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Illegal Ron Paul Currency Seized [more deatils, re: the ongoing "Liberty Dollar" follies]
CNN.com ^ | 11/16/2007 | Staff

Posted on 11/16/2007 10:13:07 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

EVANSVILLE, Indiana (AP) — Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.

Agents also took records, computers and froze the bank accounts at the "Liberty Dollar" headquarters during the Thursday raid, Bernard von NotHaus, founder of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code, said in a posting on the group's Web site.

The organization, which is critical of the Federal Reserve, has repeatedly clashed with the federal government, which contends that the gold, silver and copper coins it produces are illegal.

(Excerpt) Read more at politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: bogusbucks; counterfeiting; libertydollar; libertydollars; norfed; nothaus; paulestinians; playmoney; ronpaul
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1 posted on 11/16/2007 10:13:08 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
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To: SJackson; Allegra; wagglebee; darkwing104; Mr. Silverback; drpix; ejonesie22; mnehrling; lormand; ..

Ping! ;)


2 posted on 11/16/2007 10:14:00 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

that’s one problem with gold coins. they are easy to debase and pass off as real money


3 posted on 11/16/2007 10:14:50 AM PST by ari-freedom (I am for traditional moral values, a strong national defense, and free markets.)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

Stories posted yesterday indicated that this company wasn’t necessarily doing anything illegal. So which way is it? Since the story came from CNN I’ll err on the side of a grain of salt.


4 posted on 11/16/2007 10:18:01 AM PST by MarineBrat (My wife and I took an AIDS vaccination that the Church offers.)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
Wendy Osborne, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Indianapolis office, declined to comment and referred all questions to the U.S. attorney's office for the Western District of North Carolina. Suellen Pierce, a spokeswoman for that office, also declined to comment.

Most likely, this means the investigation is still ongoing. There should be more to this story. We'll have to wait and see.


5 posted on 11/16/2007 10:18:46 AM PST by darkwing104 (Let's get dangerous)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

In Ron they trust.


6 posted on 11/16/2007 10:20:44 AM PST by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it! Duncan Hunter is a Cosponsor.)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

Does this mean I should quickly burn my Mickey Money from the Magic Kingdom?


7 posted on 11/16/2007 10:20:47 AM PST by meowmeow (In Loving Memory of Our Dear Viking Kitty (1987-2006))
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To: meowmeow

Only if you are trying to pass it off as legit currency.


8 posted on 11/16/2007 10:21:40 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

A few people pointed out that Ron Paul does not run this business concern. His face may appear on some of the coins, but I don’t think this title is accurate, “Illegal Ron Paul Currency Seized [more deatils, re: the ongoing “Liberty Dollar” follies]”

While I don’t think it was wise of Paul to let them use his likeness on the coins, and he may have received financial remunertion, he wasn’t an official of the company.

I’m not a Paul supporter by any means, but I don’t like the idea of making it look like this was his company.


9 posted on 11/16/2007 10:22:45 AM PST by DoughtyOne (California, where the death penalty is reserved for wholesome values. SB 777)
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To: DoughtyOne
I don’t think this title is accurate

Free Republic rules are that the complete original title must be used, when posting.

10 posted on 11/16/2007 10:24:19 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
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To: darkwing104

Smart guy....I’m wait and see too!


11 posted on 11/16/2007 10:25:21 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Pray for, and support our troops(heroes) !! And vote out the RINO's!!)
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To: Man50D

The Paulerrand.


12 posted on 11/16/2007 10:26:02 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

Does this mean that I have to turn in my Zoo Dollars.


13 posted on 11/16/2007 10:27:32 AM PST by DownInFlames (,)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

True Kent, and that’s why you shouldn’t have taken offense at what I stated. It was a given that you had nothing to do with it.


14 posted on 11/16/2007 10:28:10 AM PST by DoughtyOne (California, where the death penalty is reserved for wholesome values. SB 777)
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To: DownInFlames; Army Air Corps

“Only if you are trying to pass them off as legit currency.” [H/T to Army Air Corps] ;)


15 posted on 11/16/2007 10:28:44 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
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bump!


16 posted on 11/16/2007 10:29:41 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: DoughtyOne
True Kent, and that’s why you shouldn’t have taken offense at what I stated.

Dude: you're reading way, waaaaayyyyy more into a plainly neutral, vanilla response than is even remotely warranted. ;) No "offense," thank you; just figured you might not be aware, is all.

17 posted on 11/16/2007 10:30:36 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

We had all better learn to make our own money (a la moonshine)because if the Lib/Socialists get into power they will be taking it away faster than we can earn it.


18 posted on 11/16/2007 10:32:18 AM PST by Don Corleone (Leave the gun..take the cannoli)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
Is it any wonder that those who collect gold are paranoid about confiscation ?

PVC pipe capped on both ends and buried to a depth of...

19 posted on 11/16/2007 10:36:00 AM PST by jrsmc
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

No more Daffy Disciple Ducats, eh?


