Posted on 11/13/2007 8:10:28 PM PST by neverdem
Educators and psychologists have long feared that children entering school with behavior problems were doomed to fall behind in the upper grades. But two new studies suggest that those fears are exaggerated.
One concluded that kindergartners who are identified as troubled do as well academically as their peers in elementary school. The other found that children with attention deficit disorders suffer primarily from a delay in brain development, not from a deficit or flaw.
Experts say the findings of the two studies, being published today in separate journals, could change the way scientists, teachers and parents understand and manage children who are disruptive or emotionally withdrawn in the early years of school. The studies might even prompt a reassessment of the possible causes of disruptive behavior in some children.
“I think these may become landmark findings, forcing us to ask whether these acting-out kinds of problems are secondary to the inappropriate maturity expectations that some educators place on young children as soon as they enter classrooms,” said Sharon Landesman Ramey, director of the Georgetown University Center on Health and Education, who was not connected with either study.
In one study, an international team of researchers analyzed measures of social and intellectual development from over 16,000 children and found that disruptive or antisocial behaviors in kindergarten did not correlate with academic results at the end of elementary school.
Kindergartners who interrupted the teacher, defied instructions and even picked fights were performing as well in reading and math as well-behaved children of the same abilities when they both reached fifth grade, the study found.
Other researchers cautioned that the findings, being reported in the journal Developmental Psychology, did not imply that emotional problems were trivial or could not derail academic success in the years before or after elementary school.
In the other...
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
They come to school with all different kinds of ideas, different discipline. habits etc.
Some wiggle, some giggle, some tap, some yap.
All you have to do is go to a Board Meeting where some wiggle, some giggle, some tap, some yap.
My son's doctor told me this years and years ago, it is particularly the parts of the brain that control impulsiveness and direct organization. Doc also said that puberty would hasten brain development.
He was right. My son is off medication and doing much better. And not a flippin' moment too soon, believe me! Anybody who doesn't believe ADHD exists, I got Exhibit "A" that sez you're wrong. (I used to think it was a made-up disorder, too. Now I just think it's over-diagnosed.)
One day in 6th grade me and a friend took over the entire 500 hall wing, maybe 24 or 30 classrooms. That was also the wing where all the school busses unloaded.
I had gotten there early and something hit me and I slipped something in each set of the entrance doors at each end of the building, and we held on until well after school had started. It was a heck of a scene with many hundreds of people involved and I have rarely if ever seen so many adults so angry.
For better or worse I ended up at freerepublic and my friend was gunned down at 19.
Exactly. For children, one size does not fit all. One of the great things about this nation is that you can be a late bloomer. It isn’t already decided from the time you are in kindergarten what you are going to be in life. Individuality. It’s a wonderful thing.
Suffolk bird flu is H5N1 strain
FReepmail me if you want on or off my health and science ping list.
Yes!
Amen! All through school, everyone was telling my hubby that he should consider himself lucky to one day be the assistant to the assistant garbage collector.
Even when I met him in college,where he was an aimless music performance major, those who knew him would have thought he'd probably end up starving.
It was only after I asked him what he wanted to do that he confessed he liked electronics, but was told he wouldn't be able to handle the math. I encouraged him to give it a shot and helped him learn to study. He finished tech school and then went on to engineering school, and is a truly brilliant engineer.
Now HE is the one who helps our daughter with her calculus.
Thanks.
What a stupid article. Of course bad behavior doesn’t doom one’s educational outlook. If so, we’d have been doomed long ago.
Kids are kids.
The sky is falling in!
They would have every student quietly and attentively sitting at their desks, doing without question or comment what is required of them. Never mind that kids are made to move.
Many kids are bored out of their minds in school, too, and will do ANYTHING to break that boredom.
Instead of looking at kids who act up as troublemakers heading for JD, they should stop and see the potential all that unbridled energy and creativity has and see how they can encourage the kids to develop it, instead of trying to squash it.
Why the heck do they need studies to show the obvious? Sheesh, every time I read one, I keep thinking that there can't be an easier way to make money and I picked the s wrong path.
thanks neverdem. Here’s a different, somewhat related article:
Study Compares States’ Math and Science Scores With Other Countries’
[Some surprises...]
NY Times | November 14, 2007 | SAM DILLON
Posted on 11/14/2007 3:23:57 AM EST by Pharmboy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1925485/posts
The FP, my wife worked for as an office nurse, refused to put boys on drugs for the teachers in just under 3 decades of office practice.
