Mormons, Mayans and Mystery

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 17 Nov 2007 | Peggy Fletcher Stack

[nesnah]

Wow, you are really deluded in your interpretation of some very obvious statements. I know it’s hard for you to let go, but you are following a lie.

[Vigilanteman]

Interesting stuff. In my youth, I was befriended by an anthropologist named Ed Milligan who told me a number of interesting Indian stories including this one.

So far as I know, Milligan had no connection with the Mormon Church, but he was a maverick in his field because he believed more of the ancient American peoples came from the south, probably by sea, and moved northward rather than migrated over the Bearing Strait land bridge as is more popular in the field.

Most compelling about Ed's theory was not the ancient legends which collaborated it, but the observable fact that the level of ancient civilization decreased rather than increased when moving south to north. If the Bearing Straight theory was such an ironclad fact, then we ought to have ruins along the coast of say, modern day British Columbia which rival those of the Inca in Peru.

[Coyoteman]

Most compelling about Ed's theory was not the ancient legends which collaborated it, but the observable fact that the level of ancient civilization decreased rather than increased when moving south to north. If the Bearing Straight theory was such an ironclad fact, then we ought to have ruins along the coast of say, modern day British Columbia which rival those of the Inca in Peru.

Sorry, that is a simplistic version of prehistory.

Civilizations arose around the world in areas with specific conditions. British Columbia does not have those conditions.

The conditions favoring civilizations are those which favored agriculture. In rich hunting/gathering areas, such as British Columbia, native groups followed a different path, and achieved high populations and cohesive social organizations, based on hunting/gathering and specialization, but not agriculture.

In other, less rich areas (semi-arid or arid deserts with good water supplies), agriculture was an alternate path. It often led to agricultural surpluses (to last the winter), which in turn often led to walled cities and part-time armies to protect that surplus from marauders.

So far as I know, Milligan had no connection with the Mormon Church, but he was a maverick in his field because he believed more of the ancient American peoples came from the south, probably by sea, and moved northward rather than migrated over the Bearing Strait land bridge as is more popular in the field.

The DNA studies do not support this idea. Following is a link to a very recent article on the DNA of the founding New World populations. It is titled Beringian Standstill and Spread of Native American Founders, by Erika Tamm et al. (2007).

[broncobilly]

I’m sorry, but your desire for a “gotcha” is getting the best of you. That is not an exact transcript of what JS said. They didn’t have tape recorders in that day. And the sermon was not given from a pre-written text. You have to depend on context. JS was giving a morning sermon, and two people in the congregation were trying their best to keep up with him and write down what he said. The sentence you quote is in the account of Thomas Bullock, and the original of that has been lost. The other person trying to keep up with JS was Willard Richards, and he does not include that statement.
But even if it was accurate, it still does not make a general statement about who has done the most. JS has said just the opposite in other places. I think you know I am right. You would just like people to jump to the wrong conclusion.

[swmobuffalo]

“NEWLY FOUND ALTARS FROM NAHOM”

LOL Find me an unbiased site. Not BYU!

[ruthles]

Chinese also use the blood of a lamb to indicate forgiveness. Does this mean they were Jews??? HAHAHa

[TheDon]

Most compelling about Ed's theory was not the ancient legends which collaborated it, but the observable fact that the level of ancient civilization decreased rather than increased when moving south to north. If the Bearing Straight theory was such an ironclad fact, then we ought to have ruins along the coast of say, modern day British Columbia which rival those of the Inca in Peru.

Quite interesting.