20 posted on 11/16/2007 10:36:30 AM PST by Hornitos
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

Hehheheheeheheeheheehe, damn these people are funny!


21 posted on 11/16/2007 10:37:52 AM PST by elhombrelibre (RUN Paul - a man proudly putting al Qaeda's interest ahead of America's.)
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To: Hornitos; Army Air Corps

“Only if you are trying to pass them off as legit currency.” [H/T to Army Air Corps] ;)


22 posted on 11/16/2007 10:38:39 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
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To: jrsmc

You should be paranoid if you are minting your own currency and selling it to others as legal tender.


23 posted on 11/16/2007 10:38:49 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

It seemed to me that you wouldn’t have responded in that manner unless you thought my comments were directed at you. And if you thought they were, it would be natural for me to think you were offended. No particular insult was intended. I wasn’t directing the comments at you.


24 posted on 11/16/2007 10:41:10 AM PST by DoughtyOne (California, where the death penalty is reserved for wholesome values. SB 777)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

Waco ... Elian ... and now Baron von Nut House ... But, unless the Feds are kicking in my door, I refuse to believe in conspiracy.

Just keep on repeating ... There are no black helicopters. Posse Comitatus has not been repealed. We need not concern ourselves with civil liberties. They’re only after the terrorists.


25 posted on 11/16/2007 10:41:15 AM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

For that libertarian or 911 truther who has everything:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&_trksid=m37&satitle=ron+paul+dollar&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=57223&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fgtp=

Those silver coins are going for over $200.


26 posted on 11/16/2007 10:43:08 AM PST by faq
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

I wonder if they could just claim the coins are “non-legal tender” as in bartering gold and silver ounces cast with likenesses for goods and services?


27 posted on 11/16/2007 10:46:23 AM PST by Hornitos
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To: DoughtyOne
It seemed to me that you wouldn’t have responded in that manner unless you thought my comments were directed at you.

You seem fairly (and inexplicably) intent upon taking some sort offense here, IMHO, for reason(s) I'm really not all that keen on ferreting out, quite frankly. If that's genuinely the case: not interested.

If not... then: FReegards. ;)

28 posted on 11/16/2007 10:48:27 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
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To: Hornitos

From what I understand, they can. The trouble is that they were referring to them as currency on their website. Also, they printed paper material (something like silver certificates). Also, what guarantees do the buyers have regarding metal content? Coins minted by governments are assayed and guaranteed as to gold, silver, or platinum content. How do this guy’s customers know that they are not buying coins with low precious metal content?


29 posted on 11/16/2007 10:55:31 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
Dangit! I was hoping to use a bunch of those bills to buy some investment buildings on Baltic and Mediterranean Avenues.
30 posted on 11/16/2007 10:58:02 AM PST by BlazingArizona
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To: faq
Those silver coins are going for over $200.

Damn! Silver is trading at for $14.45 per oz as I type this response.
31 posted on 11/16/2007 10:58:59 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: DoughtyOne

point well taken...but from the 9-11 truthers to the white supremists to these loons, he attracts a lot of nutjobs which is a concern....


32 posted on 11/16/2007 10:59:42 AM PST by God luvs America (When the silent majority speaks the earth trembles!)
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To: BlazingArizona

NOT "fiat currency." ;)

33 posted on 11/16/2007 11:01:02 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
34 posted on 11/16/2007 11:01:57 AM PST by pillut48 (CJ in TX --Soccer Mom and proud RUSH REPUBLICAN! WIN, FRED, WIN!!!)
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To: pillut48

What’s the gold content...? ;)


35 posted on 11/16/2007 11:02:42 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

Personally, the CEC coin has more value to me than a RP coin! :-) At least I can play a game or win a prize, LOL!

RP’s no prize, LOL.


36 posted on 11/16/2007 11:03:47 AM PST by pillut48 (CJ in TX --Soccer Mom and proud RUSH REPUBLICAN! WIN, FRED, WIN!!!)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

It’s a great scam. He sells his silver coins with a cost of about $10 or paper with a cost of about 20 cents. he charges $20.00 in real moeny for it, with a promise to redeem it for real US moeny again any time you want it.

But they are rarely redeemed. So the “issuer” sells 20 cents of paper for 20 dollars....

Now he can keep all the real dollars he has hidden, claiming Uncle Fed took all his funds.

To us, he holds himself out to be Conservative. To the anti-war leftist, he is one of them. To the Ronpaulians, he is..........

It’s a scam, and a good one


37 posted on 11/16/2007 11:06:07 AM PST by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in Vietnam meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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To: Hornitos

This is not legal tender is written all over the stuff. This is not really enough of a defense, since the Feds do want to prevent counterfeiters from passing illegal currency irrespective of whether it has the appropriate disclaimer “hidden in plain sight.”