His comment to the whiney female teachers, “If you and Ritalin were around when I was a young boy, I wouldn’t be a doctor today!”
All of the young boys, he refused to dope up are functioning adults today, many with advanced degrees or are highly skilled so called blue collar workers. They are bears like him when the whiney female teachers want to drug their sons.
Why did you write that? Read the first three paragraphs again. The article tries to kill two sacred cows of the educational and psychology/psychiatry establishments, i.e. untoward behavior means poor academic achievement and that symptoms associated with ADHD/ADD should be medicated.
Of course bad behavior doesn’t doom one’s educational outlook. If so, we’d have been doomed long ago.
Tell that to the behavior control freaks. That's what these two studies were trying to do.
Going to school now must be truly awful. I don't know if I could take it. I'm surprised that there are not more school shootings, a entirely recent development that didn't happen before a decade ago, i.e. the kids didn't go psycho before the late 1990s.
You’re welcome.
I tried to make that link open on the comment with the links to the abstracts. I can’t tell for sure from my end. It seems to open on the links when the new, small window opens on the new thread, but it looks off when the new window is fully expanded.
Any technical comments or criticisms will be appreciated.
The finding itself is what makes the study stupid. It’s a kind of ‘No, really?’ impulse.
The finding’s true. Of course. That a study was issued to try and prove otherwise is what’s stupid.
At an assembly in the local public high school, seniors were told they could not conspire to wear the same color on the same day, as classes before them had done (go figure).
Extreme circumstances warrant extreme actions. One of the smartest kids in the bunch listened, stood up amidst his classmates, held up high a bound copy of the Constitution and shouted, “That’s against the Constitution!!!” A near-riot ensued.
Eventually, he won because he was right, and his action was necessary; even if viewed as a behavioral ‘problem’ by some.
Forgot to mention, the brave “bad behavior” kid was accepted at a few northeast Ivies, and went on to the University of Chicago.
The teachers took their students to the doctor's office to get Ritalin prescribed???
You said it. Boys can’t be boys anymore. Everyone wants them to be like girls.
The teachers demanded that the parents of the boys take the boys to their Ped or FP and have/demand the doctor put them on Ritalin. This doctor refused to get on that slippery slope with his patients to satisfy some whiney teacher.
When he refused to Rx Ritaling as per their demands, he sometimes got calls from the teachers’s principals, asking, telling him, demanding or suggesting that he change his mind and rx Ritalin. He told them to back off and to never call him demanding a drug for his patients.
After a couple of years, the word got out that he wouldn’t Rx Ritalin to make whiney teachers happy, and he had few if any requests to silence the boys with Ritalin.
I’m never sure quite what to make of posts like yours. I went to school in the 60s and 70s. The kids were almost all what I would call quietly well behaved, and if not, they were dealt with in ways that would be illegal today.
Fast forward to today. Kids are barely under control. So, what do you mean when you call educators behavior control freaks? Most of us are just trying to keep some sort of order in our classes so that the kids who want to can learn.
susie
While I agree that our culture certainly seems to be doing that, what do you make of the boys (back in the olden days when I was in school) who actually sat through classes? Were they already girls? If so, there were virtually no boys in my classes during the 60s and 70s.
I actually find that we accept much MORE bad behavior in class rooms today than we did 40 years ago. And of course, more of the girls are acting like boys...
susie
I would like some proof of this. I have never known a teacher to get involved between a parent and doctor. Where did this happen? It’s a great story, but I can’t take it on face value without some proof. (and if you’re right, the teachers should certainly have been fired and I’m surprised the doctor didn’t call the teacher’s *boss* and complain.)
susie
I went to Catholic grammar and high schools, graduating in 1969. If someone couldn't deal with the physical discipline, they could go to public school as a last resort.
Fast forward to today. Kids are barely under control. So, what do you mean when you call educators behavior control freaks? Most of us are just trying to keep some sort of order in our classes so that the kids who want to can learn.
Look at the weird order that you apparently support by being a public school teacher. Self esteem is everything, so no games can have winners. They can't play tag, and from what I have heard, they have little physical exercise. Schools that enforce zero tolerance regimes where kids can't draw a picture of a firearm or risk suspension/expulsion. Telling kids to say no to variously prohibited drugs, but rushing to get them prescribed stimulants and/or antidepressants with the first whiff of a behavioral problem. That sounds like child abuse, except it is sanctioned by the public schools.