[delacoert]

Non-Mormon archaeologists take the whole thing "as a complete fantasy, that this is a big waste of time,"

[labette]

I am interested in old “Indian” legends. {I can’t get your link to work}

[TheDon]

William G. Dever (head of Near Eastern Studies Department and professor of Near Eastern archaeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona), a non-Mormon biblical archaeologist claims that “it should never be supposed that the purpose of archaeology was to ‘prove’ the Bible in any sense” (Dever, 1990a, 26; italics added). He notes elsewhere:

The Bible . . . has its limitations as a historical document. . . . The myths of Genesis 1-11, comprising the “primeval history,” which deal with the creation, the flood and the distant origins of the family of man, can be read today as deeply moving literature, with profound moral implications. They inform us about the thought-world of ancient Israel, but they can hardly be read in the literal or modern sense as history. (Dever, 1990b, 52.)

And,

...while archaeology has been able to document in general the pastoral nomadic lifestyle depicted in Genesis throughout the second millennium B.C. (and other periods), it has not brought to light any direct evidence to substantiate the story that Abraham lived, that he migrated from Mesopotamia to Canaan, or that there was a Joseph who found his way to Egypt and rose top power there. ...The tradition is made up of legends that still may be regarded as containing moral truths, but until now they have been of uncertain historical provenance. ...Absolutely no trace of Moses, or indeed of an Israelite presence in Egypt, has ever turned up. Of the exodus and wander in the wilderness— events so crucial in the Biblical recitation of the “mighty acts of God”— we have no evidence whatsoever; nor are we likely to have any, since slaves, serfs, and nomads leave few traces in the archaeological record. (Dever, 1990a, 24.)

“...after a century of modern research,” writes Dever, “neither Biblical scholars nor archaeologists have been able to document as historical any of the events, much less the personalities, of the patriarchal or Mosaic era” (ibid., 5).

[MHGinTN]

It is a curious phenomenon at FR of late (since Romney chose to run for president) that Mormonism Apologists seem to think denigrating the Bible somehow lends credulity to their fantasy literature like the BofM and the PofGP, etc.

[Young Werther]

There is evidence that Jesus might have visited Tibet during the 18 years when he traveled in the wilderness.

Here is one of many websires that chronicle the travels.

Jesus' Travels

[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

I believe in freedom of religion...

But these Mormon beliefs are wacky!

[restornu]

You are in errpr that is not from “Mormon apologist” these are from non LDS sources!

[MHGinTN]

I’m referring to the posters on this thread, like you!

[restornu]

I believe in freedom of religion...

But these Mormon beliefs are wacky!

Are you speaking as Christian or as a natural man?

[restornu]

I’m referring to the posters on this thread, like you!

You made your comment in reference to post 60 which I did not post MHG!

Please show me the post of me denigrating the Bible?

[proudpapa]

The “First Vision” story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith’s own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith’s diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified “personage” appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many “angels,” which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?

Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the “First Vision.” The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later.

In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.

Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and “seer stones.” Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. NOTES It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered “great persecution” for telling people of his vision.

The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them “liars.”

Smith produced most of the “translation” not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same “seer stone” he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.

The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic, as proven by recent DNA studies), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.

The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.

Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 “correct,” many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition’s acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced “white” with “pure,” apparently to reflect the change in the church’s stance on the “curse” of the black race.

Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the “fulness of the gospel.” However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church’s position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.

Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.

Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title “prophet, seer and revelator”), the successive “prophets” have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion’s Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet. A recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church and its “prophet, seer and revelator” accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide.

The secret temple ritual (the “endowment”) was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its “pure” and “original” (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the “pure and original” ritual as “restored” by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.

Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and “eternal”, have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one “everlasting” position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);
- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God’s priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner’s blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities);

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, “eternal,” “everlasting,” to govern the church “forevermore.” All have been abandoned by the present church.

Joseph Smith’s early revelations were collected and first published in 1833 in the Book of Commandments. God (as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants Sections 1 and 67) supposedly testified by revelation that the revelations as published were true and correct. Because the Book of Commandments did not receive wide distribution (most copies were destroyed by angry opponents of the Mormons in Missouri, where it was published), they were republished - with additional revelations - as the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835 in Kirtland, Ohio. However, many of the revelations as published in Kirtland differed fundamentally from their versions as originally given. The changes generally gave more power and authority to Smith, and justified changes he was making in church organization and theology. The question naturally arises as to why revelations which God had pronounced correct needed to be revised.