With regard to the Ron Paul coin, this is clearly an expression of political speech, and should have the highest protection under the Constitution. While it might look like a $1 coin, giving somebody a coin made out of silver for a $1 debt is not exactly ripping anybody off. Thus, no harm to anybody. Thus, not illegal. With regard to the $1776 bill, this is also clearly an expression of poltiical speech. While it looks like a Federal Reserve Note, its denomination, $1776, is so unusual as to preclude its circulation as money. Again, no harm.

If the Feds were serious about preventing illegal currency, they would have long ago arrested the left-wing communalists of Ithaca New York, who circulate their own currency. But, the dopers and hippie freaks of that place have nothing to fear from the Feds, because they’re not trying to re-establish the U.S. Constitution.

It’s no coincidence that the Feds raided Baron von Nut House’s little enterprise after Ron Paul starting registering in the polls.


38 posted on 11/16/2007 11:09:13 AM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
If you have one of these, and you support Ron Paul, you are a Paul bearer twice over.


39 posted on 11/16/2007 11:15:46 AM PST by cynwoody
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To: cynwoody

“Vote for Truth”
How appropriate considering he courts the Trufers.


40 posted on 11/16/2007 11:23:13 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
They've already changed businesses at the Liberty Coin store:

Before:

After:


42 posted on 11/16/2007 11:30:10 AM PST by 50mm (Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist - G. Carlin)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Army Air Corps

The Franklin Mint, which is the world’s largest private minter of coins, has such a good reputation that it produces commemorative coins for many goverments of the world. (I should point out that NORFED is a different company.)

Private companies have never caused inflation, whether through the debasement of coins or through paper money, as governments have. The reason is simple. It is illegal for private companies to say something that isn’t silver (or gold) is silver (or gold). Of course, in the case of the Liberty Dollar, the person who accepts the paper certificates of the company (as opposed to its coins) has to rely on the signed audit of the inventory of the company, and we all know that you can’t completely trust CPA firms (or anybody else). (I always recommend that people diversify their wealth.)

The use of coins and paper money by Constitutionalists as expressions of political speech is very appropriate.

From their perspective, the writing out of the Constituteion the provision that only gold and silver would be legal tender, and that bills of credit (government-issued paper money) are prohibited, is part and parcel of the growth of big government in our country.

Where we once had a federal government of limited and enumerated powers, we now have a federal government that can make it illegal for you to grow marijuana on your own property and consume it while on your own property, because if you didn’t do that, you might buy government-sanctioned drugs such as prescription drugs or alcohol and, thus, your consumption of marijuana affects inter-state commerce. Any true conservative, such as Sandra Day O’Conner, who wrote the dissent in that case, would feel like our Constitution is completely without any protection of individual liberty or property (except that being homosexual acts are absolutely protected).

For some people, it’s the abortion issue that illustrates how powerful government has become, that life itself, of the weak and defenseless, is no longer protected. For others, it’s the 2nd Amendment. But, whether we’re talking about freedom of religion, freedom of expression, the right to privacy, or the other rights in the Constitution or simply understood by everyone to be our rights at the Founding, for libertarians all of our rights are part of one right, namely, that right that comes from being sons and daughters of God who is Lord over all, including of the kings of this world.


44 posted on 11/16/2007 11:31:47 AM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: mogambo

no, it’s historical fact that governments debased their coins


45 posted on 11/16/2007 11:35:18 AM PST by ari-freedom (I am for traditional moral values, a strong national defense, and free markets.)
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: MindBender26

The point you make (concerning the physical amount of silver in the coin) is well taken, and it’s the reason I don’t buy any of this money. You can do better buying bullion coins, if what you want to do is include some precious metal in your portfolio. (There are yet other ways.) This particular company tries to increase its profit by making commemorative coins with images and so forth that are emotionally appealing to particular buyers, and, similarly, with the paper certificates. I wouldn’t call this a scam, anymore than selling Harley’s is a scam. In business, you make money by serving your cusomters well, and there are many different kinds of people out there.


47 posted on 11/16/2007 11:38:46 AM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: Redmen4ever

A coin as speech is fine and I agree it is appropriate. This guy, however, IS a huckster. He tries to ride a fine line by claiming the coins as “currency” while simultaneously denying that they are currency. If you want gold coins, then buy coins like the Maple Leaf, American Eagle, etc. and not stuff from a charlatan who plays on people’s sentiment. You mentioned the Franlin Mint. The Franklin Mint has permission from countries to make those commemorative coins.

Also, I have no problem with barter. I do have a problem with someone who is duping people with a scam.


48 posted on 11/16/2007 11:43:09 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: mogambo
You are pulling a sleight of hand and implying (falsely) that since it is not fiat money then it is ILlegitimate as a means of exchange (at least that seems what you are claiming. if Iam wrong, please correct me).

No, I am not saying that. Just because this guy is getting people to buy his homemade coins when they could buy assayed coins doesn't make him a monetary hero. It makes his customers dupes. If you want gold coins, then buy gold that is guaranteed as to content.
50 posted on 11/16/2007 11:46:36 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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