OK, so by your own admission you don't know what public schools were like. Fair enough. The kids were pretty well behaved and if not, they often saw the business end of a paddle.
Look at the weird order that you apparently support by being a public school teacher. Self esteem is everything, so no games can have winners. They can't play tag, and from what I have heard, they have little physical exercise. Schools that enforce zero tolerance regimes where kids can't draw a picture of a firearm or risk suspension/expulsion. Telling kids to say no to variously prohibited drugs, but rushing to get them prescribed stimulants and/or antidepressants with the first whiff of a behavioral problem. That sounds like child abuse, except it is sanctioned by the public schools.
Not sure what weird order your talking about so, I'll ignore that part of your post. And, no, I'm not a public school teacher anymore. I teach in a private Christian school--you need to be careful with assumptions.
Where did I say anything about self esteem or in fact much of anything in your post? Who were you even responding to?
And, last but not least, did you even read the article? The boy made actual threats. So, tell me, if he threatened your daughter, what would you have the school do? Nothing?
susie
Took me awhile to get back here and post to you. You are making excellent points - all.
Girls are definitely taking on more violent and impulsive qualities, not to mention that they are much more provocative sexually.
I believe the reasons for boys being more disciplined in school in days of yore can be attributed to the following (but please understand that I think boys were pretty bad when I came along - I remember a lot of them receiving corporal punishment).
Okay, here are my reasons for boys being more disciplined “in the day:”
1. Potential for corporal punishment in school (a definite deterrent esp. if your Jr. High Asst. Principal was a former pro football player as I had).
2. Potential for corporate punishment at home (yep, you’d get nailed at school and again at home).
3. Life was more consistent and stable in families far more than today. Discipline and behavior in children is secured by a stable and consistent environment. One of the first things I learned while going to parenting classes and support groups for parents of ADHD kids was that you need to be consistent - consistent - consistent. It helps these kids. Do you see ANY consistency today? Families rarely eat meals together - everyone’s on the goal and everyone has their own schedule (it’s like each person in the family is his own mini-unit or pod).
Okay, just my take.
Oops - re my last post, “goal” should be “go”.
Can’t disagree. Life was different, and it didn’t hurt that most families cared how their kids acted in public. And yes, the boys (and girls—I did get busted once for talking in class) weren’t perfect. But we knew there were likely to be consequences, as you pointed out. It’s hardly so anymore. Parents are now likely to accuse the teacher instead of disciplining their child. Sad really. Life is going to smack these kids in the face. Hard.
susie
You get into patient confidentiality with these issues. If the doctor or his staff went public with the names, they would be a heap of trouble.
The doctor was plagued with these attempts for years and after his stands and private conversations with principals, the teachers and principals backed off.
What is interesting is the Doctor is an old fashioned Democrat, and his wife is a Cal BeZerkley grad. They are not conservatives except in situations like this.
His story is not unusual for California. I have heard the same story from many Doctors in California. We hear parents of boys complaining about the pressure on them to Ritalin their sons by their teachers and principals.
Apparently CA schools ARE different. I know that even back in the early 60s there were problems. My older brother started school there (Dad was stationed out there). My Mom never had anything good to say about the educational system there. I don’t know because I didn’t start until the next year when we had moved to Japan.
susie
In 1977, we move here and both our sons were labeled as hyperactive.
I told the principal if he was worth a damn, he would have good teachers not roll callers and new text books. Their science book and history book noted that the USSR was ahead of America in the rocket/satellite business.
I told the teacher to back off and try teaching instead of yelling. I bought the new books for both classes and told them if they didn’t use them, I would get up in Kiwanis each day to complain. It took only one day of complaining to get the books used.
A friend from church was in charge of the gifted program and got our older son in the program and forced the teacher and principal to back off with him.
Our younger son didn’t qualify for the program and began his hatred of school which culminated when he dropped out his senior year and completed his GED in months.
A year later in 1978 my wife became the office RN for the Doctor, I mentioned and our sons became his patients. That ended their push to Ritalin them.
That was 30 years ago, and the push to label boys as ADS or hyperactive is even more intense. We live waiting for a call from our older Son and DIL saying that are taking our 6 year old grandson out of the First grade because he has been labeled hyperactive for home schooling and can we help. He isn’t ads or hyperactive. He is just a very smart and energectic boy like his Dad was at that age.
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