Joseph Smith claimed to be a “translator” by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other “translations”:

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham “by his own hand.” Smith’s translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an “Egyptian Grammar” based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The “Grammar” has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.

- The “Inspired Revision” of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.

- The “Kinderhook Plates,” a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a “translation” of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an “ancient record,” and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.

Joseph Smith claimed to be a “prophet.” He frequently prophesied future events “by the power of God.” Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred.

Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned “King of the Kingdom of God.”

Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history.

Mormonism includes many other unusual doctrines which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These doctrines are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than “milk” as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy:

God was once a man like us.
God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
God (”Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
Jesus and Satan (”Lucifer”) are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
“God” (”Jehovah”) in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament.
In the the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a “pre-existence”, during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.

[TheDon]

Some folks seem a bit touchy when you point out that arguments against the BoM can also be used against the Bible. Yet Mormons believe both are inspired by God.

[MHGinTN]

What? Are you not a Mormon? Are you not a Mitt Romney promoter?... the ‘like you’ refers to the Romney supporter characteristic. Does that help?

[MHGinTN]

I think Jesus referred to this Mormonism Apologetics methodology as the weeds choking the good seed just when it starts to grow.

[Hornitos]

Well, that is kind of a whacky thing to [believe].

Indeed, but all our ideas about heaven and God are ultimately wrong, as they fall far, far short of the Reality.

[restornu]

I guess we should ask Joseph Smith. But, then again, Joseph seemed to be a little snooty with regard to Jesus Christ. As I recall, he boasted that he had done more than JC ever did.

If you really understood you scripture there were several dispensation and each one was a retoration of the Doctrine and Covenants of the Lord.

The reason for dispensation was because each one had in time become corrupted and fell into apostasy.

Moses was the last one before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ was over 400 years the earth was with out the Lord pristhood!

Shortly after Jesus was Crusified it was not long before all the apostles were also killed of died off and the Lord Church fell into apostasy again.

In 1830 the Last Dispensation was on the earth again and never to be taken away until...

D&C 13:
1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness

Now the Lord Church has been on the earth 177 years longer than any other dispensaiton.

And this is all that Joseph met by what he said he was surprised that it happen on his watch it was a joyful awareness.

2 Cor 10
8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

2 Cor.7
13 Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.

14 For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.

15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

16 I rejoice therefore that I have confidence in you in all things.

[TheDon]

We both have to deal with Anti-Christian attacks on our faith, such as those found at: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

Mormons also get to deal with those who attack our faith. At least you know we got your back on faith in Jesus Christ! :-)

[restornu]

Some folks seem a bit touchy when you point out that arguments against the BoM can also be used against the Bible. Yet Mormons believe both are inspired by God.

And that is their feelings on it, but in reality it proves again that scriputre is to be taken on faith.

Should some corporal evidence appear all the more merrier but in all truth the Lord wants the focus on him and doing his will.

Many are so earth bound instead of elevating their thoughts!

[MHGinTN]

Thanks, but I don’t need it, friend. I can shoot those arguments into the toilet where they belong without assistance now. Incidentally, I do not make assertions that any ceertain individual is not a Christian. I do oppose Mormonism as non-Christian.

[restornu]

Gee isn’t cut and paste nice!:)

[restornu]

What does this have to do with post 60?

[RJR_fan]

Are you speaking as Christian or as a natural man?

Speaking as a Christian who has esteemed Mormon friends -- their beliefs are wacky. The Christian God doesn't have a harem tucked away on the planet Kolab, for example.

[Vigilanteman]

Try this:

http://www.geocities.com/statechurch/tehcumseh.htm

[Tribune7]

I have now :-)

[Army Air Corps]

Good stuff, no?

