It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons.

Yes it is.

3 posted on 11/04/2007 5:07:04 AM PST by SittinYonder (Ic ■Št gehate, ■Št ic heonon nelle fleon fotes trym, ac wille fur­or gan)
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To: shrinkermd
It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons.

Go to 1000 couples that are about to have a baby. Ask them if killing their fetus is the same as killing their baby. 100% will say yes.

The definition of murder should not be left to the perpetrator.

4 posted on 11/04/2007 5:07:21 AM PST by SampleMan (Islamic tolerance is practiced by killing you last.)
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To: shrinkermd

Thou shall not kill seems rather straight forward to me.


5 posted on 11/04/2007 5:08:33 AM PST by mort56
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To: shrinkermd

About 10% of evangelicals, according to polls, allow for abortion in the case of rape or incest. But the circumstances of conception should not change the nature of the thing conceived.
-
whatcha talkin about willis? 10% is only 10%.


6 posted on 11/04/2007 5:09:50 AM PST by ari-freedom (I am for traditional moral values, a strong national defense, and free markets.)
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To: shrinkermd
if you are to understand how the pro-choicers think

I'm not interested in "understanding" how pro infanticide liberals "think."

7 posted on 11/04/2007 5:10:26 AM PST by ASA Vet
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To: shrinkermd
Evangelicals may argue that most people in Germany thought it was all right to kill Jews. But the parallel is not valid. Killing Jews was killing persons.

Leftists are such idiots that they don't even understand the crux of the arguments they are making. The fact is that black slavery and the holocaust were both justified on the same principal that this writer is making, that the victims are NOT FULLY HUMAN. What an idiot.

8 posted on 11/04/2007 5:10:35 AM PST by SampleMan (Islamic tolerance is practiced by killing you last.)
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To: shrinkermd
The pro-abortion crowd could be dealt with quite readily if the pro-life crowd made a "one time exception" and rose up and exterminated the pro-abortionists.

Then we (the survivors) could return to being normal people in a normal world with normal rules.

Obviously we are not going to do that. The fact that we do not threaten to do so merely emboldens them, and that's where you get articles like this piece in the LA Times.

9 posted on 11/04/2007 5:10:58 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: shrinkermd
Hello...it’s a political issue because there are already laws governing abortion.

What grade is this author in?

10 posted on 11/04/2007 5:11:09 AM PST by Earthdweller (All reality is based on faith in something.)
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To: SampleMan
Go to 1000 couples that are about to have a baby. Ask them if killing their fetus is the same as killing their baby. 100% will say yes. The definition of murder should not be left to the perpetrator.

Bingo. For abortophiles the fetus is a "person" if the mother wants it, and not a "person" if she doesn't want it. The personhood of the fetus is wholly dependent on the whims of the mother.

11 posted on 11/04/2007 5:12:05 AM PST by HerrBlucher (He's the coolest thing around, gonna shut HRC down, gonna turn it on, wind it up, blow em out, FDT!)
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To: shrinkermd
I do not think the planned murder of the most helpless is a religious issue, it is a moral issue.

A person who has no morals should not be trusted at anything.

12 posted on 11/04/2007 5:12:22 AM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (Remember the Alamo, Goliad and WACO, It is Time for a new San Jacinto)
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To: shrinkermd
Killing Jews was killing persons. It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons.

I'm disappointed in Wills. This is shooting fish in a barrel.

OK, so I redefine the legal term "person" to exclude Jews. Now I can kill all the Jews I want without killing a person.

Neat, huh?

13 posted on 11/04/2007 5:12:27 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: shrinkermd
It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons. Not even evangelicals act as if it were. If so, a woman seeking an abortion would be the most culpable person.

Women kill their babies just so they can fornicate without the 18-yr-long consequences.

14 posted on 11/04/2007 5:12:41 AM PST by Rudder
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To: shrinkermd
But is abortion murder? Most people think not

But is abortion murder? Most people think not. Evangelicals may argue that most people in Germany thought it was all right to kill Jews. But the parallel is not valid. Killing Jews was killing persons. It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons.

The writer makes statements like these without any supporting evidence whatsoever. He doesn't even point out the fact that a pregnant woman will decide her child is a human by giving it a name, decide which schools the baby can go to, the room the baby will have up until the point she decides to have an abortion...then all bets are off and the baby is no longer human according to the psychology of the woman...even though the biology of the baby hasn't chnged. Liberal bull!!!

15 posted on 11/04/2007 5:12:59 AM PST by paltz
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To: shrinkermd
It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons. Not even evangelicals act as if it were. If so, a woman seeking an abortion would be the most culpable person. She is killing her own child. But the evangelical community does not call for her execution.

Of course we don't call for her execution, we would rather see her restored and whole. We preach forgiveness from sin, not vengeance.

16 posted on 11/04/2007 5:13:24 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: shrinkermd

This is Rudy Giuliani propaganda.


17 posted on 11/04/2007 5:13:33 AM PST by TommyDale (Never forget the Republicans who voted for illegal immigrant amnesty in 2007!)
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To: ari-freedom
"whatcha talkin about willis? 10% is only 10%. .. ???

The 1 or 2% of the queers legislate as if there is a vast majority ... the 1 or less % of Islamists take over whole towns and are well on their way to controlling the gum'mint skools ...

Only 10%

18 posted on 11/04/2007 5:16:01 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true.)
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To: SampleMan
Yes it is.

Actually, it isn't. "Person" in this sense is a legal term, not a medical or scientific one.

It thus has no inherent meaning at all, but only what is assigned it by the legal system, which in this case means a single swing voter on the Supreme Court.

What the pro-choice people never seem to realize is that women, Jews, blacks, homosexuals, old people, crippled people and any other of their favorite groups could equally well be classified as non-persons using exactly the same procedure.

19 posted on 11/04/2007 5:16:48 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: shrinkermd
"It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons," says the superstitious Garry Wills.

His ancestors probably used the same humanist defense when enslaving Africans, who were looked upon as less-than-human: "It is not demonstrable that chaining Negroes is chaining persons."

20 posted on 11/04/2007 5:17:04 AM PST by Hornitos
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