[Tribune7]

Good stuff, yes.

[whipitgood]

Thanks Papa! VERY interesting information. Can you provide references for this part of your statement?
“The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.”

[restornu]

Neither does the LDS!

Sorry but just your thoughts of what you said are natural man thinking!

[okie01]

Having seen pictures of temple carvings of what the Maya thought Quetzalcoatl looked like I would have to say the Maya did not think he look Jewish.

How do you know He looked Jewish? A lot of Semitic Jews today don't really look "Jewish".

It's not a semantic argument. It's a precision argument.

[terycarl]

of course Jesus was caucasian.....he certainly wasn’t negroid nor was he mongoloid.....there are only three races on earth......he was caucasian

[Saundra Duffy]

“Try to keep the LDS bashing off the thread”

Too late.

To the anti Mormons: Where is your proof of Noah’s Ark? Where is the Ark? Where is the Ark of the Covenant? Where is Moses’ body? Where are a lot of things unexplained in the holy scriptures.

I am so sick of this anti Mormon garbage.

[Pontiac]

he was caucasian

He certainly would under no circumstances have been considered pale in complexion.

I can not be persuaded that the Aztecs or Maya would have found him to be white.

[Saundra Duffy]

Just visited the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit in San Diego. There are scriptures inscribed on copper plates. Mormons believe scriptures were en-graven on plates of brass and gold. There is also a scroll among the Dead Sea Scrolls entitled “The Alma Scroll” that mentions “Alma son of Judah” which is the first time outside the Book of Mormon where the man’s name Alma is mentioned.

But why do I even bother?

[Pontiac]

A lot of Semitic Jews today don't really look "Jewish".

You are correct.

However Jesus was not born and bred today. He was born and bred 2000 years ago to a Hebrew woman with unbroken Semitic linage.

Jesus mother would have had brown skin as would I imagine her son.

[Saundra Duffy]

BYU scholars, engineers, scientists, etc., are well known and well respected. It is horrible for you to insult the good fine people at BYU. It shows your ignorance, bigotry and rudeness.

[Saundra Duffy]

Do you believe that Jonah lived 3 days in the belly of a great fish? Wow, that’s kind of hard to believe! But I believe it and every word in the Bible - and I believe every word in the Book of Mormon. Do you believe the Catholics are “wacky” for believing in extra books in their Bible?

[swmobuffalo]

“BYU scholars, engineers, scientists, etc., are well known and well respected. It is horrible for you to insult the good fine people at BYU. It shows your ignorance, bigotry and rudeness.”

and this only shows your stupidity and the fact that you ASSUMED the above. I want an UNBIASED SOURCE, not a Mormon based source.

[Coyoteman]

of course Jesus was caucasian.....he certainly wasn’t negroid nor was he mongoloid.....there are only three races on earth......he was caucasian

The number of races depends on your criteria.

Where would you put Australoids? They don't fit into any of the three groups you mentioned. How about the Negritos? The Sami?

Some race scholars see 30 or 40 or 50 microraces. And that is just using the classical (visible) traits. When you start adding genetic traits you get a whole different picture. Visible traits largely reflect adaptations to climate, while genetic traits reflect descent.

Things are not as simple as they seem.

[swmobuffalo]

So the Mormons are now laying claim to the Dead Sea Scrolls?

[stryker2008]

Although the LDS church are off a bit, they don’t hold a candle to the catholic church. However, Duncan Hunter is catholic I believe, but I am still supporting him to the hilt. Even if gasp Romney or Rudy get the nod, they are still better than hillary who will theologically be closerl than romney or rudy. Fair enough?
Stryker

[oprahstheantichrist]

4later

[delacoert]

Do you believe the Catholics are “wacky” for believing in extra books in their Bible?

[delacoert]

It is horrible for you to insult the good fine people at BYU.

Oh drop it down an octave. He asked for an unbiased site.